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-   -   Shop Rebuilt 2.7 - Issues. Opinions please. (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/972687-shop-rebuilt-2-7-issues-opinions-please.html)

submerge 10-04-2017 03:35 PM

Shop Rebuilt 2.7 - Issues. Opinions please.
 
Hi,
1977 2.7 911S
Complete rebuild. Case line bored, crank polished, heads, valves, every seal, gasket... everything.

After a couple hundred miles I brought the engine back because of an oil leak. Its a mag case, I understand, but the leak was straight onto my exhaust. Smelling, smoking and super annoying for a new engine. They pulled the engine, found a valve cover leak, rocker arm shafts where worn and creating a leak and one other from an oil line to the reservoir. I got a new turbo valve cover (mine was warped), replaced lines. I also mentioned the car ran hot, multiple time in traffic. The sealant for the oil return tubes had dripped down onto the case (black and hardened drip). Apparently this only happens when the engine is hotter than normal.

Leak did not stop, but I drove another couple hundred miles and a hose came off in the back of the engine from the airbox down to the case. Oil is sprinkled everywhere and smoke coming out of the engine bay like a fire while I'm in traffic on the freeway. Pull over, can't see the hose because its in back and I just have the car towed in. I'm about at the 500 mile service anyway.

Engine out, find the hose. "By the way your oil cooler has been the culprit of the leaking." Ok, so I go find another (tested and cleaned) cooler and they install. After installing they check the oil thermostat on the case (not the external) and it seems to have been binding up and not working correctly. So, I go get a new oil thermostat and they install.

Engine goes back in, car warms up and cam tower seals start leaking. I don't know exactly what that is, some seal or 0-ring on the chain housing I'm assuming. The theory is that the thermostat wasn't functioning, so oil pressure was building up and not flowing through the cooler, "boiling" the oil he said. This pressure has now resulted in the other new seals starting to leak. Engine comes back out, heads have to come off to change the seals.

Should I expect to be paying to have this engine removed 3 times and the labor to change these seals?

I'm frustrated with the whole process to say the least. I'm now looking at $2k in labor on an engine that has just under 500 miles on it. Not to mention the new parts.

Is this just a bad scenario? I mean I understand you have to test and eliminate variables, I've worked as a mechanic and get it.

Thanks for reading if you made it though this novel.

manbridge 74 10-04-2017 03:56 PM

Take it to someone who knows Porsche engines. There is no sealant used on oil return tubes. Probably many more issues will be uncovered.

submerge 10-04-2017 03:57 PM

Pics
 
I helped here and there, but didn't have much time. Did take some photos ...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1507161330.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1507161330.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1507161330.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1507161330.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1507161330.jpg

submerge 10-04-2017 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manbridge 74 (Post 9763387)
Take it to someone who knows Porsche engines. There is no sealant used on oil return tubes. Probably many more issues will be uncovered.

Ha. They know Porsche engines, I'm not at jiffy lube or anything. You wet the seals with dielectric grease or similar so that is what ran down under heat.

bpu699 10-04-2017 05:46 PM

Sorry to hear... I would think the shop is responsible for repairs... Unless a part you provided failed...

Are those dilivar head studs you used?

fanaudical 10-04-2017 08:15 PM

Couple of questions/observations:

- You've got 500 miles on the motor. What temperatures did you observe on the temp gauge during your drives? Was it running much past 210F?

- What kind of oil pressures did you observe when engine was cold and hot?

- The on-engine oil cooler is subjected to oil pressure if the thermostat is open or closed. "Boiling" the oil should result in high engine temps and low oil pressure at idle.

submerge 10-04-2017 08:31 PM

Yes, I hit the 230 range probably 3 times. All in relatively low speed city driving or freeway traffic. I never really trust my oil pressure gauge as it tends to bounce around, so I wasn't tracking it very closely.

Would there be a lot of added oil pressure if the thermostat wasn't functioning? Enough to start to cause new seals to leak? I'm curious why these seals would start leaking after the thermostat issue was sorted out. Idea?


Thanks for reading.



Quote:

Originally Posted by fanaudical (Post 9763748)
Couple of questions/observations:

- You've got 500 miles on the motor. What temperatures did you observe on the temp gauge during your drives? Was it running much past 210F?

- What kind of oil pressures did you observe when engine was cold and hot?

- The on-engine oil cooler is subjected to oil pressure if the thermostat is open or closed. "Boiling" the oil should result in high engine temps and low oil pressure at idle.


manbridge 74 10-04-2017 09:26 PM

Was your oil pressure gauge bouncing around before the work? These VDO gauges are quite accurate when used with correct senders. Maybe oil pump seals were pushed out of position when case halves were joined.

stownsen914 10-05-2017 03:16 AM

Sorry to hear of the troubles. Pretty disappointing for a newly rebuilt engine I'm sure. 230 degrees is warm (not hot) for a 911 engine. That temp will not damage seals or cause them to leak. Thermostat not working is an issue if it's the case, but would not cause an oil pressure issue. What oil pressure are you seeing?

It's possible we've lost something in translation from your mechanic, but your description makes it sound like your guy made some mistakes and is leaving you to pay for them ...

submerge 10-05-2017 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stownsen914 (Post 9763858)
Sorry to hear of the troubles. Pretty disappointing for a newly rebuilt engine I'm sure. 230 degrees is warm (not hot) for a 911 engine. That temp will not damage seals or cause them to leak. Thermostat not working is an issue if it's the case, but would not cause an oil pressure issue. What oil pressure are you seeing?

It's possible we've lost something in translation from your mechanic, but your description makes it sound like your guy made some mistakes and is leaving you to pay for them ...




Oil pressure on the gauge was never high, the gauge always read as normal. In regards to my previous comment about the gauge I was thinking of the oil level gauge bouncing around. I haven't been in the car much lately, wansnt thinking of the correct gauge.

submerge 10-05-2017 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manbridge 74 (Post 9763782)
Was your oil pressure gauge bouncing around before the work? These VDO gauges are quite accurate when used with correct senders. Maybe oil pump seals were pushed out of position when case halves were joined.

Oil pressure gauge was normal this whole time, I was thinking of oil level and hastily writing. No exceptional pressure variation from typical running. The gauge was always reading correct oil pressure from standard operating activity.

submerge 10-05-2017 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanaudical (Post 9763748)
Couple of questions/observations:

- You've got 500 miles on the motor. What temperatures did you observe on the temp gauge during your drives? Was it running much past 210F?

- What kind of oil pressures did you observe when engine was cold and hot?

- The on-engine oil cooler is subjected to oil pressure if the thermostat is open or closed. "Boiling" the oil should result in high engine temps and low oil pressure at idle.

The gauge was not reading low pressure at idle. Pressure between 20-60 at idle and light accelarion.

75 911s 10-05-2017 11:38 AM

I would look at the original engine rebuild cost. I was surprised to hear that the new rebuild did not include rocker shafts. I think the shafts and arms can be sent out to supertec or other builders to be rebushed. On an engine that is that old, that would seem like a given.

The hose off the back just happened to me. It can be reached without dropping the engine...

did you say you have a fender mount cooler? or just the on engine cooler?

proporsche 10-05-2017 11:52 AM

Hi Submerge..this does not make a sense to me..

They pulled the engine, found a valve cover leak, rocker arm shafts where worn and creating a leak and one other from an oil line to the reservoir. I got a new turbo valve cover (mine was warped), replaced lines. I also mentioned the car ran hot, multiple time in traffic. The sealant for the oil return tubes had dripped down onto the case (black and hardened drip)....
if i do an egine rebuild i would check the rocker arms and shafts.The only way it would leak would be they did not install the shafts in the right place.
Also who gave you or who`s hands an idea to use on the cylinders the Curil?? I have never seen that and i have never had to use anything on the copper rings when i do engines.Also what sealant is leaking from the oil r.tubes there should be nothing on them except a little oil while installing the camshaft housings.

You are sure they know Porsche 911 engines??


Ivan

Jack Stands 10-05-2017 05:23 PM

Id take it to Henry at Supertec in Fallbrook, CA. Youve already had them playing with it too often.

Flat6pac 10-05-2017 05:48 PM

Sending it to Henry relieves the shop of any responsibility once he touches it.
Bruce

submerge 10-05-2017 08:46 PM

I'll be going in tomorrow, car should be done. I have a laundry list of topics to discuss, thankful for this forum to confirm my theories.

submerge 10-05-2017 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75 911s (Post 9764386)
I would look at the original engine rebuild cost. I was surprised to hear that the new rebuild did not include rocker shafts. I think the shafts and arms can be sent out to supertec or other builders to be rebushed. On an engine that is that old, that would seem like a given.

The hose off the back just happened to me. It can be reached without dropping the engine...

did you say you have a fender mount cooler? or just the on engine cooler?

Trombone up front.

submerge 10-05-2017 09:19 PM

[QUOTE=stownsen914;9763858] Thermostat not working is an issue if it's the case, but would not cause an oil pressure issue.

Are we all 100% sure this is true? Because I had no experience with this issue and didn't really know what to say when he presented this as the cause.

Needless to say if this is true I will be leaning on this info very hard.

Thanks

Dpmulvan 10-06-2017 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proporsche (Post 9764408)
Hi Submerge..this does not make a sense to me..

They pulled the engine, found a valve cover leak, rocker arm shafts where worn and creating a leak and one other from an oil line to the reservoir. I got a new turbo valve cover (mine was warped), replaced lines. I also mentioned the car ran hot, multiple time in traffic. The sealant for the oil return tubes had dripped down onto the case (black and hardened drip)....
if i do an egine rebuild i would check the rocker arms and shafts.The only way it would leak would be they did not install the shafts in the right place.
Also who gave you or who`s hands an idea to use on the cylinders the Curil?? I have never seen that and i have never had to use anything on the copper rings when i do engines.Also what sealant is leaking from the oil r.tubes there should be nothing on them except a little oil while installing the camshaft housings.

You are sure they know Porsche 911 engines??


Ivan

A lot of people use Curil on the cylinders.


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