3.2 liter short stroke

[fredmeister]

Wayne,
I was wondering if you could give me some detail on the coverage in your new 911 Engine rebuild book.
I specifically was wondering on the coverage of engine modifications. I have a 3.0 liter 911SC engine that I am considering making a 3.2 liter short stroke. I am already running 964 cams in it now.
Is this particular upgrade covered in detail in your book? I am interested in Mahle versus JE piston design and benefits/cons of each. How about 964 camshaft issues with this set-up?
Do you offer other modifications to this engine series, similar to the way Bruce Anderson’s book does on engine combinations and estimated horsepower results?
Any info would be appreciated before I purchase it from Pelican.
Thanks,
Fred Seebeck
Design Engineer

[surflvr911sc]

I have the same questions.

Hey, where is that book?

[Wayne 962]

The short stroke 3.2 liter engine is in my table of Wayne's Engine Picks. I mention the upgrade of the 964 cams in the book as a good profile to upgrade, and I also include the timing specs in the Appendices. Other than that, there isn't too much you can say about the 964 cam swap, other than the fact you have to grind off the power steering pump. I would recommend instead of having your original cams reground to the 964 profile instead...

I have a big table with lots of common, proven, engine combinations, and approximately what the HP output and 'feel' will be (power band).

I recommend the JE pistons, and I do discuss the differences in the book. JEs allow you to custom build just about any engine you like...

The book is being printed right now in Hong Kong. I should have a copy in my hands at the end of Feb, and the rest when the boat gets here from China...

-Wayne

[john_colasante]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
The book is being printed right now in Hong Kong. I should have a copy in my hands at the end of Feb, and the rest when the boat gets here from China...

Wayne's book transport, the Kon-tiki:

[fredmeister]

Looks like he is trying to save costs like the big three and outsourcing to China. Hope the quality turns out better than their track records so far. Hope that they still have room on that boat for the books after all the illegals are boarded, ha,ha.

[speeder]

I am rebuilding my SC motor right now and considered the 3.2 slip-ins from Mahle, (9.8 CR), biggest problem w/ those is that exactly one place in the country has them for sale and they are $3458+tax. Add in the other parts and labor if you are not rebuilding engine anyways and those would be the most expensive ponies this side of Kentucky.

[cstreit]

You know Mahle is sold from 4 different US sources now right? The price on mine from the one in Dallas was $200 cheaper than Andial.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by cstreit
You know Mahle is sold from 4 different US sources now right? The price on mine from the one in Dallas was $200 cheaper than Andial.

I called the other places, and none of them had the 9.8:1 98mm jugs. The guys in Texas didn't seem to think they existed. All he had on his list from Mahle was 10.5:1. It may have been 10.3, but in any case too much for pump gas on 1 plug, so I wasn't interested. On California gas 9.8:1 is probably too high for 1 plug. Dammit.

One of the other places, the guy I spoke with (refered to him from Mahle USA) used to work at Andial, and said he had only managed to bring 1 set into the country. He thought maybe the reason Andial could get them because they dealt with Mahle Germany, not Mahle USA.

Another interesting point, Bruce Anderson's book lists 2 different 98mm Mahle sets, CIS top and Max Moritz dome-tops, both with 9.3:1 compression. No 9.8:1 are listed.

So Wayne, you are done with that book now, so get cracking and track us down some of those mythical 98mm 9.3:1 sets

Tom

[fredmeister]

I wanted to add the following after observing all the reponses on this post.
I was interested in retaining the stock CIS system with this upgrade to 98mm pistons. That means some sort of funny dome shape will be required on these to match the stock 95mm domes. I am sure Mahle developed this crazy shape with Porsche for a reason, and I would only want to change to something proven to be more performance oriented with the CIS system (no emmissions to worry about now).
Is this what Max Moritz developed with his dome tops?
They will need to work with 964 cams as well.
Another question very relevant is what head modifications will be required to use these? Someone mentioned some machining on the cylinder heads with the Mahle set, but none with J&E why?

[fredmeister]

bump

[Wayne 962]

You know, I hear that the funky dome shape didn't work very well, and it's not really needed for a CIS system. I can't remember where I heard this - might have been Jerry or Bruce.

After looking at the performance of JE pistons, I would think that it would be true - the JEs do not have the funky dome shape and work perfectly fine in the CIS cars with limited modifications. I think that Noah has JEs in his Euro 3.0L...

-Wayne

[fredmeister]

Anyone experience delamination of the nicasil coating on the JE cylinders? I was concerned with the ability to machine 95mmm jugs out to 98mm diameter and replate them with Nicasil to the same quality of the Mahles. Piston slap and noise issues don't bother me as much as longevity of these parts.
Does anyone have alot of miles on the JE set-ups that can comment on them?

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by fredmeister
Anyone experience delamination of the nicasil coating on the JE cylinders? I was concerned with the ability to machine 95mmm jugs out to 98mm diameter and replate them with Nicasil to the same quality of the Mahles. Piston slap and noise issues don't bother me as much as longevity of these parts.
Does anyone have alot of miles on the JE set-ups that can comment on them?

Hi Fred,
JE's doesn't make the cylinders, just the pistons for these conversions. I had a set delaminate but only under severe conditions that destroyed the pistons as well. If you have stock SC cylinders (with sealing grooves at the top) you can't rebore and plate them.
-Chris
Edit: I meant you can't rebore them to 98mm and replate them.

[emcon5]

EBS offers a cylinder refurbishing service. As I understand it, they replate your alusil jugs with nikasil and sell a set of JE's that match. I think Leland had EBS refurb'd jugs.

When I looked into it, the cost to refurbish with new JE's was $1900, where a new set of Mahles is ~$2500. For me, the price savings isn't worth it, and I am getting Mahles. Compresion rato TBA.

Unless Waybe scores me a set of 98mm cheap

Tom

[kellzey]

For a 3.2 short stroke,

The 98mm 9.5:1 Mahle P&Cs advertised by Andial that are optimized for carbs and pocketed for agressive cams are not available from Andial any longer.

Peter Sanchez at Andial says they were having issues with the P&Cs. They measured the compression on the sets and they were actually 8.2:1. These sets were priced at about $3K.

So what's the next best option? JEs and replated cylinders? I'd like to hear the pros and cons of this option.

Are there other options?

Regards,