Jeff,

I thought at this point I should chime in.

I am terribly sorry you have had so much trouble in getting the sprockets installed. This is the first time there has been a problem and I commend you on your approach to the problems.

The pins are a standard roller that had to be ordered from Germany in a lot of 2000. They are the closest in length that I can buy without grinding. If the sprockets are fitted so that the pin sits on the cam in the slot, there should not be any problem as the fat washer that sits under the retaining bolt keeps it flush with the outside surface.

I had a BMW dealer in Sydney fit cams to my 'S'. The regular top line technician had put his back out. A less than satisfactory technician that normally works on Triumphs did the job. End result was that the stock sprocket alignment nib was not aligned with the cam slot and it almost flattened the nib. I spoke to the dealer and had to get a new sprocket to replace tha damaged item.

I know this does not help your situation, but when fitting the sprockets be very careful that the pins sits correctly in the cam slot. You can check this looking down the cam chain tunnel from the rocker box to see that the washer sits flush with the cam sprocket.

What a waste of a nice machine. Poorly fitting parts installed late at night with some what less than shop tools. I would sure hate to be the guy that ends up with this bike at trade in time.

There is a lot that could have occured here that has not been mentioned......not the least of which are the current conditions of the rocker arms. You may well have subjected them to undure pressure so that they want exactly break........for now at least.........but may snap later down the high rev line.

Check the condition of wrist pin and rod play as well. Check the clips. And do not forget to replace the guides that were holding the valves that bent. Check the keepers for distortion as well. (Valve retainer fit can be deceptive)

Matt,
The bike is good just the way it is for now. I like this bike and don't plan on selling it. It has a place in my garage to go with the airhead.

Flatbutt,
Thank you for your comment, but I'm not a Roger, Brad, Lennie or even the Dr. What I'm is someone who like to learn new stuff,(even if its force fed to me not by choice). I don't work in the mechanics field so I don't consider myself and expert, just someone who likes to figure things out. But thanks anywaySmileWavy .

Lennie,
I have tried to be as sequential as posible. As I have said I messed up on the left bank and did not mess with the right bank all that much. I checked the alignment at least 4 times after the bike was running just to make sure I had not messed up again. The sprockets were correct. I rode about 250 miles on the bike and it did not feel right. I could not do a leak down test at my house so I went to a friends motorcycle shop to confirm the compression #s I had gotten and do a leak down test. While I was there I asked him to visually check the cam sprockets and see if they were aligned at TDC, they were. The leak down test indicated that the cylindars were tight at 120 psi We then adjusted the valves. The intakes were a little tight and the exhaust were a little loose. At that time I had to go back to work and he buttoned up the bike for me. I got a call about 20 min later and asked if the bike was hard starting, I said no. He put a battery charger on it and the next day we tried to start the bike. It turned over but would not start. Their was spark so we pulled the valve covers and on the right side one of the intake valves was stuck. Checked the cam sprocket the the right side had spun about 120 degrees,(cam sprockets torqued 65Nm). The left side was ok.
Pulled the heads checked everything, seats, guides, spring, clips, pistons everything within factory specs. Right intake valve bent and 7 valves 'very slightly tweeked'. Checked the sprockets. The right side pin was shorter than the left side pin. Looked at the bolt/washer side and compared the two sprockets. The right pin was smooth against where the washer hits. The left pin had an recess from the surface of the sprocket to the pin.
The good news is that the bike had not started so the damage was just valves and time.
Lennie,
do not think I'm tring to slam you for the problems I have had, I'm not. As I have said before I take responsibility for my actions. What I'm doing right now is giving you as a manufacturer honest input as to what has happened period. I would not have put your sprockets into my bike unless I felt confident that they would work. We can talk off line about some suggestions I have if you are so inclined. Best Jeff

Dr.
you know what irratates people about you. It you first three sentences. If you have nothing to say that is constructive and not putting a negitive spin on your comments please don't say anything. I'm just being straight up about what has happened and don't need b.s. from the peanut gallery.
That said, Thank you for your concern we did check the heads and pistons as stated above. Because the bike had not started we felt that going into the bottom end of the bike was not necessary. I gree about the keepers as well. I'll order a new set tomorrow. thanks. ps if you disagree about my dicision not going into the bottom end please let me know. As I have said I'm open to constructive help to form a decision.
CYA
Jeff

Jeff,
I too am impressed that you hung in their all the way. Most would've thrown there arms up and had it towed in. While I didn't have any issue's with my sprocket install nothing is foolproof.
.
Like the $76/hr. BMW tech the Dr. speaks about putting my front tire on in reverse. Not filling a newly replaced gearbox with fluid or installing the keeping pins on my front brakes (calipers) to keep the pads from spinning out. (so much for certified BMW techs with "shop tools".
.
Like I said sh#t happens and it just wasn't your day. (night)

Jeff,

I did not take it in a negative way at all. I am sorry if that is the way it seemed. I have sat back and watched the process you have been through and the determination you have applied to solve the problem. I am impressed you have the grit to hang in all the way.

I normally suggest people have the sprockets installed by a BMW technician as there is the off chance that inexperienced people can run into problems. We even dropped the cam chain almost all the way into the sump on one occasion and were very lucky to have managed to get it back out. I have helped quite a few times to get the install right with Peter Smith after we developed the vernier sprockets. It is better to double and triple check before rotating the engine. The whole process should not be more than about 1 to 2 hours including bodywork removal.

Cheers for the input and sorry to not chime in earlier.

Good Dr,

It is ok for you to say this and I quote you, "poorly fitting parts fitted late at night". From this I think you mean badly made parts. This is ok by me as I would not expect less from you.

The sprockets pass through 7 sets of hands by the time I get them. Each set of hands is highly respected in Sydney Australia for the quality of work they do. The fitting of the pin is into an individually reamed hole to get interference fit to prevent the pin dropping out. I wrestled with the idea of longer pins, but chose to measure the thickness of the total standard sprocket including the locating nib. The pin extends beyond what is necessary to locate the sprocket on the cam and after about 70 sets installed worldwide, this is the first set that have caused problems.

I feel for Jeff, and I too have had problems in the past fitting products that I have ended up having problems with. There is the odd chance this kind of thing happens to someone.

I also thank you for Jeff in pointing out that he should check other parts in the valve train.

Pat,
why don't you come down and I'll buy you a drink april 3. That way you can keep tabs on Raven.

Lennie,
does this mean that when I get in your neck of the island that I can get a pint or a meal in your resturant.
thank for the thoughts.
CYA
Jeff

Hey jeff;

Don't let Dr. jerkoff spoil your day, More power to you Bro!!!! :-)
I may still come down on April 3 , Working out some details with
my new home being built, A pain in the A$$
Had my Nugget shaved today, Made me sad with all the little kids
with cancer at the event.

EZ-Rider,
My wife was Executive Director of the American Cancer Society in our area for 8 years. Its a difinite mental shock to be around but think what its like to be the one who has cancer. The experience is cheap at half the price. A physician friend of mine says that we all will have cancer if we live long enough. a sobering thought.

As for the Dr.
I feel he has a great deal to bring to the table on this forum. He just has to chill abit and be nice to others. Sometimes its hard to do that. If the Dr. is in fact a Dr. then he will know that to be a professional is to be a life long student. The class room is all around us,(sorry to get on my soap box Dr. you have my permission to be mean to me for one sentance if you would like;)).
CYA
Jeff

Nothing negative intented. Just wanted to offer some suggestions that may prevent more pain for you and your bike down the line. I did not say to go into the bottom end...........but you might consider sliding the cylinders away from the cases so that the wrist pins and clips may be checked. Check the pin play by hand and detect any motion. There should be none. The rocker arms can be magnafluxed or rayed for cracks. You simply can not see a weakened area in a hardened part when there is no surface scratch or mar to see. (the tips of the rockers are hardened) The guides are the most often overlooked in this situation but should be replaced when a valve has been bent to the extent of those you showed. Don't put the engine back together and expect sparkey performance from a bike that may now be getting slight ammounts of oil into the combustion because of a distorted guide. Check the tiney pushrods as well. Look for slightly collapsed tips that may have crushed slightly into the carrier tube (the pushrod is a tube with two tips). Aftermarket parts, no matter how popular they are with this group require special care when installing. Perhaps the directions will be amended to stress the pin fit problem.

So my comments about the next owner of this bike were negative in your view? Well I ask you then............would you sell this bike to one of your circle of friends and expect them to not heed its history? Would the members here who know engines somewhat pay full value for a machine that has taken this sort of misfitting abuse? I am sure the bike will be alright in time but dark shadows have been cast upon it........fairly large ones.

Is it negative to point things out? Is it negative to suggest preventive maintaince when a valve train amd piston train have been derailed. I only wish to offer solid advice and harbor no negative feelings at all. Wierd group when my comments are posted, with a real "pile on" mentality. Good luck with the bike.

Dr.,
thanks I'll check into the pushrods and mag the rocker arms etc.

The comments about the next owner,(if their ever is one),is not a bad question. My concern is about the delivery of the statement. Tact does help in a written forum. If you and I were talking your comment would be IMO, aceptable, even encouraged,but too many things can be invaribly misconstrude in written form. That said, IMO communication must be altered to a more tactful form.
My friends who know me know that i mess around with what ever I have. I would have no problem selling a bike that has had a problem that has been fixed to my satisfaction. Of course I'm a big fan of full disclosure. If they feel that it is compromised, so be it, thats ok. IMO its just a machine ,(be it a great one), and things fatigue and things fail. I check and replace what needs to be replaced. Its as simple as that. Machines don't have souls and feelings,(i hope :)), True things can happen, some sooner, some later, it just happens. Which would be worse I wonder, doing what I did and then sell the bike to a friend or buying a street bike that has a thousand miles on rough pot-holed dirt roads, cleaned then sold...
Sorry Dr. I was rambling I will try not to let it happen again ;) thanks for the tip on maging the rockers, good call.
yours
Jeff

What a waste of a nice machine
Dr.
What a positive comment to make to a fellow S owner :) Oh yea, nothing negatively intended.
.
.
Jeff,
Can't make it. Between bikes right now. Working on some tax deductions for the rest of the summer. Or new dental patients. Either way, the same.

Jeff,

I will only agree to a meal and a pint if you are not too tired to enjoy it. :D

The Dr has good intentions about the other parts to check and I think it is admirable of him to offer the advice. I must admit he is getting a little better in his approach to problems that pop up on the board.

The best parts and the intended use all comes down to the fitting at the end of the day. Jeff has stated that he was too tired to be fitting the sprockets at the end of the day. I recommend that anyone in the future be aware of the critical nature of cam timing and that this proves to be a rather expensive result.

I found it to be easier with an extra set of hands and eyes to be checking as you go and to do one side at a time.

Hope all works out for you Jeff and you are welcome here if you want to go to the trouble of getting down under. Heck, for that matter any board member is welcome to visit if they wish. :D SmileWavy

You've always been helpful Lennie. Remember on my sprocket install. How I e-mailed you with why my left side wasn't firing upon start up. (Since the whole throttle body needed to be moved outta the way to get to the chain tensioner bolt I reinstall it and didn't see that the throttle cable got caught up in something and didn't allow any gas into the cylinder.)
.
You were very responsive and didn't tease me (too bad) over the whole thing. I guess if I had "shop tools" it wouldn't of happened. Oh well, we all learn.
.
And I wasn't tired and I still Fu#@ it off Jeff :)

Lennie,
thanks I'll be right over with my 10 kids(oh noooooo). things are coming together for the better, it just got a little pricey.
cya

Pat,
sorry we couldn't hook up. let me know in advance on you next speed run up north with the red fleet. I'll see if any of the SoCal boys want to ride up with me.
CYA

Dr.
Check the valve train again and everything looks ok maged the rocker arms looked ok...but when ahead and replaced the intake side of right rocker assembly,(lifter,pushrod,rocker arm,nuts(?):),and screw/cap). I also got a new set of keepers for all the new valves. My visa is not what it used to be..$$$$$$$. But thats what happens when a person(me)has a streak of perfectionism in him,(its called anal but some people might take offence given our 1950s present standards). Thanks for the tip.
CYA
Jeff