Cam Sprocket Instal problem need Help

Jeff Williams · 02-15-2004, 07:29 PM

Hi all,
Well to make a long story short, I read Pat Donnells 'Cam Sprocket install 103 (see thread), and went very smooth. But when I tried to rotate the rear tire,( with plugs out, in 5th gear), I got about an 1/8 of a revolution of the chain when it stopped and would not go forward at all. I tried to reverse the tire rotation and the points align up but it will not go foward. I then looked for a misaligned cam chain tensioner but they looked ok and moved properly when the chain was pushed up and down. I sometimes heard a noise from the right side but I thought it might be valves closing, but then againg the right side valve cover was hard to remove. I don't think I dropped anything in the engine but I'm confused.

Please help
Jeff

Jeff Williams · 02-15-2004, 07:35 PM

I just went out to the garage and the wheel will rotate backwards fully and with no problem, but will not rotate foward more than a 1/4 revolution.
Sound like something is out of align or stuck or... something dropped,(not very likely but..)
Jeff

davidb2 · 02-15-2004, 07:50 PM

try rotating the engine with the front pulley. 16mm wrench. clockwise tranny in neutral

Jeff Williams · 02-15-2004, 08:47 PM

Davidb2,
Pulled off the front cover and rotated the engine from the front pulley.
the clicking comes from the right lower chain guide it still locks up. When it does the chain goes tight.
jeff

Dr. Curve · 02-16-2004, 04:30 AM

Jeff, did you let the chain get really loose? Enough so that you may have jumped a srocket tooth on the lay shaft down in the block. With lights and mirrors if necessary, pull the valve covers and try looking straignt down the chain. Look for a bend outward kink that may signal that the chain was loose and as reinstalling proceeded it (the chain) misaligned on a tooth, momentarily, enoung to destort it.

Then again, did you allow anything down the case? The plugs are out of course, no compression, cams have not been switched, nothing like that...........no valve contacting piston......ect.

Jeff Williams · 02-16-2004, 07:38 AM

Dr.C,
I don't think I got the chain loose enough to jump the bottom sprocket nor did I see any bent link when I spun the engine in the reverse direction, but I will check the alignment as you suggest.
As for dropping anything down the hole all the parts that are supposed to be their are in place.
Question IF I have to go into the engine to check where the chain meets the crankshaft, can I access it by removing the pan. Do I have to pull the engine.
Thanks
Jeff

roger albert · 02-16-2004, 08:13 AM

pan? You'll have no luck that route.

Do the black plastic guides move freely? Be especially careful with them. They can get brittle. I've had no luck envisioning what could be happening yet. Maybe Lennie or someone who's been into oilheads valvetrains more than us will jump in...

good luck
roger

pdonnell · 02-16-2004, 08:19 AM

Have you tried davidb2 suggestion? Putting the bike in neutral and using the front pulley?
.
(just to rule out any gearbox issues?) Put the cam chain tensioners back in (after exploring deep in the bowels of the motor for that missing socket) and try to move the wheel forward.

Jeff Williams · 02-16-2004, 12:00 PM

Roger,
the guides seem to work properly and the chain is on the crankshaft . My friend who is a porsche,(simular engine), suggested that the valves may be hitting which means the timing may be off. I checked and the nail brush marks moved 2 links on both sides. I reset them and tried to check if I was in the groove on the cam. I think they are now but now it hits both foward and reverse rotations. I thought I was a fair wrench, but now I'm really second quessing myself. Could I have them 180 degrees off?

Pat,
All the rotations have been with the tensioners in. I must have missed the guide hole because with the tensioners in and the sprockets snug the chain moved 2 links after 30 min of messing around checking things last night. Thats what i get for working on something when I tired. As for that socket they are all accounted for. Unless someone snuck in my garage when my door was open I just know. I'm going to try to start over again with the 9 degree sprockets and if it doesn't work and will try to put the stock ones back in to see if I can go back to the beginning.

This sucks

Jeff

davidb2 · 02-16-2004, 01:10 PM

The notch in the camshaft end are up on one end and down on the other end. I rotated the engine to tdc on the left side, the notch was up. then I rotated it to tdc on the right side and the notch was down.( I replaced the cams a couple of days ago.)always turning clockwise and I bet you have a cam 180 degrees off.

Malc · 02-16-2004, 01:39 PM

Jeff,

With regards to your "removing the pan" remark. If you mean the sump, there isn't one. The crankcases are split vertically.

I had a similar clicking on the cam chain when I put my engine back together. Turned out to be the cam chain tensioner was stuck. You can see the tensioner if you look down the cam chain, on the right side if the engine it's on the bottom. You can take it out and check it but make sure you don't lose the spring inside it.

Malc

roger albert · 02-16-2004, 01:46 PM

I'd second davidb2's theory of a rotated cam.
Working when tired is often costly.
I did so just last night and new will be pulling an entire exhaust system since I left out one header seal. !@#$#$! grrrrrr.

Also, your idea of getting back to baseline is often a good approach too.
thanks
roger

Jeff Williams · 02-16-2004, 05:06 PM

Davidb2,
I think your right I'm going to try it now. if this doesnt work I'm gong to pull the timing chain cover and start over to establish TDC
I wonder if both cylinders are off or just one.
thanks

Malc, their is no doubt about it right side exhaust valves hit at what looks like TDC. thanks for letting me know how little I know about going into the 'inerds' of this beast.

Roger,
This sucks big time. I hate doing 'stupid things' when I know I shouldn't. As I said to Davidb2 it could be one or both sides if I don't figure it out tonight I'm pulling off the front cover and doing this 'right',(what ever that means at this point).
Thanks

time to take some advil and start .
CYA
Jeff

UberXY · 02-16-2004, 05:22 PM

Jeff: good luck, it will be ok in the end.

I installed a Rita ignition on an old Ducati 860 GT 180 degrees wrong once and when I went to kick it over, it fired backwards and nearly drove me into the ceiling. I limped for a week. I only made that mistake once.

Jeff Williams · 02-16-2004, 07:37 PM

Hi all,
Update
Intakes on left side hits piston
Exhaust on right side hits piston
cannot get to TDC.

I guess its the long way
Jeff

BMW Atlanta · 02-17-2004, 06:25 AM

Is it possible you have one of the cam sprockets inverted/reversed? Or possibly even both,.........so that you are now going 9 degrees backwards instead of advancing? I have not had Lennies sprockets in my hand to see if it is possible to put them on backwards,......but it sure sounds like some minor detail has been overlooked. As long as you dont attempt to start the thing or force the motor to spin you will be ok,.........just frustrated as hell. Good luck with it, Im sure youll figure it out

Jeff Williams · 02-17-2004, 06:28 AM

Bobby,
no the pin is only on one side. but your right I missed something working at night when I should have been asleep. Just being stupid and now its back to square one.
CYA
jeff

brad black · 02-18-2004, 02:45 AM

with the pistons at tdc, one cam slot is at 12 o'clock, the other at 6 o'clock. i always do one at a time, with the arrows on the sprockets lined up inside the tunnel to keep a reference.

make sure the pins are in the slots too - they should just push into place without much force.

Jeff Williams · 02-18-2004, 07:07 AM

brad,
is the right side #1 and the pin at 6 o'clock when at TDC.
is the left side #2 and the pin at 12 o'clock when at TDC.
Thanks
Jeff

davidb2 · 02-18-2004, 01:25 PM

I think that 180 off. I get home from work at 6 pm Kalif time I will pull the cam cover in my spare and check for you.