Input shaft splines

cworley5150 · 05-10-2006, 07:40 AM

I've read that this is the most common failure in the drivetrain of BMW's. I'm looking at buying a used R1100S Replika and I am a little comcerned. Can this not be avoided with some type of routine maintenance? Are the bikes with failures not being maintained properly or is it pretty much a crap shoot? Do the splines need to be greased at a particular mileage interval?

Never owned a BMW before. The bikes have always fascinated me, particularly the boxer powered bikes. Any input is appreciated.

Chris

wswartzwel · 07:51 AM

Many many of these bike have experienced no problems. I greased mine at around 20K they were dry and rusty but showed no signs of wear. A friend has a 99 with over 75K on it that has never been apart.

BTW don't let this stop you from buying an R1100S... They are fantastic bikes, You will really enjoy owning and riding it.

markjenn · 05-10-2006, 08:00 AM

Controversial topic. I'd suggest you search here and at advrider.com to get all the opinions. Here's mine:

First, I'd never characterize spline failure as "the most common failure in the drivetrain". In fact, it's a fairly uncommon failure - the most common is probably seal leakage in the rearmost pumpkin, either on the wheel side or on the u-joint side. Also the paralever bearings seem to give out on many bikes. People lump a lot of things under the term "final drive failure", from minor seal leakage and excessive bearing play, to the outright stopped-along-the-side-of-the-road spline failure.

But the splines do occasionally fail. The best overview of "final drive failure" issues was on a fairly recent issue of BMW Owner's Club newsletter and if I think of it, I'll try and get a more specific reference.

I personally have seen too many bikes going 100K+ without any spline issues and too many bikes with failures at very low miles, to attribute spline problems PRIMARILY to lack of maintenance. And BMW does not recommend any routine spline lube maintenance, although a few dealers have doctored BMW's maintenance sheets to make it appear so.

I personally think it's an alignment and QA/QC metallurgy problem with a healthy does of owner abuse thrown in which can push marginal units "over the edge". You certainly want to grease the splines if you're in there for another reason, but I'd would never recommend that you tear a bike which is working fine down just to grease these splines, which is a MAJOR operation. The most common place to get sick is in the hospital.

Many folks look at these splines and conclude their hopefully undersized. I don't think that's true - you see much bigger horsepower being transferred across smaller splines in many different vehicles. People who know these things better than me have said the BMW design does have an issue that the design is subject to misalignment issues.

If this "crap shoot" is unacceptable to you, I'd get something else. There is something very compeling about a chain-drive bike in which you replace all the wear components every 20K miles. But most of us get good service from these quirky and sometimes unreliable beasts.

- Mark

cworley5150 · 05-10-2006, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the input.

Mark,

My honest opinion of BMW's is that they are as reliable as any bike and more so than most. It's amazing the stuff you read on the internet. I'm sure for every guy that reports a "final drive failure" there are 1000 guys that have never had a single issue. Just like CNN. Only the bad news gets the attention.

Thanks you for your honest opinion. I'm a fan of shaft drive bikes. Don't like the mess and maintenance of chain drive. I'm willing to take a chance on the Replika I'm loooking at. The odds are by far in my favor. The bike has "soul". It speaks to me so the slight chance of a final drive problem is worth it.

Rapid Dog · 05-10-2006, 10:06 AM

Depends, (how vague), but there seems to have been a few bad parts here and there, usually takebn care of under warranty anyway, however, maintained and treated with at least a marginal degree of respect, the drivelines are pretty worthy.
in otherwords, if the guy that's got the Replika appears to be a type "A" hooliganist, well, I'd think about it.
A low mileage bike form a dealer, test ridden and given a good once-over, is probably a safe bet.
My2Sense

jduke · 05-10-2006, 10:59 AM

I second Markjenn's comments, I think it's more of an alignment problem than anything else. I had a 94 RS with over 100,000 miles on it and never greased the splines.

Moybin · 05-10-2006, 11:31 AM

IMHO (only) it is a QC/QA problem stemming from production lots, whether your machine was assembled early or late in the life cycle of the design, and who knows what else.

I read it like this: early on (like the first 500 or 1000 machines) QC was all over the production line and little things like adequately greasing the splines at assembly were looked at hard. Later on in production QC gets lax because everything is going together correctly, and so Production starts to skip little steps, like greasing.

Then there is the old "old supplier-new supplier" problem. We don't know who made these shafts for Getrag (the tranny maker). If there were changes in design (we know ther was), changes in metallurgy, changes in heat treatment or flat out a different supplier started making them. All of these things can affect the final outcome.

Personally I think the design is substandard, period. If you searched the forum enough you will find I did a new shaft with chromium nitride surface treatment and so far no problems. Why BMW doesn't do this is probably a matter of bottom-line cost and anal accountants.

cworley5150 · 05-10-2006, 12:42 PM

This thread on the bmw sport touring forum is what I ran across that started my concerns. There does indeed seem to be a significant number of input shaft problems.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=443693

No matter. I really want the Replika. I'll take my chances.

Thanks again for the discussion and input.

ErricZ · 05-10-2006, 12:43 PM

Something I noticed is that this problem doesn't seem to appear on pre-1150 generation R1100S bikes. As soon as the 1150GS and RTs started chomping their splines, the R1100Ses began their downward spiral.

Any validation to this point? Has anyone with a pre-1150 R1100S had a spline failure?

GS ADDICT · 05-10-2006, 08:47 PM

My 2000 R1150 GS, @ 75,000km(46,500m) started weeping from the trans input shaft seal. I pulled it apart (BIG job) and to my horror I found my clutch plate splines very badly worn and the input shaft worn at an angle. I had the dealer replace the input shaft as I did not have the jigs req'd for the job. His comment was that it was probably due to a lack of greasing with the proper Starburgs Moly Grease. He also said he'd seen another bike do it and the symtom of that was a rattle in the clutch when the lever was pulled in. His advice was to put it back together with a new clutch plate and correctly grease the splines as per manual.
The bike now has 122,000km (75,000m) and seems ok so far but I am not totally confident it will last.
I think the alignment if the transmission to engine face is not correct as well as the input shaft could go deeper into the clutch splines as the pictures attached show. Your comments would be welcomed.

markjenn · 05-10-2006, 08:52 PM

I've seen much MUCH worse still working fine at 100K+.

- Mark

cworley5150 · 05-11-2006, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ErricZ
Something I noticed is that this problem doesn't seem to appear on pre-1150 generation R1100S bikes. As soon as the 1150GS and RTs started chomping their splines, the R1100Ses began their downward spiral.

Any validation to this point? Has anyone with a pre-1150 R1100S had a spline failure?

I looked at that forum again and I noticed that their is not much mention of failures on any R1100S's. Could it be that it uses the tranny from the KRS and has the swingarm mounted to the frame instead of hanging from the motor itself (I think I have that right)?

From what I understand the R1100S is a little different chassis from the other boxers. Is that wrong?

Thanks again for the responses.

Moybin · 05-11-2006, 09:15 AM

Chassis IS different, but we S owners have had our share of failures. I still think the first 1000 or so had better QC/QA, then later in the production run things got sloppy.

JonyRR · 05-11-2006, 09:25 AM

it's somewhat common practice amongst the car set to index both the bellhouosing/xmission and engine block mating surface so they're true to each other (this is usually off by a few thou) to preclude a cocked driveline (between engine crank and xmission input shaft) this can be off in any direction. just fyi

this is one time I'm glad I have a low-number 99 (oct of '98) production

Moybin · 05-11-2006, 12:41 PM

JonyRR et al

Mine was September 98 billed as a '99. #383 of the US production imports. Look at the last 5 digits of you VIN. The very last 3 indicate the place in the production queue.

ErricZ · 05-11-2006, 01:10 PM

Mine ends with an 003 and according to BMW, was built in 10/2001 ...

That aside, I am guessing that you are saying you had spline failure ... if so, there goes my theory ... and Jony's ... bugger.