OTL Clutch Splines, Part 2 Article

FWC · 07-10-2007, 11:09 AM

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed on this forum, but I was wondering if anyone has read the Clutch Splines, Part 2 Article in the June issue of On The Level? It was written by Anton Largiader. His speculation is interesting. He makes no mention about spline lubing, or the ongoing need for it. Rather, in his opinion, the problem of spline wear on Oilhead six speed equipped bikes is mainly due to a questionable design coupled with misaligned parts. Any thoughts on this? I don't have access to the article electronically or I'd post a link.

Flatbutt1 · 07-10-2007, 02:11 PM

there is about two days worth of reading on the topic here, do a search and you'll see page after page after page after.......

markjenn · 07-10-2007, 08:13 PM

I haven't read it, but his speculation is consistent with mine. I'd enjoy reading it and can provide server space if anyone wants to scan it.

- Mark

AntonLargiader · 07-11-2007, 02:32 AM

Quote:

I'd enjoy reading it and can provide server space if anyone wants to scan it.

That's nice of you. Make sure you ask the author or publisher if you can freely republish their copyrighted material. Or maybe, if the OTL has articles you like, you could subscribe?

throttlemeister · throttlemeister's Garage

Ut oh, morality police alert.

Bob Hancock · 07-11-2007, 03:44 AM

I was gonna offer to mail you my copy of OTL so you can scan it and put it on the web, Mark, but I better not . It's an OK article full of personal observation and some speculation, but not worth going to Publishers Prison.

roger albert · 07-11-2007, 03:59 AM

C'mon guys. You can't really expect an author to be thrilled when his material is heisted. Yes, I know some would be glad to want to be read and for the extra exposure, but some want it to go to the paying customers only. Both schools of thought exist. We could maybe try to respect the authors wishes, given that he does chime in with some pretty useful info here from time to time. I've been on both sides of this and it's a fine line. In any event, the law is on the author/publishers side.

And this is hardly aggressive. Try posting some RRW&T stuff, even if it's just their half-assed, regurgitated version of some company's press release. THEN you'll see what policing is like.

markjenn · 07-11-2007, 08:36 AM

No problem on the copyright discussion, either way. I generally am fairly respectful, but I also think a casual posting of one specific article to aid in a discussion for a limited period of time is a bending of the rules that is worth looking past now and then. In this situation, I don't think any of us are going to subscribe to BMWRA just to get this article, and if we did subscribe, we probably wouldn't get it anyway.

I know, it's a slipperly slope.

- Mark

FWC · 07-11-2007, 09:10 AM

I didn't mean to open a little can of worms. My place of employment subscribes to OTL. I understand about copyright restrictions, but agree with markjenn. In fact, a link from here to Anton's spline tech article could actually end up selling a few BMWRA memberships if anyone on this site reads it and feels like an RA membership might be worthwhile.

geechie · 10:00 AM

After meeting and working a bit with Anton in Daytona last October, I promptly sent in my membership money to the RA. Money well spent, too. Anton's a good guy and an intelligent tech. He's a good enough friend, that I think I can razz him just a bit.

So here's the other side of the story. In the (I think it was) the Apr/May issue of OTL, there was this story on BMW racing at the March MOTO-ST event in Daytona. There were pictures with the article too. But no credit to the photographers. Haw could this Be?

One of the pictures looked kinda like this:

Or maybe it was more like this:

I know who took those two.

George

Oh, I read and appreciated the clutch-spline article too.

G

JonyRR · 07-11-2007, 11:24 AM

as swartzy pointed out above, it's silly to expect ANY sliding joint that has both lateral and surface loading to NOT show signs of wear without SOME lubrication.
Now, faulty heattreat, bad materials engineering and misalignment due to manufacturing tolerance or sloppy assembly can excabrate this......one reason moybin and I tossed the idea of hardcoating a new input shaft around. he did his, I copped out as my shaft was perfect upon last teardown.
his coating is chrome-nitride; while the jury's out long-term he reports no issues.
I wonder is induction-hardening a new shaft wouldn't be of benefit before hardcoating.
and then, of course, grease the splines.

Now, don't get me started on paralever pivot bearings! (mine are now rubber chicken racing garage oilite bronze bushings, BTW)

wswartzwel · 07-11-2007, 12:40 PM

Sorry Jony, when I realized the thread was more about
"The Article"
than the splines I deleted my post since it was off topic....

JonyRR · 07-11-2007, 01:59 PM

hmmmph!
OT?
wassthatamean?
for FREE?
sheesh....

wswartzwel · 07-11-2007, 03:20 PM

AntonLargiader · 07-12-2007, 03:43 AM

Thanks for the opinions, guys.

OTL does publish online a few teaser articles just to see what you might be getting if you subscribe. One of the recent ones was on CAN-bus stuff. Another good one was the R1200GS review.

Most are not published online; for instance, the two-part description of final drive issues last summer. The idea is to provide an incentive for joining/subscribing. With both the RA and the MOA, most people are there for the magazine. Not that my stuff specifically is so great, but hopefully there's something great some of the time. Once an article is scanned/posted somewhere, it's gone as far as being a reason to join. Accordingly, the stuff that does go online usually shows up six months or a year after being in print.

George, point noted on the photos. That particular one was my fault (since I wrote that article) but it has come up elsewhere. I've started the ball rolling on a better photo policy. Great photos (well, yeah, that's why I used them!) and I totally covet your camera.

FWC · 07-12-2007, 06:18 AM

Okay, the point of my original post was to discuss the spline issue as highlighted by Anton's research. I didn't intend to turn this into a BMW RA membership drive. One of the points Anton makes is that the spline failures are more common with the six-speed gearboxes when used on the Oilheads. Not so much with five-speed versions. The six-speed was originally fitted to the K1200RS, and apparently, spline failures are not common on those bikes. However, when the six-speed was adapted to the boxers, starting with the 1999 R1100S and the later R1150 models, Anton noticed that the spline shaft in those applications does not fit completely inside the clutch hub as it does with the older five-speed tranny. That design short-coming, coupled with any misalignment of the components, contributes to the destruction of the splines. So in my opinion, the arguments about metal-hardening, types of spline lube, and frequency of lubing, are all for nought if the above-mentioned hypothesis is correct. It would seem that proper component alignment and a slightly longer input shaft (along with the factory-recommended amount of lube, of course), would probably go a long way to correcting this "high profile failure" to quote Anton Largiader, OTL, June 2007.

AntonLargiader · 07-12-2007, 05:23 PM

Right, my conclusion is that the offset spline engagement of the R1150-type design is not the root cause, but it allows smaller imbalances or misalignments to manifest themselves catastrophically, whereas on an 1100 spline they would just cause slight wear.

Bob Hancock · 07-12-2007, 06:02 PM

Anton, what's your take on the splines that go from the rear drive into the driveshaft. Should that be lubed?

AntonLargiader · 07-13-2007, 03:18 AM

Any spline should be lubed AFAIK, but that one (and the driveshaft internal splines and the front DS spline) is a non-issue on Paralever bikes as far as wear goes.

roger albert · 07-13-2007, 07:12 AM

All splines should be lubed in pretty much any app where the lube won't attract extra dust or dirt.