Odd RapidBike map(s)

[peter f]

Well friends,

I'm in the middle of the nowhere here in Greece. There's only one fella with RB3 "experience" (+ Dynostar 150). Friend of mine and good chap ...but...has the GSXR1000/Buza mentality (banzai power in the red) which is not exactly my cup of tea (power in the middle, ride the torque etc etc - I'm talking push rod boxer related stuff obviously, not R1/Blades et all).

Obviously dyno tuning is only a "start point" towards Nirvana (if such thing has any meaning and/or exists). All that matters is the feeling on the road etc etc. But on the other hand there's that tempting RB "on the road" Wi-Fi tune capability (all you need is : 1 angry wife + 1 WiFi gizmo + 1 fast car + 1 laptop + 1 empty road + 1 good life insurance + ....).

Anyway, my problem is that some of my maps...erm...they look a bit odd at least to me (using RB Lite "inspection" software at home).

See this Injection "anomaly". Is this WAD?

[roger albert]

Can't say much about that, without having looked at many similar maps for similar configs on the same bike (which I haven't)

In general, the downward spike is counterintuitive, but that doesn't mean wrong. Many motor configs will have some narrow range where they don't breath well. A good tuner will reduce the fuel in that area for normal stoichiometry. It may look to an untrained eye like the the lean mixture is a cause of the low power (or some dip in a torque curve etc) when in fact it is a result of the mechanical-tuning/breathing of intake, exhaust, heads, cam etc. I.e the dip in the map is response, not stimulus.

That's a general tuning nugget there. Again, can't say on your bike for sure.

[EZ-RIDER]

Maybe Robert could answer your Questions

[boxercup]

Greetings Peter,

Dude, you emailed me for a map.

I sent you this VERY one. I made it some time ago. (You altered the DETAILS section!)

Tell me what is odd or counter intuitive with either map?

I have sent this map to many tuners worldwide. We use it as a close Dyno starter map for some of the the R1200Ss. It works!

It clearly reveals the characteristics of your engine at related speed/RPM/TP.

Install a Pipercross or BMC filter in addition to what you modded, have your tuner tweak it and enjoy!

And YES! The DynoJet 150 with EGA will work!

Tune it! Ride It!

Do you need the Rapid Bike Pro Software?

Best!

[Peter Parts]

For the last 35 yrs we've been advancing the spark on the boxers by 3 degrees (like by finessing the Hall Effect plate on the R1100S). That's what the RBIII does except it must be retarding the spark by 357 degrees. Aha!

Alrighty... maybe the RBIII will start easier and won't cook the pistons at high revs.

[EZ-RIDER]

Open mouth insert foot, Again Partparts your off base

[peter f]

Originally Posted by boxercup

Greetings Peter,

Dude, you emailed me for a map.

I sent you this VERY one. I made it some time ago. (You altered the DETAILS section!)

Tell me what is odd or counter intuitive with either map?

I have sent this map to many tuners worldwide. We use it as a close Dyno starter map for some of the the R1200Ss. It works!

It clearly reveals the characteristics of your engine at related speed/RPM/TP.

Install a Pipercross or BMC filter in addition to what you modded, have your tuner tweak it and enjoy!

And YES! The DynoJet 150 with EGA will work!

Tune it! Ride It!

Do you need the Rapid Bike Pro Software?

Best!

Hmm...

1. Erm...Robert, I have no RB map creation capabilities (I'm only a silly Architect). Local "guru" (has RB pro - obviously) had provided me this (under my demand) and another one (+10% more rich mixture - or he claims so). Obviously things are "floating" these days via Internet.

2. "guru" said that the db-killers (HPE end can) and the cat are responsible for more than 6-7 rwbhp loss (but who cares? he taks about ponies in the red zone).

3. In general dare I say that I can't see any BIG difference between BMS-K VS RB3. Truth is...the bike has an "oily" operation but...truth is also that I can't find a 900Euro difference (RB3 + map selector + switch + "tuning" + VAT)

4. I've asked some "starting point" maps from you because I thought that these could serve better towards...erm...you know....more from this and that etc etc (I mean : middle range ponies).

5. I'll try to scan my graphs and I'll post them here.

[peter f]

PS: In fact....my main objection with local "guru" is this banzai mentality of 100% throttle tuning. Into the Dynostar....twist the grip to he max > voila the "ultimate" graph > do some corrections/mods > here's the Holly Grail > have a nice day.

Obviously (racing apart) this has very little relevance with what happens into real-roads (in real-life) not to mention the nature of that boxer thing (ride the torque instead of the power etc etc etc).

IMHO all that matters is tuning in PARTIAL throttle openings (say 30%, 40%, 60% etc etc).

Predictably...erm..."guru" said that I'm talking nonsense stuff...

[BMW Atlanta]

Are you saying there is a stock catalyst in place on an R12S you have installed an RBIII on this bike and you want to dyno tune it? Dyno's with gas analysis capability only work when a catylst is NOT installed on the bike as the Cat will not allow a true reading of the exhaust gas. This in turn will not allow the optimization of the RBIII on your bike and therefore you have wasted alot of money as it will be a crap shoot as to any gains you might experience. Also using a map from another nation would also only be a starting grounds for building your own map. There are different quality fuels all over the world let alone different quality fuels from State to State in the USA and this leads to the need for a unique RB map for every individual bike it's installed on if you really want it perfect across the board.

The only way an RBIII is going to make any substantial benefit on any BMW is if the stock catalysts is removed or the tuner installs a gas analyzer before the catalyst. Either way the extra fuel you'll be pumping in with the RBIII down the road is going to lead to premature catalyst failure.

[peter f]

Hmmm

To clarify : I have a full HPE pipe (headers and slip on) with cat and L sensors. Reason? Well...environment apart...some trips in Europe (in particular...a Swiss traffic cop searching for not politically correct things etc etc etc).

Other than that, indeed appears that the rich mixture provided by RB3 could be a bad thing for my poor old HPE cat.

But wait a moment : I'm a "bit" confused to say the least. I mean: DOES the BMS-K takes readings from my L sensors or not? And DOES BMS-K has any role (as "input") to the RB brain work? (also, what about the stock knock sensors? they DO still talk to BMS-K or not?).

[peter f]

OK

If we forget that poor old cat of mine (under rich mixtures) the generic question is :

There's a myriad of sensors (so to speak) transmitting data to BMS-K. RB3 wiring (at least to my experience) is related with the OUTPUT part of the equation (injectors, potentiometer et all). Thus...it's reasonable to assume that BMS-K DOES some work...and that brings us to my HPE L sensors...

[BMW Atlanta]

With the RBIII installed correctly you should have O2 sensor eliminators installed and your original O2 sensors removed completely(if they are not hooked up they will foul in a very short period if left in the exhaust, so removal is necessary), this is the only way for your RBIII to work properly. With the RB O2 eliminators installed, your BMS-K is getting a fake static reading in place of the O2 sensors and therefore providing a static fueling map for the RBIII to manipulate as programmed to do so by custom mapping on a dyno.

[boxercup]

Greetings Bobby,

Happy New Year!

Do a search on PBBB Member ROLOO for his report. He achieved success with a cat.

Many Rapid Bike 3 Kits sold in the EU is installed on a vehicle with a cat. If you don't and the bike came with one OEM it will be impounded in most EU countries. We also do them here in our country and in Canada. Oh especially California.


DEAD STOCK EXAMPLE ABOVE

The European Tuners tune them real well with the cat/stock cans and no subsequent damage. Just a much better running bike all around.

Ever heard of a dead cat? How can you kill a cat? You just clean it and put it on the bike. Self-cleaning>>Done!

Most Euro exhaust manufacturers offer performance cats for their systems.


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Peter,

Why don't we get your bike running optimally. Was it ever Dyno Tuned?

Where are you located in Greece?

Please contact my colleague in Greece>> yiannis@turbodiesel.gr

I am sure he can provide you with a good tuner.

You may as well understand at this point running rich is not helping the environment either.

Get it tweaked

[boxercup]

Originally Posted by peter f

Hmm...

1. Erm...Robert, I have no RB map creation capabilities (I'm only a silly Architect). Local "guru" (has RB pro - obviously) had provided me this (under my demand) and another one (+10% more rich mixture - or he claims so). Obviously things are "floating" these days via Internet.

This is the same starting map that I sent him. That he got through the Rapid Bike distributor in Greece.

2. "guru" said that the db-killers (HPE end can) and the cat are responsible for more than 6-7 rwbhp loss (but who cares? he taks about ponies in the red zone).

Is this empirical? Or numbers from the Dyno? Your bike should make horsepower!

3. In general dare I say that I can't see any BIG difference between BMS-K VS RB3. Truth is...the bike has an "oily" operation but...truth is also that I can't find a 900Euro difference (RB3 + map selector + switch + "tuning" + VAT)

Cant see how you can when you do not have an optimal tune.

4. I've asked some "starting point" maps from you because I thought that these could serve better towards...erm...you know....more from this and that etc etc (I mean : middle range ponies).

Rapid Bike + Tuner = Success! You have a good starting map. I will send yo ua few more. Especially ones that were made with a CAT. Do you have the HP High Performance CAT?

5. I'll try to scan my graphs and I'll post them here.

Great!

Do you have the Rapid Bike Pro Software? When was the last time your box was reprogrammed? Or, when was it purchased and programmed?

Let's get you going!

[boxercup]

Originally Posted by Peter Parts

For the last 35 yrs we've been advancing the spark on the boxers by 3 degrees (like by finessing the Hall Effect plate on the R1100S). That's what the RBIII does except it must be retarding the spark by 357 degrees. Aha!

Alrighty... maybe the RBIII will start easier and won't cook the pistons at high
revs.

Hmmm... I wonder what would have happened to Mr. Stanton's bike with the 3 Degrees Across the board increase in advance.

Here is what 3 Degrees looks like across the board>> very 70ish tuning



This is very 2009


It makes power

[jduke]

Robert, advancing the timing using the Hall Sensor has been around for awhile, but I've never seen it laid out as a picture. It looks like it doesn't really add power. I've done it to older airheads when I was trying to max the power, and while I never tested it on a dyno, I remember it actually increasing the road power of a bike. For example, a BMW tech had a supposedly hot R100 and we would do 5th gear 50 mph twist it and go runs down the road. He used to beat me every time, but once I advanced the timing using the Hall Sensor I would start pulling away from him.
Not trying to argue with you just wondering what was going on.
Thanks!
Jerry

[boxercup]

Greetings,

Just a visualization of the advance values all being the same at all RPMs and Throttle Positions vs. A tuned advance map. Look at the variations. The values are there for power. 3 Degrees where .5 is max.... not good! Worse when the RPMs get higher... 3 Degrees at 11,500 where 1.5 is max. Losing power there if you had 3 degrees!

3 Degrees across the board is Not good for power or longevity!

Although it has been done, it does not mean it WORKS FOR BEST POWER.

Sure at 100% throttle you saw a difference but was it REALLY a difference.

I have tuned many airheads and also own many. I am a tuner and do not subscribe to it.

Safety - Power - Longevity are always our goal!

[BMW Atlanta]

Originally Posted by boxercup

Greetings Bobby,

Happy New Year!

Do a search on PBBB Member ROLOO for his report. He achieved success with a cat.

Almost every Rapid Bike 3 sold in the EU has a cat. If you don't and the bike came with one it will be impounded in most EU countries. We also do them here in our country and in Canada. Oh especially California.

Thus installing an O2 sensor pre-catalyst is the only way to get an effective reading, do you agree? Using a standard gas analyzer in the tail pipe is not going to be effective with a cat installed as this is how most any dyno tune shop in the USA is set up.

[Peter Parts]

Many thanks to peter f for shedding some light on the RB3. At last.

Very good to see BMW Atlanta here - a guy with serious tech depth and no one you'd ever want to argue with.

Right. Back to the spark advance (not a lot new about fueling), in my earlier post, I pointed out that the RB3 avoids cooking the pistons at upper reaches of rpm, as compared to crude methods of shifting the spark. I mentioned it doesn't impair starting and idling, again, unlike crudely shifting the Hall Effect plate.

But all that has to be compared to the complex 2D (or multi-D) surface of the underlying ECU spark timing on which the RB3 builds. It would sure be nice to see what that looks like for the Motronic 2.4. The Cagiva spark "surface" Brad Black published is very sophisticated and nothing like a fly-ball advance mechanism, with all the little springs and shapely weights in the world. The Cagiva cuts back at higher rpms - yeah, try that using centrifugal force.

As someone who's eyeballed advance gizmos (and loudspeakers) with my old General Radio Strobo-tac, it is another advantage to remove the time hysteresis (both up and down) by going digital... assuming these black boxes have the megaflop computing moxie to keep up.

In my brief earlier post, the intellectually disturbing question of "future time travel" was raised. Can Robert explain how an add-on box creates an advance? Or is it a big retard... just guessing, eh?

[boxercup]

Greetings,

Tuning is a science and an art.

We tune for power not Air/Fuel ratios!

After all, it is the power that we are after.