Put away that video camera, it could be a felony!

[hawkeyejohn14]

No offense TM but could you broad brush a little more....?

I love history, I almost majored in it, until I couldn't figure out what to do for a living with it except teach (looking back, not a bad idea). There have been tribes of people moving around this earth taking from weaker people for centuries, exploiting the riches/spoils of the land, whatever they may have seen to be at the time, before there were nations. We are still discovering are past, but we know enough to know that no people are innocent when given the upper hand over another.

[Guest24]

Originally Posted by hawkeyejohn14

No offense TM but could you broad brush a little more....?

I love history, I almost majored in it, until I couldn't figure out what to do for a living with it except teach (looking back, not a bad idea). There have been tribes of people moving around this earth taking from weaker people for centuries, exploiting the riches/spoils of the land, whatever they may have seen to be at the time, before there were nations. We are still discovering are past, but we know enough to know that no people are innocent when given the upper hand over another.

You could do like Nate Kern and race for a living. I believe he taught history in high school prior to mounting the two wheeled rocket.

[throttlemeister]

Originally Posted by hawkeyejohn14

No offense TM but could you broad brush a little more....?

Probably not, but you too will have to acknowledge that the historic knowledge of the average american is not exactly top of the list. Not saying here it is, but still. I browse a lot of international forums and sites, and I don't know if you ever noticed, but whenever someone presents a blatantly false representation of history as fact, you can bet your @$$ it is an American. Maybe I notice more, since like you I love history and always have so I probably am aware a little more than average.

Regardless, it would be good if people did a little research before using history in forum posts and try to get their facts straight before presenting something as fact. Not only does it stop you looking like an ignorant fool to those that do know the facts, it also stops you from unwittingly hurting people to the core of their existence by minimizing or changing facts that are a major fabric of who and what they are.

The comments made here in this thread about the holocaust, basically stating Jews owe it to themselves the Nazi regime was pretty successful in attempting to exterminate them because they did not pick up weapons and put up a fight, is not only historically false it is also extremely insulting to Jews in general and to anyone having lost close relatives in the death-camps in particular. Perhaps people with such a skewed sense of history should consider skipping the bike trip this year and instead book a flight to Munich so they can visit Dachau for some very sobering lessons in WW2 history.

[cageyar]

I've been to Dachau-it is sobering as is the sculpture by Nandor Glid.
The biggest impression I had was how could the inhabitants of the beautiful Dachau village not know what was happening at the camp so close to town-you could have smelled the oven activity if the wind was right.
Be that as it may, and with all due props due our Jewish bretheren who did what they could in the Warsaw ghetto (I'm half Polish half Hungarian-very charming), the best part about being American is not giving a rat's a$$ what other countries like or don't like about us. It's part of our je ne sais quoi............................

[Guest24]

Originally Posted by throttlemeister

...The comments made here in this thread about the holocaust, basically stating Jews owe it to themselves the Nazi regime was pretty successful in attempting to exterminate them because they did not pick up weapons and put up a fight, is not only historically false it is also extremely insulting to Jews in general and to anyone having lost close relatives in the death-camps in particular. Perhaps people with such a skewed sense of history should consider skipping the bike trip this year and instead book a flight to Munich so they can visit Dachau for some very sobering lessons in WW2 history.

I didn't read that but now that I have, Meeting a Luger with a knife is nonsense. If you are a citizen sitting in your comfort zone, you are not ready to be confronted by the SS. Civilized people don't really expect uncivilized acts from a what should be a civilized government.

[Martin Glasser]

Originally Posted by cageyar

, the best part about being American is not giving a rat's a$$ what other countries like or don't like about us. It's part of our je ne sais quoi............................

Well saying you don't care and then trying to win the debate with the military or ideology of democracy is ironic at least.

Were a United States with a strong Federal Government and weak education system, Not that there isn't good teaching but the Least Common Denominator approach sucks.

I know I'd fight back and that I'm a half breed..

[hawkeyejohn14]

Originally Posted by throttlemeister

Probably not, but you too will have to acknowledge that the historic knowledge of the average american is not exactly top of the list. Not saying here it is, but still. I browse a lot of international forums and sites, and I don't know if you ever noticed, but whenever someone presents a blatantly false representation of history as fact, you can bet your @$$ it is an American. Maybe I notice more, since like you I love history and always have so I probably am aware a little more than average.

R

I would agree with you regarding the ones who get on forums like this one and spout off like said individual regarding the Holocaust, lacking any knowledge of the facts of history. On that issue I just considered the source and I tend to ignore his outburst as I try on some some others here as well because it just seems to be a slippery slope getting into any political/religion discussions. Easier to put these folks on a mental block, although they have more to contribute at times mechanically than I probably ever will.

I don't look to get my history lessons here any more than I look to get the truth on the news from fox or rush/beck etc.... We have this whole distortion of the far right/left over here who will say anything or repeat anything they have heard to validate their point. They become a shrill, loud, annoyingly sound trying to drown out any type of reason or discussion.

I would rather have these types of discussion in person face to face where people remain civil and don't hide behind keyboards and funny screen names. Our local newspaper has moved to facebook, at least on those discussions people are not as anonymous, but I still run into racist and fact changers.

I can not speak to your point of U.S. citizens versus the rest of the world as I frequent English speaking sites, except to say I do read the generalizations as if we are all the same and a loss of memory for the Europeans past history of colonization which led to many of the the issues we face today.

[Fenring]

Originally Posted by cageyar

...the best part about being American is not giving a rat's a$$ what other countries like or don't like about us. It's part of our je ne sais quoi............................

I like that. That's funny and true. There's no dispute that USA is rich and powerful and can afford to be blunt. There's just one catch about that, as far as I can see. Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it, or so I hear.

[wiggledbits]

Originally Posted by Fenring

I like that. That's funny and true. There's no dispute that USA is rich and powerful and can afford to be blunt. There's just one catch about that, as far as I can see. Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it, or so I hear.

I agree with that but um that coming from Europe where 2 world wars in less than 20 years originated and better than 1/2 million Americans died as well as countless Europeans, being lectured on history will not sit well with some US peoples. I think being "blunt" is part of what got us to the place that we are. As well as technology of the time not being able to do much to us from that continent.

After all 50 years ago Europe was ruled mostly from cousins doing other cousins. Small gene pool and lots of pettiness.

I'm just saying...

[Guest24]

Personally, I think the USA has softened it tone. We've got a nut bent on building nucs and we are trying to talk him to death (Iran). The Aussie PM goes on national TV and says words to effect "be like us or pack your grip and move north." Nationalism does have its good points. The euro does not a nation make. My 5 cents worth.

[Fenring]

Originally Posted by wiggledbits

I agree with that but um that coming from Europe where 2 world wars in less than 20 years originated and better than 1/2 million Americans died as well as countless Europeans, being lectured on history will not sit well with some US peoples. I think being "blunt" is part of what got us to the place that we are. As well as technology of the time not being able to do much to us from that continent.

After all 50 years ago Europe was ruled mostly from cousins doing other cousins. Small gene pool and lots of pettiness.

I'm just saying...

I'm not saying that Europeans, or Asians, or Indonesians or Africans or Eskimos are somehow better at history than Americans. Obviously, history has shown that most people suck at it, what whit so many repetitions and all. I'm just saying it wouldn't hurt to educate oneself at least about the basic patterns of human behaviour. We live in a world where there has never before been so few wars, conflicts or simple murders and most of this is due to technology that allows information to flow more freely. On that subject it's worth to watch: Steven Pinker on the myth of violence (19 min. presentation).

As far as bluntness goes I believe it's down to whether or not you can afford it, as opposed to it being a willful stand or personal choice. Meaning that those in power will strive to keep it and strengthen their position, and being mild and reserved is no way to do it.

And being thousands of miles away from the nearest serious threat helps as well.

[hawkeyejohn14]

Originally Posted by Fenring

We live in a world where there has never before been so few wars, conflicts or simple murders and most of this is due to technology that allows information to flow more freely. On that subject it's worth to watch: Steven Pinker on the myth of violence (19 min. presentation).

And being thousands of miles away from the nearest serious threat helps as well.

I am not so sure I would agree to you point of living in a world of fewer wars, conflicts and murders. I might think it;s just the opposite, not that whole continents are in conflict the way they were during the WW but just look to what is happening in the Middle East, Asia, Africa, Russia and we have not been void of attacks thankfully we have negated most of them since 9/11 but not all and there have been attacks in England, Spain, France, Germany etc....

When I think of Croatia I think of the beauty and wonderful people, but also of the violence and conflict (Operacija Oluja) you must of had to endure. It is a country of that has seen a long history to be where it is today. A little thanks in the last one to the U.S. Many forget that the U.S.has sacrificed many lives and treasure for the freedom of others because we believe it is the right thing to do and that long term it protects our freedoms as well. I believe some of the arrogance comes the feeling that we are not appreciated for these sacrifices. I personally believe our own foreign agenda squanders much of this goodwill, for example the invasion of Iraq. My .02 worth.

[Fenring]

Originally Posted by hawkeyejohn14

I am not so sure I would agree to you point of living in a world of fewer wars, conflicts and murders. I might think it;s just the opposite, not that whole continents are in conflict the way they were during the WW but just look to what is happening in the Middle East, Asia, Africa, Russia and we have not been void of attacks thankfully we have negated most of them since 9/11 but not all and there have been attacks in England, Spain, France, Germany etc....

When I think of Croatia I think of the beauty and wonderful people, but also of the violence and conflict (Operacija Oluja) you must of had to endure. It is a country of that has seen a long history to be where it is today. A little thanks in the last one to the U.S. Many forget that the U.S.has sacrificed many lives and treasure for the freedom of others because we believe it is the right thing to do and that long term it protects our freedoms as well. I believe some of the arrogance comes the feeling that we are not appreciated for these sacrifices. I personally believe our own foreign agenda squanders much of this goodwill, for example the invasion of Iraq. My .02 worth.

It's not my point of view, it's only a statistical fact. If you have a minute to watch Pinker's presentation, you'll see that there's a consistent drop of violent deaths per number of living. The apparent rise of violence is actually a consequence of increased media coverage, that is biased towards reports on violent crimes, or any crimes for that matter. The fact that we perceive this as a deterioration is actually a good sign, because as the quality and therefore the value of life increases, proportionally our tolerance for violence decreases.

In short, look at the bright side and try not to watch and read too many news.

As far as the operation Oluja (Storm) is concerned, that was actually the relief as it marked the end of war and it's still controversial because it displaced a great number of local Serbs, but that's a whole other box of problems. Really bad times were during the beginning ('91. ~ '93.) when we had very small amounts of arms, the embargo was on, and our defenses were inadequate and we suffered many losses, both human and material. Although this is still unofficial and denied, the US did help operation Oluja with tactical support and essentially by giving us a green light.

And yes, the US did sacrifice a lot, both in human lives and material wealth, and more often then not for a good cause, and maybe I'm just too cynical, but it's hard too believe that Americans did it purely out of the goodness of their heart. There's always somehow money involved. Although many of my countryman might disagree, even our (latest) war for independence was actually about money. A small group of insiders that saw profit in it.

[wiggledbits]

Originally Posted by Fenring

And yes, the US did sacrifice a lot, both in human lives and material wealth, and more often then not for a good cause, and maybe I'm just too cynical, but it's hard too believe that Americans did it purely out of the goodness of their heart. There's always somehow money involved. Although many of my countryman might disagree, even our (latest) war for independence was actually about money. A small group of insiders that saw profit in it.

My post above and this are just one man's opinions, this man's opinions.

You are right about the money or the desire/need to keep trade open and resources flowing is often the driver for getting into conflicts for the US and other nations. Like it or not we live in a world where trade in goods and resources is needed for the well being of all. I just don't adhere to the notion that in the US wars are wagged for the profit. Now many do profit and may even advocate for a conflict solely for the purpose of profit.

[wiggledbits]

Originally Posted by Fenring

And being thousands of miles away from the nearest serious threat helps as well.

With our fluid boarders and the politically correct communities trying for a safe haven country we are not immune from attacks from far off lands. Fortunately we have the technology to thwart those attacks for now both at home and abroad. Keeping the US safe helps greatly to keep the rest of the world safe when speaking of those bent on a 7th century mind set.

[hawkeyejohn14]

Fenring I don't believe the average U.S. citizen, meaning the majority of us profits from any kind of war. You are talking about Cheney and his buddies at halliburton and anyone investing in the companies that make their money off arms sales. I will check out Pinkers's presentation as you suggest so I can see what you are writing about. As a country we pay for these wars long after they are over taking care of veterans who have lost limbs, had brain injuries and PTS and we don't do a great job at that, we are accepting guys into the program from Vietnam that should of been accepted a long time ago. This not only effects the soldier but their families as well and I personally know many who are sacrificing right now for Iraq and Afghanistan. It is tough on the all involved.

[throttlemeister]

At least you guys respect and support your veterans. Something they could take a lesson or two from in this country. They don't even get a military funeral if they are KIA. Now, I understand that it is the families choice here and they have to ask for it. But it should be standard for the military to give the families the ritual of a full military funeral and show the respect and appreciation for the ultimate sacrifice a soldier made for their country, unless very specifically requested otherwise. But I guess that's just me.

[SergioK]

Getting back to topic: http://www.mclu.org/node/653

Sixteen Years in Prison for Videotaping the Police?
edward's picture
by edward | July 22, 2010 - 11:22am
The ACLU of Maryland is defending Anthony Graber, who potentially faces sixteen years in prison if found guilty of violating state wiretap laws because he recorded video of an officer drawing a gun during a traffic stop. In a trend that we've seen across the country, police have become increasingly hostile to bystanders recording their actions. You can read some examples here, here and here.

However, the scale of the Maryland State Police reaction to Anthony Graber's video is unprecedented. Once they learned of the video on YouTube, Graber's parents house was raided, searched, and four of his computers were confiscated. Graber was arrested, booked and jailed. Their actions are a calculated method of intimidation. Another person has since been similarly charged under the same statute.

The wiretap law being used to charge Anthony Graber is intended to protect private communication between two parties. According to David Rocah, the ACLU attorney handling Mr. Graber's case, "To charge Graber with violating the law, you would have to conclude that a police officer on a public road, wearing a badge and a uniform, performing his official duty, pulling someone over, somehow has a right to privacy when it comes to the conversation he has with the motorist."

Wow, he's a Staff Sergeant with the Nat'l Guard... http://www.aclu-md.org/aPress/Press2010/Graber_Factsheet.pdf WTF is wrong with the DA in Maryland?

[hawkeyejohn14]

we know all this I see nothing new or are you trying to refocus us hard to do until there is some real resolution to this situation. it is hard for me to believe that leo will win this one and when they lose they will then face a law suit on how they handled the situation.

[jduke]

Two points:
1 - dollars to donuts, the Harford state attorney is a Republican
2 - remember this the next time someone rags on the ACLU