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The greatest puzzle (R12S idle)
OK friends, here's the ultimate remote diagnosis for you all:
The good news: I think that I've found some idi... er...I mean Investor to buy that R12S of mine. That is rather a miracle here in Greece. Cross fingers (never a boxer again, even a Porsche designed LC next Big Thing). The bad news: As everyone knows the thing doesn't idle. Period. A day zero issue, almost 3 years and counting. Numerous visits in the 2 main dealers (both friends), N tests in GT-1, coils + plugs + you named it checked (TPS included), 2 sets of new idle actuators (made in Mexico, God help us all), another new right actuator, every throttle/idle actuator sync imaginable, injectors cleaned (no need), bike resprayed (pink), RapidSomething active/inactive/you name it, adaption BMS-K table cleared, 34 bottles of vodka, 5 blonds, 7 brunettes, 567 Marlboro (red) > result: no idle. The ugly news: No idle means various options: (a) start the bike > rpm is 2K, then 1K, then anything in between, bike runs in the "1.5 cylinders" mode etc etc (b) start the bike > rpm is OK (1.2k) then ride the bike for some distance then stop to some traffic light then go to (a) and/or to (c), (c) start the bike > rpm is 1K and dying. Any suggestion? (other than replacing both injector bodies - complete set, a snip at 1.5K min) |
PS: Maybe I should treat the injector combo (and the bike) with my delicate problem solving tool? That's the 1M question.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1276842455.jpg |
That is my conclusion! Remember how the R11s TB's would rattle at idle ? Air leak at the O ring on the Brass shaft. Brass shaft goes through a throttle body that's made of some sort of to soft aluminum alloy.
I think the same applies to the R12S idle actuators. I have 2 new actuators sitting on the shelf. The ones that are on the bike are starting to do the 1.5 occasionly. Those were replaced maybe at 8k. My point being is I think the TB housing is made of junk alloy and after a while the actuater piston occasionaly hangs up in the bore. I remember someone saying they finally had the complete TB's changed under wtty. and that it fixed the 1.5 for good. have a nice day. tjs |
I seem to be having the same problem.
Bike starts and runs fine.......ride for a bit......come to a stop and bike might stall or idles drops to about 800 rpm and feels like it is running on one cylinder. The bike pulls fine above idle.... You would think that most hard parts ( actuators, stepper motors, throttle bodies, magic electrics )should last more than 13,000 miles? Hopefully I will get a chance to look into it over the weekend as I can't get it to the dealer ( warranty ) as he is backed up for 2 weeks. Maybe it's time to do a carb conversion? Any suggestions? Cheers |
Well friends,
Having 30+ bikes across the years, I can confirm that this particular Beemer of mine is THE crap of them all. What a terrible mistake of mine (did I mention my latest OEM crappy friction plate problems? Don't ask...). Anyway, a friend of mine has a GS here in Greece. He's after various mods (did the piston/rod thing, put a RapidMaybeYesMaybeNo and now has the R12S TB on sight). He's lucky > found a "as-new" (really) full set at this incredible price on e-bay : Now, he has the things that I need and I have a crappy bike that I don't. Moral: Life's *****. |
Posts like Peter's make me love my 03 BCP even more. Dead steady, smooth idle at 1,100 rpm regardless of ambient air temps. As in 1k miles at 90-95 degrees at 70-75 mph, or faster, on a run to Arkansas and back to Texas last week. Plus, absolutely no vibration of any kind up to 5k rpms. Rode today here in north Texas in an ambient temp of 97 degrees, open road nd running at 100 mph or better a good part of the time. Not a whimper or a hiccup, and I could hold my hand on either valve cover without getting scalded.
P.S. Peter, just an idea, the 370 Collins injectors might be an option worth looking at. |
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Here's the strange thing > I've contacted RC long time ago by providing exact info about my injectors....in fact I've modeled one and mail the 3d-PDF file to RC. RC said at the time: Hello Peter, After examining the pdf file, it appears that our injector will not fit. The o-ring to o-ring length is about 31 mm longer than the factory injector. In addition, our injector is not available with the long tube below the lower o-ring. The 3D perspective was nicely done. Good luck, John Park General Manager RC Engineering, Inc. 20807 Higgins Ct. Torrance, Ca 90501 T (310) 320-2277 F (310) 782-1346 rceng.com However, Kostas (the lunatic Greek with the GS on steroids mentioned above) did the same thing - he send them an injector - and RC said: Hello Kostas, We received the sample injector yesterday afternoon. Initial testing shows the injector is rated at about 315cc/min at 3 bar. After examining the injector, we may have a suitable upgrade available. The only difference between the two is that our upgrade does not have the extended barrel section after the lower o-ring. The o-ring to o-ring length is identical, as is the connector. Saturated Injector SM2-0370 This injector is rated at 370cc/min and should support about 120 hp. What ECU system is currently on the BMW? Regards, John Question : I know my bad karma, but how's possible the NO Sir answer becoming "MAY have an upgrade" ????? Moral: I'm working for it. |
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The 370 Collins injectors on my 1100S are 12.7mm (1/2") longer than the stock BMW injectors. They were a perfect fit in the throttle body, and I got chromed 1/2" spacers to mount them with no problem. P.S. The Collins guy was right, you did an excellent CAD rendition on the injector.
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Mee too
I seem to have the same problem, and it is somewhat intermittent. I have had the dealer look at it twice. Once replaced a coil, checked throttle bod sync, did valves, etc to make sure all was right on. Second I took it they did nothing because it would not "duplicate the problem" ..until down the road a ways after I left!
Someone suggested that ethanol in the fuel may be the culprit. Could be, as it seems to be a little better if no ethanol. But I have a hard time finding fuel without it. The bad thing is that sometimes at a light or when idling through, clutch in,shifting to first, it dies on me -- not good. Another possibility is that an FRK chip could help the idle problem. Bob had the problem when he first tried the FRK, then had them retuned to run smoother at idle. Opinions? The rear brake that works like scrubbing a wet piece of fur on the wheel, and this idle problem are the worst two things about an otherwise superb machine. I love the bike but I hate when it chokes out at idle! dp Quote:
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after reading all this I weep not a drop for not having a 12.
My 11 starts, idles perfectly, pulls redline in 6th, gets 45+MPG and is paid for...with a ton of farkles. ah.....I'm a happy 11 owner indeed:) |
What kind of diagnostics have you done? For instance, reading your posts it seems reasonable that the idle actuators could be erratic. So, if you have a point in time where the bike runs properly, maybe you can disable them so they stay in one place. See if that keeps the problem at bay. Or manually open the right-side throttle body slightly to see if it levels out (not having a TPS the computer won't know). Or look to see if the fuel injection pulse stays the same on each side. Or see if the actuators are moving when you get the problem (or right before it). There are ways to put a telltale on nearly anything.
The engine management is really good but it might be tripping over itself in this case. If one side drops out the computer will compensate with the other (although in the case of the injectors this will leave a fault code). |
Good tips Anton;
By disabling the idle actuators........do you mean just disconnecting the electrical plug that is attached to them? Can you do this without any other repercussions with the bike running? blkduc1...............my bike runs best with the Techlusion hooked up.........if I disconnect it and run the bike stock or when the booster plug was installed.........the bike ran worse for some reason............what my testing told me.......was that the problem was with the stock BMW system, not the Techlusion or BoosterPlug. Cheers |
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1. Dealer N2 did a "reset" (the Nth in a row) with that GT-1. Supposedly that could reset the idle things as well (if you buy this you can buy anything). Now...the bike starting from cold ...has a 1400rpm idle - or 2000, or 1653,45 (but I don't care anymore). 2. In 99% of the cases my "no idle" happens after the bike does some miles...and when I stop to some traffic light etc (but I don't care any more). 3. Dealer N1 says that the TB are "deformed" and/or faulty and/or the right one is maybe "deformed" (but I don't care any more). PS: For the "I don't care any more" here's the following 3 arguments: a 998S running faultlessly (and the bike that defined the 20th century, an Icon, a passion) plus a lethal RR working OK (minus some thing) plus a R100GS doing the archeological part of the whole motorcycling thing. |
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Dealer has replaced the idle actuators, which stopped the bike from falling into a stall, but I'm still getting the drop to a 800 RPM "rough idle" on occasion. BMW thinks the injectors need replacing. Seeing as I've just been told my "2007" was actually put on the road by BMW in spring 2006 (and is therefore out of warranty), I think perhaps I'll just live with it. Let me know how you fare with them! |
Anyway,
I had an interesting talking with BMW Hellas CEO Mr Nice Guy Jr. (pictured). The man said that I have absolutely no reason to complain about that excellent (?) piece of German Engineering since no GT-1 reading has ever shown any malfunctioning sensor/component/condition/you name it (sensors made in Timbuktu are the good ones). http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277273111.jpg He also said that in case that I persist annoying the highly (?) trained and skillful (?) Dealer personnel with imaginary faults, there’s no other way to protect the Brand’s Noble Name (what he means by that?) other than to undertake the appropriate legal action(s). I said that ME is the one who maybe should consider some other type of actions against BMW for severely damaging my mental (not to mention financial) health. I’ve mentioned the numerous bottles of Vodka used as well (to help me find the Truth Out There). No common point on sight, mind. |
If there has never been a fault code, that tells you that the fault is somewhere that the BMS cannot see. That's useful information. For instance, it doesn't know if the coils are working (it cannot see the secondary windings) but it does know if the injectors are disconnected. It can probably see a dead stepper motor but maybe not a stuck plunger.
If you have a scanner (like a GS-911) you could observe some of the outputs such as injection time. That will tell you if the engine is compensating for something when you get the idle problem. Whatever is happening WILL be visible by observing the right output. I just don't have a list of possible fault codes. For instance, if the engine becomes too out-of-balance left to right, will it register some kind of 'excessive compensation required' code? I don't think so. But watching the injection time and stepper position you will still see this. Sounds like a fun project if the tools are available. Pretty frustrating if they're not, I can tell. |
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I can find a GS-911 rather easily (from various friends). Problem is : can the gizmo operate in "on-line" mode? that is: being connected when you ride the bike? (remember that the issue emerge when I stop in some traffic lights, in most of times anyway). And if yes, has the gizmo some data logging capabilities? that is: can you download the full aperture of data (or at least some aperture of data) to some PC? (in order to start the WW3 with dealer N1/N2/Nn and maybe Mr Nice Guy Jr?). |
The software has been improving over time, so check out the latest capabilities on their website.
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I'm sorry to say my R1200S starts up instantly every time, idles perfectly for as long as I need it to, never stutters or stalls, and all the flat spots other complain about do not exist.
I have a cat-less header, out-of-the-box-settings on a Techlusion device, stock air filter, battery tender... and I use Chevron 94 with Techron (98 RON) as it is the highest octane fuel available locally. Oh yeah... custom seat, frequent waxing (bike), and a carbon hugger... and good karma apparently. There is a good parallel post by "backwoodsboy" describing his solution to this.... Ian |
Peter, this is probably completely useless to you, but the K1300S similar problems. Dealers would try anything, and nothing would fix it. Until BMW came with a software update of the BMS-K.
Sounds like the R12S ECU can use a bit of updating too? Do you have the latest software in it? |
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That said, I had for a very sort period (3 months) a K12R that spend his life mostly connected with GT-1 in a fruitless effort to fix things that nobody knew a thing about...until I found someone brave enough (a naif cousin) and got rid of it. If my nerves are OK (doubtful) I'll try this weekend to inquire the motor with a borrowed GT-911 and I'll post here whatever that yellow gizmo is capable to upload (some excel lists I've been told, don't ask what they contain). Mysteriously my RR works OK - but never is too late with fine German engineering (so to speak). I'm thinking to tour Sahara with the thing (dressed appropriately - Lawrence Of Arabia style etc etc). |
Hi,
Maybe I got this wrong but, but doesn't this thread seemingly solve the problem? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/549508-r12s-idle-problems-fixed-hard-accel-problems-fixed.html |
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No I'm afraid since the fuel system (as a whole) has been checked and checked...and checked. Plenty of time: almost 2 years this problem tantalize my nerves...I mean when I ride the thing, a fact that occurs rather rarely these days (because in addition to the idle issue the crappy OEM friction plate is kaput and RB Racing...well you know their "virtual" solutions on that matter). Moral: it's all about karma. |
in BMW cars of the mid 90's variety, the Idle air controller gets carboned up and needs cleaned with electrical cleaner.
then after that to cure a 'hunting idle' problem, the TPS sensor is replaced. what does tha have to do with an R12S? dunno, but I threw it out there. It fixed my problem on my BMW cage. |
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Some generic data first: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277657741.jpg Then this: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277657786.jpg and that: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277657815.jpg and that: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277657852.jpg and something not that good: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277657891.jpg ditto: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277657921.jpg |
PS: Idle actuator cyl 2 chart is 100% identical to cyl 1, meaning that at least the super gizmo calibrated these ugly things.
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Save the data in CSV or some 'safe' format.
The part I'm looking at is between 50 and 60 where it runs the RPM back up to 1400. You have a succession of low values on the O2 sensors, the idle actuators ratchet up, what happens to the injection duration at that time? If you look at all of the numbers together, you might see what started it. The O2 results are normal, in the general sense. They naturally swing wildly. But the only time they stop swinging is in that 50-60 section where the idle jumps again. |
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Download log 2010-06-27.xls, upload your files and earn money. 2010-06-27.xls |
I have the answer!
HSR 42 mikunis simple:) |
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It's a shame that I can't ride AND log some stuff, because the great differences occur during ride/stop/ride/etc etc. MoTec M4/400 anyone? (I'm that close to discard that ugly BMS-K - not to mention RapidWorksWhenItWorks- and start from a clean sheet) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277706459.jpg |
here's a combined rpm/injection graph
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277731396.jpg PS: if anyone can explain the weird Throttle Valve Position values... |
That's getting kind of interesting. At the times that the idle goes up, the BMS is decreasing the injection times and raising the stepper value (I don't know if that means more air or less air). However, both of those are outputs. I think we need to look at inputs to figure out what the BMS is responding to. I can't tell if the BMS is responding to the increase in idle speed or if it's causing it in response to something else, but it sort of looks like it's responding to it.
Inputs would be air temp, engine temp, O2, RPM, knock. Do you have temperature logs? The O2 sensor voltage drops down very low during that time, which is lean. Is it possible that you have an air leak? I wish I knew which way the stepper worked. If the BMS is decreasing the fuel and air, then it's probably responding to an outside influence. Have you checked the fuel pressure? BTW I also don't understand those throttle position values, but it seemto be going between zero and full. Could it be as simple as a bad TPS? Or bad wiring to the TPS, or a problem within the BMS? |
Anton,
Yes, the fuel pressure is checked. Note: this log is performed with bike hot (to approximate the ride/stop/ride/stop etc etc...but that's nonsense, only an "on-board" GS911 when riding could "emulate" the real-life thing). With regard the full aperture of data that the gizmo provides: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277736953.jpg With regard temperature data (but I don't have a 2nd engine head temp sensor - I made a post a year ago and several others said the same): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277737064.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277737102.jpg With regard knock values (a VERY odd reading due to differences that can't be explained - log captured at idle etc etc): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277737181.jpg |
Yikes > engine/air temp legend text are the other way round (obviously).
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Would be nice to have an idle log from a non-problematic bike!
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But...wait... Dealer N2 said that someone has a Colgate R12S for sale. Cross fingers. |
If you plot the Cylinder 2 Lambda control factor against the RPM, it REALLY looks like that correction is driving the RPM changes. It would be interesting to look at it vs the stepper motor position but (and I don't understand this) it looks like the two steppers stay synchronized at all times. I would expect to see each of them moving separately.
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plugs?
Sounds like what mine does, when it does it, is very similar.
ANd you can feel it start to idle rough, like one cylinder starts to miss, or it gets weak or something. Could the action of the two spark plugs per cylinder working together somehow be affecting the smoothness of idle? Sure would like to find the solution. ... Could it actually be the fuel pump, as that previous post suggests? Keep us posted, Peter f. Perhaps someone here could run the same graphs you did on a flawless bike? Would that be comparable? dp |
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277742396.jpg PS: the super GS gizmo did a sync on these ugly idle actuators. Er...I mean...some "lock sync", he he. PS: The idle actuators (valves) are a kind of "piston" (with conical end) driven via an ugly mini step motor (Mexico here I come, these things are NOT made in Germany). The cone on it's lowest position blocks the auxiliary air passage. Thus it's reasonable to assume that 0 equals the "block air" state and 50 equals the "max air" state. PS: of course buying the GS gizmo is the only way to trace the problem across a meaningful operational range. I mean, who with his right mind could borrow me the GS for a week for some "on-board" logs? (wife could hold the PC). PS: if anyone has a healthy R12S and the GS 911 thing...well people give me some help (a similar idle log report, that is) and I'll give you no less than 3 mobile phones belonging to some super hot brunettes in Greece (ideal for wild vacations Curfu, Myconos, Creta, Rhodes etc etc - leave wife at home) |
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