LN vs Pelican IMS bearing replacement

[tonythetarga]

I have done the LN IMS bearing replacement on my 996 which I just sold. Part of the deal was to take a Boxster in trade that has not had the bearing done. I have read many posts about cars with the LN IMS bearing in place but have not read about anyone that I can recall that has put in the Pelican bearing. I am leaning towards the Pelican upgrade this time but am interested in feedback from those that have put it in and put some miles on the engine.
The intended use for the car will be typical pleasure driving plus 2-3 DE's a year.

[Jeff396]

Hey,

I'm wrestling with the same question right now. This is where I'm at from what I've read. The Pelican bearing is pretty much the same as the stock one in that it's completely sealed but has better seals than the original. It also will suffer from the same shortcomings of the stock bearing eventually due to the expansion and contraction from the engine heat cycles causing the seal to have positive and negative pressure cycles which the seal will eventually not be able to withstand. It's suggested you change it out every 30 to 45k miles while doing the clutch. Of course I really don't think that with the way I drive a new clutch will be needed at that interval so I'm thinking the LN bearing may be a better solution for me. With you're taking the car to the track occasionally it may require clutch changes more often so this may be a good fit for you.

The LN bearing isn't sealed so it's using the motor oil to keep it lubed instead of the grease that comes in the Pelican bearing. The LN bearing uses materials that are better suited to operating where there's not much oil getting to the bearing. My problem with this option is that I now see it being suggested that it might also be a good idea to change their bearing out as certain mileage intervals. Problem with that is apparently LN will not sell the bearing separately so you have to spend $600 each time you do this. Now I'm not like others where I expect to get the bearing for $30 but I sure can't see having to pay for an IMS bearing cover, stud and nut each time I decide to do this. I don't think it's unreasonable to sell the bearing and seals separately to people who have already purchased their kit but who am I.

I think the ultimate solution is this one being worked on by a member of this forum coupled with the LN bearing but it's not available yet.

Who has done an IMS change (New Oil Fed Design Idea)

My car has 60k miles on it and I doubt the IMS has ever been touched. Currently, I don't have a leak coming from the IMS/RMS area so I think I'm first going to pop for the IMS guardian for some peace of mind in addition to changing the oil fairly often. Until I get the IMS guardian installed I plan on changing the oil by 5000 miles at least and will more than likely drop the oil filter for a looks see more often than that. I have the spin on filter conversion. Does anyone have a better way to cut it open than a punch and tin snips???

Anyways, hope you don't mind the info regurge but it helps me to decide by writing it out. Anyone.......please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. I Hope this helps.

Jeff

[The Radium King]

i think if you have a 98 you'll have to replace the flange as well. once you factor that into the price, the pelican product isn't much less expensive than the lne product; for a few extra bucks you get something good for life instead of good for 30k.

[black_box]

either way you go - be sure to do the job with the crank locked out at TDC - otherwise that shaft can move once the cover is removed!

[tonythetarga]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

i think if you have a 98 you'll have to replace the flange as well. once you factor that into the price, the pelican product isn't much less expensive than the lne product; for a few extra bucks you get something good for life instead of good for 30k.

Good point on the flange, but even with that it is still about 1/2 price. After 25 or 30k I could do it again and only need another bearing for $169 and would still be ahead.
I am still leaning toward the Pelican flange and putting some faith in Wayne having done a lot of homework before he puts it out there under the Pelican banner.

I would still like to know if anyone that has it in place has really pushed the engine under track conditions.

[Wayne 962]

The kit that I created for Pelican uses the same bearing as Porsche does. It is simply a replacement for the factory bearing, which we have seen to be reliable for about 30,000 miles. The stud has had some issues with snapping, so I re-designed the stud to be stronger with a compressible o-ring design that I copied from the through-bolt design present on the older air-cool Porsche 911 engines. Seems to work fine - no leaks and you can reuse the existing flange.

The "Pelican kit" is nothing more than a replacement for the factory bearing. As such, it replaces the factory bearing with one that does not fix all of the issues that are present within the design faults of the engine - it simply resets the clock back to zero on the life of the bearing. The LN kit (which we also sell) contains a custom-designed ceramic bearing that theoretically will last a lot longer than the original Porsche bearing. However, LN has indeed seen at least one failure of this bearing (detailed on their website) so they too recommend replacement of the LN kit / bearing after about 30,000 miles as well.

I designed the "Pelican Kit" to be a lower-cost alternative to the LN ceramic bearing. If you can afford it, the theory is that the LN kit contains a stronger bearing and will last longer. If you're planning on changing it every 30,000 miles or so regardless (which for most owners might be every 3-5 years, which is a relatively long time), then the "Pelican Kit" would probably be fine.

Keep in mind that we have also seen failures of the IMS bearing at 30,000 miles too. So, like death and taxes, nothing in life is guaranteed. These engines apparently have an inherent design deficiency that causes this bearing to fail in some engines. But, the "Pelican Kit" or the LN kit and frequent oil changes should considerably mitigate your risk of IMS failure.

-Wayne

[mikefocke]

We have seen failures of the original Porsche bearings at well less than half the suggested 30k interval. I recall one car with two IMS failures within the first 30k. Think of the failures as occurring on a bell curve, some are going to be on either end.

If LN has one (unexplained by installation issues) failure, how good is that considering over 5k sold? And a history going back to 2008. LN recommends, as of today on their web site, inspection or replacement at 50-60k miles or 4-5 years.

I look at the Pelican and LN bearings as both having bell curves of failures, with Pelican's kit restarting the clock (as does LN's) but with LN's having a curve which ramps up less steeply (fewer early failures) and whose curve is displaced to the right relative to the original/Pelican bearing. In other words, your probability of failure at 2 years (for example) is less with the LN solution than with the original/Pelican bearing. I infer this displacement from the recommended replacement intervals.

Does that mean Pelican's kit is bad, no. It resets the clock and strengthens other parts. And it is a cheaper alternative. But as I read all the postings, web sites and other sources, it seems to me the LN bearing gives better long term probability of failure free use thus giving you a better chance to get to one of the other 22 failure modes that can take out the engine.

So if you are only going to keep the car for a few years and want to advertise that you changed the IMS bearing, then you may take a different course than if you were intending to keep the car twice as long.

These aren't the only solutions available now and there are others working on commercializing other designs for you.

[tonythetarga]

Thanks Wayne,
if your bearing is the same bearing that Porsche uses, how is it that your kit will fit for either a single or double row bearing? I thought it was a completely different unit that also allows for a thicker bolt.
If you mean that it is a sealed bearing similar to the factory sealed bearing, then I get it...but the "same" bearing?

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by tonythetarga

Thanks Wayne,
if your bearing is the same bearing that Porsche uses, how is it that your kit will fit for either a single or double row bearing? I thought it was a completely different unit that also allows for a thicker bolt.
If you mean that it is a sealed bearing similar to the factory sealed bearing, then I get it...but the "same" bearing?

It's the same as the single-row bearing, and the kit comes with spacers to use with the double-row bearing. History has seemed to indicate that neither the single nor double-row bearings seem to be better than one or another.

The kit with the spacers is fully documented in the article here: Pelican Technical Article: Boxster Intermediate Shaft Bearing Replacement and Upgrade (IMS) - 986 Boxster (1997-04) - 987 Boxster (2005-06)

-Wayne

[Miguel Antonett]

What's the feedback with Boxters/Caymans "S" IMS/RMS issues after 2006, let's say 2007 and newer?

[mikefocke]

The problem with getting any feel for how the Gen 3 bearings are doing is really the same as we had in the early days of the Boxster...most have been under warranty and thus handled by Porsche via an engine swap so not as much is heard about them. Having said that, the only solution if a Gen 3 IMS fails is the replacement of the IMS itself and the only source I know of is LN and they have sold very few. So while it is really early to be passing final judgement on the Gen 3 design's success, early returns are seemingly better than the prior versions.

[tomk]

hi,
i bought my Boxster with 155k with the original IMS installed. i had to remove the gearbox to repair a broken clutch arm and replaced the IMS and RMS etc at the same time. the original double row bearing was in perfect condition, and i replaced it with the single row bearing and the spacer kit and reused the original cover with the o-ring compressed on the center stud. its only been a thousand miles since but everything abot this kit worked well, and fit well. it doesnt leak and i expect it to last for a long time. this was the lowest cost option. very satisfied with the choice to go this way so far. i dont own a shop manual, everything i needed to understand was very clearly illustrated on this website. just my humble experience

just wanted to add that everything for the entire project was purchased from our host and am very appreciative of the one stop shop for parts and resources to complete the entire project. My car is a '99 2.5 one owner before me car.

[tonythetarga]

Thanks tomk that is the kind of feedback I was interested in. Glad you have no leaks with reusing the same cover plate.

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by tomk

hi,
i bought my Boxster with 155k with the original IMS installed. i had to remove the gearbox to repair a broken clutch arm and replaced the IMS and RMS etc at the same time. the original double row bearing was in perfect condition, and i replaced it with the single row bearing and the spacer kit and reused the original cover with the o-ring compressed on the center stud. its only been a thousand miles since but everything abot this kit worked well, and fit well. it doesnt leak and i expect it to last for a long time. this was the lowest cost option. very satisfied with the choice to go this way so far. i dont own a shop manual, everything i needed to understand was very clearly illustrated on this website. just my humble experience

There is only one word to describe your post - impressive

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by tonythetarga

Thanks tomk that is the kind of feedback I was interested in. Glad you have no leaks with reusing the same cover plate.

Our kit comes with a new o-ring, which should be renewed when you remove the cover plate...

-Wayne

[tonythetarga]

Thanks Wayne. I think I am going to try your kit. Are the O rings sold seperately in the event I want to inspect the bearing after, say, 10,000 miles of driving?

Thanks again for the great site!

[Miguel Antonett]

It appears to be a 50/50 deal... Hey guys, how about enjoying our cars the way it should instead of worrying so much about ther IF game?

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by Miguel Antonett

It appears to be a 50/50 deal... Hey guys, how about enjoying our cars the way it should instead of worrying so much about ther IF game?

Mig. That sounds like a very good suggestion. However some people will worry anyway. You make choices in this world. And that is one thing I do not worry about as I have the IMS Guardian. On the other hand if I did not worry about anything, I would not get out of bed in the morning. No worries!

[ronster]

Originally Posted by Miguel Antonett

It appears to be a 50/50 deal... Hey guys, how about enjoying our cars the way it should instead of worrying so much about ther IF game?

I bought my '99 Boxster with 74K miles and was told about the horrors of IMS failure by the first mechanic I took it to. I decided to ignore him and went Axing and tracking for another 10K miles. I then decided I really wanted to keep the car and decided to replace the IMS and RMS. I went with the LN bearing based on test data that indicates a 5:1 longevity ratio of ceramic vs metal bearings. At the time the cost in labor and materials was $1,800 and that vs upwards of $15K to replace the motor (motor+labor) was a worthwhile investment to me.
The OEM IMS at 84K miles was not leaking but the seal had broken, the lubricant was gone, it had a little play in it and some really foul smelling, black oil came out. The RMS was also not leaking but was the old style seal and I had it replaced with the new silicon version.
I made my decision based on my desire to keep the car and minimize one of the main causes of engine failure and use the part that gave me the best chance of doing that.

[tonythetarga]

Originally Posted by Miguel Antonett

It appears to be a 50/50 deal... Hey guys, how about enjoying our cars the way it should instead of worrying so much about ther IF game?

If an engine was the same price as an oil change I'd just drive the $h*t out of the car and forget about it...but engines are not cheap and cost more to replace than the whole car is worth, so a bit of prevention is WAY smarter than throwing caution to the wind and shrugging my shoulders when the thing blows up.