Code Help - P0410 & P1411, How serious is this?

[NY930]

Code Help - P0410 & P1411, How serious is this?

- P 0410, Secondary Air Injection System Malfunction.

- P 1411, Manufacturers Control Auxiliary Emissions Control.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated

Thanks.

[paulv]

Those two codes go together. The function of the SAI system is to start the oxidation process of hydrocarbons while the cat converter is heating up. Don't ignore it -- the system needs to be fixed. Sent you a PM.

Regards,
paul...

[ProjectM96]

I had those codes a while ago. When I did some research online, it seemed the most common problem for it was a vacuum leak or the cut-off/check valve. The air pump is also a probable cause. Over time, it can start to cause problems.

It went away by itself in my car when I sprayed WD-40 around the hoses. Just a temporary fix.

[Maj75]

Originally Posted by paulv

Those two codes go together. The function of the SAI system is to start the oxidation process of hydrocarbons while the cat converter is heating up. Don't ignore it -- the system needs to be fixed. Sent you a PM.

Regards,
paul...

Why does it need to be fixed? As I understand it this system only works on start-up. If the car is running well otherwise, what harm is being done to the engine? IIRC it is possible to turn off this "feature" by reprogramming the ECU/DME to a Euro Mode as other countries do not monitor this.

I could see if there was some sort of vacuum leak leading to rough running or lean condition, but I feel that I am wasting too much time trying to trouble shoot this code. I want to turn off the monitoring of the Secondary Air Pump and cap the vacuum fitting in the system so there can't be a leak in the future.

My car runes perfect, but I have had the car in the shop 3 times to fix this issue and each time the CEL lights-up after driving the car for 3-4 days. They have checked the hoses and replaced the solenoid but the problem comes back. They have checked and the air pump turns on. Since the CEL does not come on right away, it is hard to trouble shoot and frustrating to have to take the car back after each attempt. Its a pain to drop the car off and arrange a ride back home.

I have asked that when I take the car in for its next oil change that the shop reset the ECU/DME to the EURO NORM 3 setting which is supposed to stop the monitoring of the function of the P0410 & P1411 codes...

[paulv]

Originally Posted by Maj75

Why does it need to be fixed? As I understand it this system only works on start-up.

...

It works on start up and also during long idling when the O2 sensor cools down and the engine goes out of closed loop. IMO, it's an emissions control device and should be working and I hope others feel the same way. I know people who have vented the PCV gases into the air on their cars (non-Porsche). I just like breathing clean air which is why I support getting stuff like that fixed.

Sorry, I don't have a definitive answer to your "why" question.

Regards,
paul...

[ronster]

Originally Posted by Maj75

Why does it need to be fixed? As I understand it this system only works on start-up. If the car is running well otherwise, what harm is being done to the engine? IIRC it is possible to turn off this "feature" by reprogramming the ECU/DME to a Euro Mode as other countries do not monitor this.

I could see if there was some sort of vacuum leak leading to rough running or lean condition, but I feel that I am wasting too much time trying to trouble shoot this code. I want to turn off the monitoring of the Secondary Air Pump and cap the vacuum fitting in the system so there can't be a leak in the future.

My car runes perfect, but I have had the car in the shop 3 times to fix this issue and each time the CEL lights-up after driving the car for 3-4 days. They have checked the hoses and replaced the solenoid but the problem comes back. They have checked and the air pump turns on. Since the CEL does not come on right away, it is hard to trouble shoot and frustrating to have to take the car back after each attempt. Its a pain to drop the car off and arrange a ride back home.

I have asked that when I take the car in for its next oil change that the shop reset the ECU/DME to the EURO NORM 3 setting which is supposed to stop the monitoring of the function of the P0410 & P1411 codes...

It needs to be fixed because eventually it will bring up a CEL and the codes will be stored until it is. Without the secondary air, on start up, you run the risk of running too rich and having raw fuel dumped into the cats which will cause them to fail and I don't want to tell you how much they are unless you are strapped in somewhere. The CEL and stored codes will not even allow an emissions station to test your car because the first thing their computers do is check for codes and if present the test is aborted.
I had the same issue about a year ago and spent a lot of money trying to fix it so here is my advice from what I learned for what it's worth. First off determine if you secondary air pump is working by listening for a vacuum cleaner sound on the passenger side of the motor on start up. It should run for a couple of minutes then stop. It is good news if it is working because that indicates the pump is not faulty. Next find someone who knows how to do a smoke test and have them smoke test the motor where the SAP hoses and diaphragms are. There is one hose and diaphragm under the driver's side intake manifold (that is where my problem was, a hose had become disconnected from the diaphragm) and another bellows shaped hose that connects to the vacuum tank that gets brittle and cracks. the vacuum tank can also become brittle and crack so check to see that it is holding a vacuum. The diaphragms can malfunction so if no vacuum leak is detected from the smoke test then they will have to be tested for activation. Let us know what you find.

[Maj75]

Well I guess I should preface this reply with the fact that I live in Florida and there are no inspections.

I respect those who want "clean air" but considering the quality of our air and the fact that the ROW is as interested in clean air as anyone else, I doub't that anyone but the EPA could quantify the additional pollutants released with and without the SAI system. The ROW does not have the pre-cat cats or the SAI. Probably installed by Porsche because of Kalifornia's emissions requirements...

Please note that I am not removing the system or the cats (yet ) but only changing the settings on the DME to turn off the SAI CEL/codes. I will probably install headers with-out the pre-cat cats, but that is not part of the discussion.

For those with state inspections, I doubt that most could catch the difference once the cats are up to temp, and probably even if the cats were cold. The CEL light won't be lit and no codes are stored. We used to have just the tail-pipe probe testing and a visual (by a blind guy). No way this car would fail the tailpipe sniffer without the pre-cats. I had a turbo Supra that had factory pre-cats on the stock exhaust manifold. Guys routinely replaced the factory exhaust manifold and left the primary cat without any emissions testing problems or other difficulty. Hard to even see on visual because the pre-cats were so hidden.

[ronster]

Originally Posted by Maj75

Well I guess I should preface this reply with the fact that I live in Florida and there are no inspections.

I respect those who want "clean air" but considering the quality of our air and the fact that the ROW is as interested in clean air as anyone else, I doub't that anyone but the EPA could quantify the additional pollutants released with and without the SAI system. The ROW does not have the pre-cat cats or the SAI. Probably installed by Porsche because of Kalifornia's emissions requirements...

Please note that I am not removing the system or the cats (yet ) but only changing the settings on the DME to turn off the SAI CEL/codes. I will probably install headers with-out the pre-cat cats, but that is not part of the discussion.

For those with state inspections, I doubt that most could catch the difference once the cats are up to temp, and probably even if the cats were cold. The CEL light won't be lit and no codes are stored. We used to have just the tail-pipe probe testing and a visual (by a blind guy). No way this car would fail the tailpipe sniffer without the pre-cats. I had a turbo Supra that had factory pre-cats on the stock exhaust manifold. Guys routinely replaced the factory exhaust manifold and left the primary cat without any emissions testing problems or other difficulty. Hard to even see on visual because the pre-cats were so hidden.

NY930 (New York?) may have a different situation regarding air quality. Surprised to hear Flarida has such crappy air, the California pollution control regulations have cleaned out air up to an excellent quality. Growing up I remember the brown haze that used to hang over every major city and bronchial problems were rampant in school age children. You might look into contacting Pedro Bonilla (Pedro's) he has a business there in Flarida and has a program for the ECU to do away with the SAS and has removed his system entirely, losing some weight in the process.

[mikefocke]

Been there...had those codes...wrote this

checkenginelightcausedbymassairflowsensor - mikefocke2

and mine wasn't the MAF but it could have been. The flow chart and system diagrams will give you an idea of the complexity of the systems involved and the diagnostic steps.

[NY930]

Wow, you guys really know your stuff. If knowledge is wealth, then you all seem quite well off.
Thanks so much for all your valuable input and advice.
I had the codes cleared so we will see if they reappear in the morning.
The battery terminals were loose and the battery may need to be replaced. I'll be charging up tonight. I just took delivery from Florida and the battery may have discharged in route.
Can a dead battery trigger a mis code?

[ronster]

Originally Posted by NY930

Wow, you guys really know your stuff. If knowledge is wealth, then you all seem quite well off.
Thanks so much for all your valuable input and advice.
I had the codes cleared so we will see if they reappear in the morning.
The battery terminals were loose and the battery may need to be replaced. I'll be charging up tonight. I just took delivery from Florida and the battery may have discharged in route.
Can a dead battery trigger a mis code?

I wouldn't think it would be a battery issue but low batteries do play hell with Porsche electronics. I wouldn't expect the codes to reappear right away as the ECM is designed to cycle through X number of cycles for each code before they reappear and it is based on running time. I would recommend you get a manual and a Bentley's manual for your car and read up on how the ECM system works it will help you through this process. Keep in mind that codes typically point to a system and not a specific part and Porsche has a diagnostic tree to follow for each code to track down and identify what is specifically wrong. Some Porsche mechanics, even at dealerships, will shotgun replace entire systems, at great expense to you, instead of follow the diagnostic tree. It is one reason a lot of Boxster owners become DIYers or find a good mechanic they develop a relationship with who won't shotgun. When I had my SAS problems I had mechanics tell me I needed to replace the entire system, I had mechanics tell me it was the O2 sensors and cats that needed to be replaced, I had almost everyone tell me it was a bad MAF. As it was I spent almost $700 before I found a mechanic who took off the intake manifold and found a twenty five cent hose that had pulled off a diaphragm. He hooked it back up and bingo-problem solved, I've still got the original MAF, O2 sensors, cats and SAS with no codes and my Boxster just passed California smog with readouts much lower than what is allowed.

[Maj75]

Originally Posted by ronster

NY930 (New York?) may have a different situation regarding air quality. Surprised to hear Flarida has such crappy air, the California pollution control regulations have cleaned out air up to an excellent quality. Growing up I remember the brown haze that used to hang over every major city and bronchial problems were rampant in school age children. You might look into contacting Pedro Bonilla (Pedro's) he has a business there in Flarida and has a program for the ECU to do away with the SAS and has removed his system entirely, losing some weight in the process.

Contacted Pedro and he says that he can turn off the SAI monitoring in the DCM/ECU. I am going by today and will advise how this works

[Maj75]

Got my ROW tune yesterday and the CEL is gone and no more P0410 or P1411 After the DME re-learned the right settings, the engine runs better than ever! Should pick-up a few HP as the euro 3.2 had a few more HP than the US version.

The next time I have the opportunity to open up the engine cover, I will be pulling the SAI pump, plugging the hose and losing about 5 lbs at the same time!

[NY930]

I reset the codes and then they were gone. Before the codes could come back, when the car was still warm, I took it to a New York State Emissions Testing Station.
I keep the car running and they took me right away.
They pluged me in to their system and I passed.
I got my inspection sticker but the check engine light came back on in a few days.

[ronster]

Originally Posted by NY930

I reset the codes and then they were gone. Before the codes could come back, when the car was still warm, I took it to a New York State Emissions Testing Station.
I keep the car running and they took me right away.
They pluged me in to their system and I passed.
I got my inspection sticker but the check engine light came back on in a few days.

Hey you got the hard part done now you can have some time to do a visual and/or smoke test on your system if you don't go with Pedro's ROW remap. I've got to talk to him about how it affects emissions testing in California which is some of the strictest in the nation.

[paulv]

Originally Posted by ronster

Hey you got the hard part done now you can have some time to do a visual and/or smoke test on your system if you don't go with Pedro's ROW remap. I've got to talk to him about how it affects emissions testing in California which is some of the strictest in the nation.

It will be interesting to see what he says. I once saw a chart in some DME troubleshooting docs which show that there are three different catalytic converters (part numbers) depending if the car is OBD2, RoW, or Germany.

Regards,
paul...

[sdtech968]

If you don't have SMOG compliance in your state, then you don't need to repair the SAI. It has no bearing on engine performance whatsoever, only emission compliance. That being said, go get it fixed or do everyone a favor, and give the car to someone who will take care of it.