engine in car IMSreplacement???

[wikan]

tiptronic out of car. 2003 2.7 base boxster.

reading on IMS replacements- some say engine must be out of car because of tiptronic...others articles don't say anything at all!
what gives? is there something inherently different about a tiptronic engine that would make IMS more problematic than a manual car???

One article said because of the tiptronic, the engine and tranny had to be pulled together!! ( and the Bentley manual and I've already proven that one wrong!!)

Also, local Porsche specialist says that since I've got 175K on the clock, if I pull the IMS , odds are won't find anything wrong with it!!!!!!

Can this be done engine in car?????
Some light for this very dark tunnel, please!!!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by wikan

tiptronic out of car. 2003 2.7 base boxster.

reading on IMS replacements- some say engine must be out of car because of tiptronic...others articles don't say anything at all!
what gives? is there something inherently different about a tiptronic engine that would make IMS more problematic than a manual car???

One article said because of the tiptronic, the engine and tranny had to be pulled together!! ( and the Bentley manual and I've already proven that one wrong!!)

Also, local Porsche specialist says that since I've got 175K on the clock, if I pull the IMS , odds are won't find anything wrong with it!!!!!!

Can this be done engine in car?????
Some light for this very dark tunnel, please!!!

The reason most people pull the engine and Tip out and then separate them is that it saves time. You can pull the Tip out and leave the engine in the car, but it takes considerably more effort, which is why shops doing IMS often quote a higher price for doing a car with a Tip.

[wikan]

JFP
I agree taking out the tip leaving engine in place wasn't the most fun I've ever had, but it really wasn't all that awful. The Bentley manual says to pull the engine, begin by removing the transmission! So I decided to let sleeping dogs lie and not move any more things than I had to..

But, can I do the IMS with engine still in car?

Also, ( and I know I'm trading on your kind and generous nature, here :-) ) some of the procedures I've researched display chain locks bolted into the holes filled with the green plugs, and then removing tension on the chains, and the pelican parts article doesn't seem to mention these locks at all....is there some special tools/locks needed to keep position on those chains while also removing the IMS, which occurs to me would create plenty of slack during the time it takes to remove and install the new IMS?

[wikan]

I read more on the endless stream of posts on IMS replacements....so forgive the stupidity of my last question on cam locks...
Next question is- best place to buy cam locks from!! ???

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by wikan

JFP
I agree taking out the tip leaving engine in place wasn't the most fun I've ever had, but it really wasn't all that awful. The Bentley manual says to pull the engine, begin by removing the transmission! So I decided to let sleeping dogs lie and not move any more things than I had to..

But, can I do the IMS with engine still in car?

Also, ( and I know I'm trading on your kind and generous nature, here :-) ) some of the procedures I've researched display chain locks bolted into the holes filled with the green plugs, and then removing tension on the chains, and the pelican parts article doesn't seem to mention these locks at all....is there some special tools/locks needed to keep position on those chains while also removing the IMS, which occurs to me would create plenty of slack during the time it takes to remove and install the new IMS?

There is a reason they are not mentioned in their article: They were trying to come up with a cheap alternative method to go along with they OEM style bearing replacement, both of which are incredibly bad ideas.

Their bearing is nothing more than exactly what is in the car (for a single row car) and a really bad idea (using a single row in place of a dual row) on dual row engines. So if you used their bearing, you would be replacing a single row, the weakest design, with another one with the very same potential to die and take your engine with it. On a dual row car, you would be replacing the strongest OEM design with the weakest one, in order to save a few bucks. Makes no sense.

The "set screw procedure" has also proven to be a disaster as well. Because they don't tell you to lock the engine at TDC and install the cam locks before pulling the flange cover (again to save on the cost), many of the DIY installs have gone horribly wrong. We have seen several flat bedded into the shop. So anyone that asks, I tell them to (1) forget the Pelican bearing and get a LN replacement, and (2) forget their procedures and get a online copy of the LN instructions and follow them to the letter.

As for the tooling, get it from LN, or from someone that has completed their install and wants to sell on their tool kit. And as I mentioned above, yes, you can leave the engine in the car and only remove the Tip.

[wikan]

what you say makes perfect sense.
as novice as I am- somehow all the dots didn't connect!!
is there a place in the forum where someone might list the Ln tools for sale??The LN website seems to be a bit resistant to selling to car owners versus shop owners...

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by wikan

what you say makes perfect sense.
as novice as I am- somehow all the dots didn't connect!!
is there a place in the forum where someone might list the Ln tools for sale??The LN website seems to be a bit resistant to selling to car owners versus shop owners...

LN will sell to anyone with a valid credit card. As for used tools, you need to search.

[chamilun]

for the millionth time, stop badmouthing pelican products and materials on pelicans freaking forum.

ridiculous

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by chamilun

for the millionth time, stop badmouthing pelican products and materials on pelicans freaking forum.

ridiculous

I call them as I see them. Bad ideas are simply that, regardless of where they come from.

[Zack at Pelican Parts]

We have the full IMS replacement covered in our DIY article, right here.

Transmission and clutch, of course, need to be removed, but the engine can stay in place. Detailed photos can be found at the bottom of the article.

[chamilun]

from the article

but the Pelican kit incorporates a stronger seal on the outside of the bearing

lots of errors thrown around on every forum about what the pelican kit is. It appears it is not just a factory duplicate.

thanks to Pelican for publishing info that many many many people have benefited from

[Scnell Gelb]

Zack,
This subject has come up many times before - even on this Forum recently. We have gently nudged Pelican to reconsider their Instructions because there have been disasters covered here ,caused by following them. We aren't being nasty.We're trying to help you correct a serious error in the Instructions. The offending statement in the Instructions is:
"With the plugs removed, now remove the three bolts that hold on the intermediate shaft bearing cover". NO !!!! If you do this without previously locking the cams, the spring pressure of the valves can turn the cams slightly, change the tension on the chains,pull the IMSB out of center and all sorts of needless complications and difficulties.
The omission is easily rectified by using the cam lock tools that Pelican sell. So we are puzzled as to why the essential precaution has not been added to the Instructions. I hint that a careful review by Pelican of the helpful comments JFP has made(so many times!) would be very useful in promoting your sales of your IMSB products.
Just a gentle hint .

[chamilun]

hey Scnell,
As you demonstrate, there are betters to say that the instructions could be tweeked, or the bearing has inherent limitations, than the way the above poster presented this, no matter if true
or not. It would *seem* that Wayne/etc may disagree with the assertions you make, but perhaps
they would like to post and clarify the issue.

All I know is I own 2 of their books, and they have been highly invaluable to me. There are multiple instances where my car was slightly different, and itd be nice to see revisions made as
far as certain changes with model updates, but the instructions for what I've used have been
at least helpful due to the quality photos and explanations.

wasnt trying to start a war. Just show some respect for the site owners

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by chamilun

hey Scnell,
As you demonstrate, there are betters to say that the instructions could be tweeked, or the bearing has inherent limitations, than the way the above poster presented this, no matter if true
or not. It would *seem* that Wayne/etc may disagree with the assertions you make, but perhaps
they would like to post and clarify the issue.

All I know is I own 2 of their books, and they have been highly invaluable to me. There are multiple instances where my car was slightly different, and itd be nice to see revisions made as
far as certain changes with model updates, but the instructions for what I've used have been
at least helpful due to the quality photos and explanations.

wasnt trying to start a war. Just show some respect for the site owners

Just to put your concerns to bed, at the behest of another long time poster and well known Porsche technical data website owner, I am currently in direct communication with Wayne about reoccurring problems the instructions published for the bearing in order to help future users not run into the same brick wall that previous users have encountered. As we have had to bail out refits gone wrong, both on multiple websites, as well as in the shop, we have seen the exact same problems crop up too often to be a coincidence.

As for the bearing kit they sell, as I know who the source it from, and have spoken with the supplier about the kit, I know exactly which bearing it is, and the reasons why the kit was developed; it was to be a low cost alternative to the ceramic hybrids that LN and Jake developed. While the Pelican bearing may have some improvements in the seal materials, it is in all other dimensions the same as the factory single row bearings. And if you have read at length the data published in the IMS lawsuit, from Porsche's own data, the single row bearing is the weakest design, with at least an eight times greater probability of failure as the factory steel dual row design it replaced. On that basis, replacing the factory steel single row with a duplicate still leaves the car owner with same odds of failure as the bearing they removed, and installing the single row replacement with a spacer in place of the factory dual row bearing actually significantly increases the statistical probability of a future failure.

To Pelican's credit, I have never seen their bearing kit promoted as an "improved" bearing, but just as a low cost alternative replacement. And as Porsche did not offer the OEM bearing as parts item (factory replacements were originally only available as an assembled IMS shaft, and then later as the oversized bearing only, again as an assembled shaft; both at a cost of over $1,000 per shaft), it offered an alternative pathway to those considering replacing the bearing only at a lower price point.

[chamilun]

would be awesome to see this get some clarifications for the IMS install. As a long time reader
of various sites, it would seem the correct method has been described and detailed, just need
it to be centralized to where the average Joe is able to find it and not mess anything up by finding incorrect guidance

IMO, these forums exist to help each other DIY stuff when possible. People wanting to do this themselves end up giving business to multiple vendors. Jakes method with certified installers etc
is more about correcting a bad design, but for guys who dont want to drop the dough, would be
great to have a correct install method (and the tools for sale to complete said installation)

[Wayne 962]

There's a bit of misinformation here on this thread. I'll try to correct / realign the information.

- First off, even after all of these years, no one definitively knows what causes the IMS bearing to fail. Moving from the double-row bearing to the single-row bearing (with the later chain update) did not cause the problem to go away or disappear. There is no evidence to suggest that a larger bearing in this application is more reliable than a smaller one. They both fail. Charles at LN Engineering has the exact specifications on the failures, but off the top of my head, if I remember correctly when I wrote the book / article five-years ago, there's was no distinct advantage of the double-row over the single-row in terms of protecting against a failure. If I remember correctly, the notes in the Porsche lawsuit was hyperbole listed in the plantiff's brief - their interpretation of the data. In reality, the single and double row both exhibit failures.

- The bearing fails. Sometimes just after only 30,000 miles. This is a deficiency in the design of the original engine. Frequent oil changes seem to mitigate this problem, but it's still there and always will be. Even the improved ceramic bearing from LN Engineering (which is a single-row bearing) has seen some failures, so nothing is bulletproof, and nothing is a guarantee. That is why I recommend replacing the bearing when you perform a clutch job (every 30,000 miles or so). That replacement schedule combined with the addition of frequent oil changes should reduce the chance of failure to near zero. I believe that LN Engineering has also adopted these guidelines as well now and also recommend replacement of their bearing kit after 30,000 miles.

- The Pelican kit was developed to be as close of a replacement to the original Porsche bearing, with a clever design as to improve upon the leaky bolt, and as to not facilitate the use of a custom cover like the LN design does. The LN design is a well-thought out, heavily-engineered solution. But it still doesn't fix the problem in its entirety and there are still some failures of the improved ceramic bearing. To date, there have been no reports of any failures of bearings in our kit reported back to me. On our test mule for the prototype kit, we had Callas Rennsport run the car for eight months and 30,000 miles as Tom Prine's daily commuter car. At the end of that period, there were no issues with the car or the bearing. Frequent oil changes were a part of that as well.

- The 101 Projects book and technical article was published roughly five years ago. We've sold tens of thousands of copies, and the article on the website explaining the procedure gets about 2000 views a day, if I remember correctly. I've gotten many emails from people over the years, but I can't recall one where the person destroyed an engine? I've had a few people get confused, and they didn't follow the directions exactly and then had to re-time their cams. But I've also received lots of emails from people thanking me for the instructions and saying that they performed the upgrade without a hitch following the use of the set screws. I guess it could depend entirely upon one's ability to carefully follow directions and how skilled they are with working on their car. I've screwed up some relatively simple stuff at times in the past while working on my car, so I do know that if you're not 100% focused on something, then things could go astray. I do emphasize that you should check the cam timing after the procedure (by pulling the green plugs). Not doing this would be foolish.

- When I wrote the book and the tech article, the cam tools were available only from Porsche, and they cost something like $400 for the pair. People are now reproducing these cam tools in the aftermarket so it's quite a bit more economical to purchase them. I think we even looked at reproducing them at one point in hard plastic (since the cam timing is not variable, they don't need to be so rigid as to be made in metal), but I think we skipped that idea because the cost of the metal ones aren't so bad. I can update my article with this additional information, I don't have any issues with that.

-Wayne

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by chamilun

would be awesome to see this get some clarifications for the IMS install. As a long time reader
of various sites, it would seem the correct method has been described and detailed, just need
it to be centralized to where the average Joe is able to find it and not mess anything up by finding incorrect guidance

IMO, these forums exist to help each other DIY stuff when possible. People wanting to do this themselves end up giving business to multiple vendors. Jakes method with certified installers etc
is more about correcting a bad design, but for guys who dont want to drop the dough, would be
great to have a correct install method (and the tools for sale to complete said installation)

To be fair to everyone, when you encounter an install gone wrong, you have absolutely no idea what basis they are coming from, or what set of instructions they are using. Jake would be the first one to tell you that even though they developed tooling and methodology to make what Porsche said was impossible possible, nature will always side with the hidden flaw, which in this case is most often the installer. Everyone from backyard mechanics to Porsche dealerships have totally blown IMS retrofit's using the LN/Raby instruction sets, not because the instructions are wrong or unclear, but because the user either did not read them completely, or thought he or she knew better and could take a short cut. Fecal matter occurs naturally, but some seem go out of their way to invite it in............

[Wayne 962]

I just added the following to the article for the IMS Bearing Replacement. Hopefully this will help reduce confusion.

-Wayne

[March 2015 Update]

Since this article was originally published in 2010, there have been some useful updates to the IMS Bearing Removal and Installation Kit that facilitate an easier and safter installation of the bearing. When I originally wrote this article, the only method available to lock the camshafts was to use the original Porsche factory tools, which costs several hundred dollars at the time. Since then, the camshaft locking tools have been added to the bearing extractor / installation kit. The use of these tools reduces the need for the "set screw method". To use the tools and lock the camshafts, begin by simply setting the engine to Top Dead Center (Figure 132). Then remove the camshaft end covers on both sides (Figure 133). Install the camshaft locking tools (factory tool is shown in Figure 137, the aftermarket tool varies slightly in appearance). With the engine crankshaft locked at TDC, and the camshafts locked with respect to the crankshaft, this should reduce the chance of disturbing the engine timing almost down to zero. NOTE: the IMS shaft will still tend to move off-center when you remove the bearing cover due to the pull of the chains/tensioners, so if you can install one or more of the set screws to hold it in place, it would still be a wise idea.

[chamilun]

Wow Wayne, thanks for the post!

Again, I see this as a community for DIY, not a place for professionals to hold court over procedures
that may or may not be over the head of the average home car enthusiast. Am someone who has made the idiotic mistake of using the torque gun to break off bolts on valley pans and many many many other stupid things (although this is unfortunately probably part of 'learning' on the fly), I can attest to making mistakes, sometimes even on simple things. But I wouldnt have been able to own several porsches, or many many BMWs if it wasnt for places like this

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by chamilun

...Am someone who has made the idiotic mistake of using the torque gun to break off bolts on valley pans and many many many other stupid things

Oh, trust me, I have a lot of stories like that as well!

-Wayne