No more freebies or bending over backwards....that's it......
 

I have always tried to be helpful, in particular in the field of my occupation...landscaping, irrigation, and low voltage lighting.

Anyone in the trades fully understands that over the years you end up in a gazillion situations where you can help others out - beyond regular business practices.

After going the extra mile plus a whole bunch of my time spent that I will never get back and in return getting a whole range of results most of which translates to zip......I'm pretty much done.

My 3 new mottos are:

1. I take care of those who take care of me.
2. Fool me once shame on you....fool me twice, shame on me.
3. No good deed goes unpunished.

I feel so strongly about this maybe I should just get those tattooed across my chest or something......:rolleyes:

I turned 64 this month and have been shrinking the hamster wheel in preparation for semi-retirement, so this new mantra falls squarely right into that old wheelhouse.

I'm not saying I'll be a real jerk or anything but for however many more years I have left I'm going to take care of my casa - and my mind, body, and spirit FIRST for a change!

This is long overdue!

/rant

Good for you but I need some help with my yard first.

Now get off of my lawn! ;)

Some people are like sponges. They will soak up all you will give them and not give anything back unless you really wring them out.

I seem to have less patience for users the older I get too.

Well said Baz.........Take care of #1, because no one else will.........

Years ago, I didn't charge friends to work on their motorcycles.....Soon, I had friends I didn't even know.........

These days, it's the same thing with company showing up.......Never ending revolving door.....I call it the "Free Resort".

You're absolutely right!

Unfortunately your item #1 is the chicken and the egg.

If you give of yourself with an expectation of return, then you're not actually giving.

But I agree it gets much more annoying after the first few thousand times it doesn't pan out.

Yes. You're right. I learned that a long time ago. I have a small circle of friends that help each other and look out for each others' backs. Like Gogar says, when I give something anymore, I don't expect anything in return. My neighbor across the road hasn't learned yet. He did some tractor & backhoe work for the people above him & charged them next to nothing. He's still waiting for that little amount of payment a month later. There are a lot of takers in the world who feel no compunction to give anything back.

Thanks guys.....obviously I'm a little fired up right now. It's been a long time coming and guess today I finally reached the tipping point.

And it's really not about the money in most cases.....sometimes a simple thank you would be nice or maybe a thank you note with a $5 bill "to cover your gas" or "buy yourself a beer, mate!" note.

I get crickets.

Enough is enough....sheesh......

Hey Baz, people like you and I get into this service business because we are excellence at what we do, and enjoy it. Way I see it, part of the business is helping people. That make us unique and people beat our doors down for help or do business with us. Since helping is just part of the deal, I never expect anything in return. Most appreciate it, some do not and think its our duty to spend time and money on them, all for free. I try and weed out those on the first meeting and don't even bother with them if I sense any difficult in working with them. Then, there's the occasional land mines you step onto and bam, it ruins your day. They appear to be super easy and nice to work with, then they turn into a pita. Get over this one, stay positive. There are lots of good people out there.

I know there are lot of bitter old trades people out there. Lots, and I know why. They have had enough siht from everyone. Don't be that guy.

Yeah, Baz, I'm with you. Jeff ^^^^ has it nailed pretty good. There are bad weeks to be sure but we all keep coming back 'cause that's what we do.

The only contractors that don't have this problem are cold hearted business people. Some actually turn out decent work. But they are far from being in love with their work. The love only the money.

This is why I had no problem giving the plumber that lives across the street an extra bit more when he came over and fixed our toilet the other day. No way I could have lifted it off the base with my back such as it is. Well I could have gotten it off and back on, but I'd be paying for doing that today for sure. He didn't want the extra, but I told him I appreciated that he was 'local' and available without an appointment as that counts in my book. He's the type that is looking out for the retired folks and not soaking them for all their worth.

In my experience it must be roughly 1 in 1000 that will ever pay back a favor.

But maybe that 1 makes it worth it....

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who classify people into types, and those who don't.
I'm of the former kind.
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Givers and takers.
I tend to be a giver and I've reached the point where Baz is.
The issue that I've encountered is that I have to put a conscious throttle on my natural tendency to assist and give to others.
If I don't stay conscious and they demonstrate themselves to be takers, I'm victimizing myself. It's not them, it's me.
So what I've learned is to just give a little bit at first to see if they're a taker, if they're not, then I'm good.
And they're good.
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I wish I knew how to find good tradesmen. To be honest, all I want from a tradesman is to show up on time, do a good job for a reasonable price and finish the job. In fact, I am willing to pay a premium if they do not try to cheat me. I simply cannot find them where I live. I would love to hire folks to work for me and I pay cash on the spot when the work is done. Most never show up for the appointment and I waste a day waiting around for them. My time is money too. Then they show up and see a nice house and some nice cars...and start adding zeros to the price. The last one showed up to price install of a generator (I priced the system at under $15K) and I already had the propane tank and lines run. The estimate was $65K. I rejected it as insane...then it was reduced to $45K. I opted to simply not install one. The next guy I wanted to paint my chimney with sealant. I had already purchased the materials. Bid was over $10K (he included a chimney cap which I didn't really need). I have all sorts of jobs that need done...and all simply have to wait until I can get to them myself. It is even worse for rental homes in other cities where they know they have you over a barrel. The charge is always twice as much as it should be. I get an bill twice a year for $125 from one that my property manager hires to replace the furnace air filter. I had another bid on replacing the $50 reverse osmosis tank under the kitchen sink. I did it once before myself...took about 10 min. The bid was $800. I told the property manager that I cold fly out and do the job cheaper (including air fare and hotel). I just can't afford most tradesmen who want to make a weeks pay on their half day working for me.

^^^
There's a ton of alcoholism and garden variety dysfunction in the service industry.
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I was in the service industry for 34 years. I never advertised anywhere...not even on my crew trucks.
I was constantly turning down work.
My company was sought out by Sunset Magazine to submit a bid on a spec home they were building.
I asked how they got my contact info..."Word of mouth. You have a reputation."
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Born and raised in the Midwest...strong and moral work ethic.
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I held one contract for 15 years. Unheard of in my field. Terminated when I retired.

Like I said, there are plenty of good people out there and I have to believe that. After sometime, you learn to read people pretty well and can tell if they are genuine and do care about the type of work they do. I have done and given so much for many of my clients that they have pay me back many times over by recommend us to their friends and families. 90% of our new clients are recommended by old ones in the past ten years. My experience is that I been paid back by ten folds. Their words is worth a thousands bucks.

About en years ago, that morning, I was on my way out to a cruise to Alaska. Phone rang, an old client called and discovered her water heater quit working after 7 years ( we did a complete remodel and added on to her mid century home). Instead of asking questions, I begged my plumber to save my ass and install a new one that day. By that afternoon, all was well. Everyone was happy except my check book. It was 900 bucks lighter. I get a call weeks later asking for a bill on the heater. I said, nope, enjoy the hot showers. Since then I have done 7 more similar size projects for their friends and family. We just finished one three months ago. People know and appreciate the extra things we do for them. Once that don't, oh well. What makes it nice is that they thank my workmen and sometimes buy them lunch. Very nice gesture on their part.

Don, Were you a builder? I think I must ask you this before?

There are lots of screw ups in the trades. They do it because they have to not because they want to. An old timer ask what they hell am I doing here doing clean up in the job site installing base and case. I was just out of college so everyone older then 40 is and old timer. He knew I had a college degree and kept trying to talk me out of this sihtty job. This was a guy that would cut up a new piece of 2x6 (doesn't matter how long) for a blocking and toss the rest in the trash. Open a new box of screw and tip the box over and use only three screws and kick the rest down into the dirt. These guys edges are just a little rough, so their personality show through and after being around them for sometime, they can be read like a book.

Patience, and compassion seem to be just words in the dictionary these days. I just spent a week at an Air BnB cabin in the mountains with my elderly inlaws...i'm surprised that my patience didn't crack, most people wouldn't have bothered. my BIL was there also, and displayed many of the characteristics you just mentioned, never helping out, and being selfish, with his time, and efforts.

Baz, I have the flu so this is may be curt and not well formed.

Do and help and sacrifice for others because because that alone feels good in your heart and is the right thing to do. Never expect ROI on good deeds and you'll never be disappointed.

Helping others unconditionally may not give you any or immediate ROI. But your action may click the next day, week, week on the person you helped and they in turn help someone.

Helping someone unconditionally is the return on investment itself.

No one can take that away from you.

I think I know what you mean. I have a whole bunch of semi friends that only ever get in touch when they want a prescription and expect it to be a freebee.

I will help anyone in true need - I volunteer locally a lot.

It is those that try and take advantage of me that become irritating.

I have a lot of equipment I do not mind lending for local efforts. A few months ago a guy I know pretty well asked to borrow my dump trailer. I thought it was personal use.

Nope.

He priced a job and needed my trailer to move 9 tons of 3/4 river rock. I found out afterward and was pissed.

i vote you dont overthink it.

go with your gut instead of some hard set of rules. rely on the instinct that living on this planet for 62 years has gotten you.

i try to be helpful for the most part. i dont know why..i am not that nice. i dont generally "love" people. it's weird. some folks just need help..

case by case basis.

for example. i hate wednesdays. :)

why? it's garbage take out day. i go thru my home, empty all the cans and drag my bins out to the curb. triple clean the litter box. it doenst end there. i go up the block and pull out the elderly folks cans. 3 homes. (1 passed away and fell off the list). one lady asked..my neighbor. no problem. she talked. other old ladies asked.

i dont LOVE doing it, but it is no skin off my back. it's easy. i'm actually stressed about my upcoming vacation..who will do it? and that annoys the eff out of me..it really isnt my problem. but i wear that stress.

Yup, that's why I don't have friends.
That and because I'm a DH!!

Those people will never get that.

We have "friends" and the wife just invited herself to stay at our house, have my wife pick her up from the airport and drive her back the next morning, and tried to get my wife to go out of the way to get something to take back to her family. All of this so she could save a buck on her trip.

A couple of days before this transpired the husband sends a group text and tells us to 'take care of my frau'. NO thank you, kiss my a s s, or anything. No bottle of wine. NO gas money. NOthing. Just takers.

I'm finished with them.

I've also seen this from the other side. The wife's uncle is an attorney. For years and years whenever he would do work for the family trust, family members, etc, he would send a bill. I sat by and watched my in-laws and others get extremely worked up...how dare he send a bill, even one with a discount.

Guy has to eat too but they don't see it that way. He can also count it as a business loss if they don't pay but that is beyond them as well.

Just because you have a license, skill, or whatever, does not make you the family guy, friend, or neighbor for that thing, especially for free.

I understand and agree with not wanting to be taken advantage of. Selfish people suck and it seems like the whole world has taken the "hooray for me and to H3ll with everyone else" attitude. We even see it in some of the threads here.

I would suggest you take the wisdom you have gotten from the bad deals and make an adjustment rather than nuke being kind and giving. Start with #2 and you will have solved 90% of your concern. Make a mental list of the takers and be just a little more discerning when a new person shows up. This way you can hold your head up that you took the high road and kept the class average higher.

Don't let a root of bitterness take hold of your life. You'll end up just being angry at everything and everyone. Remember that being bitter is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick.

I struggle with this sometimes too. Some folks drop off a car and I work on it, they pick it up and leave me payment. Other folks want to help/watch/talk and then pack up and leave. Friends? Sometimes I'm not sure. I've been helped a lot over the years and think I should pay that back when I can. Sometimes though.... Some booze, a thank you or some acknowledgement of me helping makes my day. Sometimes I feel used.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...leys/pint1.gif

In our business most clients have a specific project and we accommodate whatever they need us to do and we bill them appropriately. Some of the clients then keep asking for just a little more of our time to tweak the data again or in a different projection or coordinate system. It is just computer time at that point so no big deal in their mind. Good clients get that service from us happily. The one that take 60 to 90 days to pay, well they get billed for everything.

We don't do freebies. We explain to all the clients, we don't do this as a hobby or for fun, we do it to make money.

LMAO!!

I was wondering what you were on about in the AC thread.

I missed this.

Welcome to the club brother. When you have a marketable trade everyone wants a hookup from you, and when you need one back. Bend over.

I am too nice, the guy in my AC story, hooked him up multiple times, no bill for his personal home, when he needed me to create a plot plan for his addition, when he added a new driveway etc...

When his sister, a single mom purchased a house, I hooked her up for free, and even updated it years later for free when she refinanced.

When his dad needing one, hooked up.

When I needed some AC work he ripped me off and did a half ass job installing which caused my house to flood and recently the compressor, which was not secured correctly vibrated itself apart.

What little he may have reduced in his charges is gone in repair costs.

Same goes for family, they want me to work for them for free and in a rush, I need something in return (one relative is an electrician) and they are too busy to help.

My new rule, I use contractors I do not know but seem honest. This was if something goes south, I do not feel guilty hammering them.

I do not do free work or discount work for anybody, I am now "too busy" to help.

If you want me to work for you at full price I will be happy to help you, I am not in business anymore to give my work away to friends and family I never hear from unless they want something.

I have exceptions, there are a select few people I will still help and that list is VERY VERY small.

I always bent over forwards. It made it easier for them. :D

I do get your point, but when I do someone a solid and they appreciate it, it lessens the pain of being taken advantage of now and then.

Ive learned this lesson in a spectacular fashion in the last few years:

1) No more Mr. nice guy!
I no longer accept dishonesty/abuse/taken advantage of/ and those are often presented as something else in disguised, so nor am any longer nearly as willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Ive never been a pushover, yet I realize that I've squandered my good nature. I left it all over the landscape for other people to trample. I now realize that I have a special gift of good nature and compassion. I have to protect that so that it doesn’t get taken advantage of.

I heard this the other day:
"Maybe a man is better man when he is a dangerous man who is being good, than he would be if he was just a good man who wasn’t capable of being dangerous."

Lots to ponder going forward...but don't cross me.

I have many stories of giving and receiving nothing in the form of gratitude.
I'm one who, if you do something for me, I'm going to either do something for you in return or I'll gift you as close to in-kind as possible.
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An excellent example - someone else - a huge disappointment:
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So I'm on the phone (our second chat) with an absolute stunner of a woman from Match.com.
She's telling me about a girlfriend of hers who's been mysteriously unavailable lately.
Seems that the stunner had a hip replacement a year past and asked her friend to come live with her and care take her during her recovery.
Shop for her, cook meals, clean house, transport her, etc.
And now the stunner has to have some other procedure done and has requested that her friend participate in the same fashion again.
The stunner is perplexed as to why her friend is not returning her calls, etc.
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I say, "That's a very special friend to extend herself to you like that. A great favor. I'd be forever grateful. Did you do anything for her in return?"
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"Not that I can think of. What do you mean?"
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I say, "Did you send her a thank you card, take her out to dinner, buy her a bottle of Champagne, give her a dinner gift card at a nice restaurant,...anything like that?"
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"Oh, I don't think any of that was necessary."
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I say, "If you treated me that way I'd be unavailable as well."
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She was speechless. I was off the phone with her within minutes.
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A bummer...she was a looker...but totally unconscious.

It is my view, either free, or full price.

No discounts.

Before I got into construction a good friend was doing some remodel work on my home. I asked him what something would cost and once told said "awk... you're screwing me blind!" (jokingly). His reply, "Screw your friends because your enemies won't let you get close enough"

Baz, If you're anything at all like me, you'll say you're done and when someone says "hey man, I could use your help" you'll be in the truck and on your way.
A country song comes to mind that sums it up for me, Find out who your friends are by Tracy Lawrence:
You find out who your friends are
Somebody's gonna drop everything
Run out and crank up their car
Hit the gas get their fast
Never stop to think 'what's in it for me?' or 'it's way too far.'
They just show on up with their big old heart
You find out who you're friends are

Ive found it better to offer my help outside of my trade. Then it does not feel so much like work that I did not get paid for.
I like to small construction things, pulling my nieghbors out of ditches when they are stuck, mow lawns for the widow behind me , snow plow a few driveways here and there. It feels good. I sleep better at night knowing I helped someone out in need .
There are some freaking leeches , I will tell ya though.
If I still have physical abilities left when I retire, I am going to volunteer with habitat for humanity
I have a friend who runs some sort of co op where they do work on homes of mostly elder people, or people who are unable to for free . I would love to do something like this.
I have done so much free car work over the years, I could probably retire if I could collect on it all .
I do have this one guy who is always doing things for me, and I find it hard to keep up. I like to pay my debts back .

There was a time when I didn’t have many friends. Then I bought a pickup and I soon had several friends. Then I bought a trailer for my pickup and I had even more friends. Then I bought a chainsaw and I had so many friends I didn’t have time to keep the truck up or the trailer lights working or the chains sharpened. That really pissed my friends off.

Lot of big boy talk here. I don't believe much of it because I face customers every day and if you're going to be a hard ass, they will find someone else for the next job.

Now listen to this: advertising works wonders if you live in a large enough demographic and spend enough. That's typically around 8 to 10% of your gross sales. Too rich for you? Then you need referrals from clients you've landed from ads or word of mouth. Either one cuts the cost of each lead down considerably.

Enough said. You give a little, take what's fair and be polite, on time and clean. Maybe the undertaker can be firm with his sale$ under the given circumstances, but give someone with enough time to evaluate what's going down and they will usually make the right decision for them.

Try having a bunch of Bobcats around and a truck and trailer to haul them. Friends will come out of the woodwork. "Hey man, can I borrow one of those?"