Pelican Parts Forums - Limo crash, 20 dead

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If there's no skid marks, wouldn't that present a strong possibility of the brakes going out?

I have a vision of the driver with the brake pedal fully to the floor and nothing happening.

That photo is only the back half of that limo - it originally had 8 or 10 doors per side. The front half is gone.

I have long wondered how they can do a stretch that long without dropping the body on a bus chassis.

I rode in a stretch H1 for a bachelor party once. I was surprised that the front axles could still connect and drive. Huge turning radius though.

Read online " someone " spoke to the owner of the business and he stated recent inspection failures were for small/petty issues and were NOT the reason for the crash .......... yeah right :rolleyes: As others have stated the investigation of the crash will flush out multiple reasons for the accident - driver error , poor maintenance , over loaded weight capacity , poorly designed/executed stretching of the chassis , lack of safety standards for conversions , possible excessive speed etc. etc. it won't be one smoking gun reason . Unfortunately that doesn't bring back the dead :( the surviving members of their families must be going through hell . RIP to all that were killed .

https://dmv.ny.gov/brochure/new-york-state-vehicle-safetyemissions-inspection-program

Quote:

SAFETY ITEMS INSPECTED ON CARS AND LIGHT TRUCKS

Seat Belts
Inspect for proper operation and anchorage.

Model years 1969 and newer - one seat belt is required for each seating position
Model years 1967 and 1968 - two front seat belts are required (driver position included), and one seat belt is required for each seating position elsewhere in the vehicle
Model years 1965 and 1966 - two front seat belts are required (driver position included)
Your vehicle's Air Bag Warning Lamp will be checked for proper operation. You will be informed if the vehicle's air bag warning lamp is on or is not working. This is an advisement only and not cause for rejection.

Brakes
At least one front wheel must be removed to inspect the brakes.

Brake pedal reserve - brake pedal must have 1/3 reserve
Brake pedal fade - brake must hold for one minute without fading
Power brake unit - check for proper operation
Brake master cylinder - check for leakage and proper fluid level
Disc brake pads - check condition
Drum brake linings - thickness of linings must be at least 1/16 inch on bonded linings or at least 1/32 inch over rivet head on riveted linings, with no loose or missing rivets or lining
Brake drums and/or rotors - check condition
Wheel cylinders and/or calipers - check for leakage
All brake lines and hoses - check for leaks, cracks, chafing, restrictions, and improper support
Parking brake - check for components and function
Brake equalization - test vehicle for a straight stop without significant wheel pull

Steering, Front End, Suspension, Chassis, Frame and Wheel Fasteners
Front end assembly - check condition

Steering wheel play - check for excessive freeplay
All steering linkages - check for tightness or binding, excessive wear and/or looseness in parts, including idler arm, center control arm, tie-rod ends, drag link ends, steering and pitman arms, gear box, cross shafts, bushings, wheel bearings, steering column or steering wheel shaft mounting
Power steering - check operation, condition of belt, and for leakage
Shock absorbers - check shock mountings and for broken or missing shock absorbers
Springs and torsion bars - check for sagging or broken springs, or a broken, disconnected, missing or bent torsion or stabilizer bar
Chassis/frame - check for breaks, cracks, or severe rust at the suspension attachment points
Wheel fasteners - check for missing or broken parts

Tires (Except spare)
Tread depth - must be at least 2/32 inch when measured in two adjacent major tread grooves showing the most wear
Tire condition - check for any fabric break or cut over the length or width of 1 inch, visible bumps, bulges or knots, and any restricted use designation on the tire
Tire pressure - You will be informed if the vehicle's tire pressure in not within the manufacturer's recommendation. This is an advisement only, and not cause for rejection.

Lights
All lighting must be of an approved type and inspected for operation, proper mounting, and broken or missing lenses. Side marker lamps, parking lamps, and additional flashing turning lamps mounted on the side of the vehicle are not inspected.

Headlamps (low and high beam)
Tail lamps
Stop lamps
Directional signals
Backup lights (1969 and newer)
License plate lights
Hazard warning/four-way flasher (1966 and newer)
Directional signal indicator

Windshield and Other Glass
All windows
Check for approved safety glass or rigid plastic and condition
Check for window tint

Windshield
Check for presence and condition
No crack of 11 inches long or longer is allowed if any part of the crack is within the area cleared by the windshield wiper.

Windshield Wipers and Blades
(Not including rear window or headlamp wipers)

Wipers - check for presence and operation
Blades - check condition

Horn
Check mounting and operation

Mirrors
Check mirror locations for proper mounting, cracks, breaks, and/or discoloration.

Model year 1970 and newer - must have a left outside mirror and an inside mirror, or both left and right outside mirrors
Model year 1968 and newer - must have a left outside mirror
1967 and older - must have one mirror that is either an inside mirror or a left outside mirror
Note: Any vehicle that has a permanent obstruction of the view through the rear window (Example: a truck or van) must have both a left and a right outside mirror.

Fuel Leaks
Any fuel leak that causes dripping or pooling is not acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baz (Post 10210405)

If there's no skid marks, wouldn't that present a strong possibility of the brakes going out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Synergizer (Post 10210429)

I have a vision of the driver with the brake pedal fully to the floor and nothing happening.

Maybe, but I'd think one's natural instinct would be to at least try to make the corner, or at least yank the wheel one way or the other to avoid a head-on situation if the brakes completely went out (not to mention deploying the e-brake).
Even if a head-on were more survivable in certain circumstances, given the design of crumple zones, airbags, restraints, etc., it would seem rather reflexive (human nature) to not want to hit something, especially head-on.

Obviously just speculation at this point, but it will be interesting to see what the driver's tox screen comes back with, as well as the time-stamps on his phone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist (Post 10210205)

I've worked all over the world - North Africa, Middle East, Caribbean. I feel so bad for the workers who have to put up with cracked hard hats, no eye protection, old busted up back hoes and cranes, no fall protection...

We try to insist on these things, but you finally just end up trying to manage the workers to slow down and protect themselves.

I can see them bringing that mentality to a business and maybe paying a fine in lieu of following the law.

I walked past a large construction site in Bangkok last year and saw a large safety banner just like you would see in the US. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they took safety seriously, and then I poked my head into the work site and saw almost no PPE and bamboo scaffolding!

When I worked in Romania, people were working in a machine shop without eye protection. And for some reason, there were grinders EVERYWHERE. You could walk through the main yards without at least 20 people with grinders making sparks. And no eye or ear protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porchdog (Post 10210441)

That photo is only the back half of that limo - it originally had 8 or 10 doors per side..... .

Uh, no... it probably had 2 (maybe 3) doors per side.

Only the front seat area is gone in the pic.... windows do not mean doors.

The vehicle looks mostly intact. I can’t imagine what must have gone on inside that thing that killed 18 people yet didn’t totally obliterate the car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcar (Post 10210714)

Uh, no... it probably had 2 (maybe 3) doors per side.

Only the front seat area is gone in the pic.... windows do not mean doors.

Excursion SUV photo on the company website has 7 door size windows on each side, plus the larger rear window. 4 of those are gone in the accident photo. The website says 20-24 passengers and shows a center aisle between the seats.

I’m guessing it wasn’t the accident that killed them, but the sudden deceleration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen (Post 10210847)

The vehicle looks mostly intact. I can’t imagine what must have gone on inside that thing that killed 18 people yet didn’t totally obliterate the car.

Leaking exhaust and carbon monoxide

My wife grew up there. Pretty horrific for the responders and the village in general.

2001 Ford Excursion that is overloaded by 30% without factoring in the weight increase when it was stretched. It failed it's last vehicle safety and the driver wasn't licenced for that class of vehicle. All those people lost their lives because of stupidity. :(

Good article. I’d have to agree the state may very much have some fault here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen (Post 10210847)

I can’t imagine what must have gone on inside that thing that killed 18 people yet didn’t totally obliterate the car.

No one was belted in (supposedly this is 'the way it's done' with limos) and it was an approximately 60 MPH crash.

I saw an EMT on the news saying some of the people were still alive when they pulled them out.

I'm sure some bled to death internally before they could get them on a table in the ER (or shortly thereafter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by afterburn 549 (Post 10212231)

Probably lost their lives because of salted roads.
I did not read this whole thread-dismiss as required.

In NYS a vehicle brakes system literally ROTS out.
It happened to me ..I hit the brakes and SQUISH........and this is on a BIG one ton dually going dwn a BIG hill.
Here is the thing that pisses me off-
Most the stores here sell LeGAL brakes lines called copper-nickel.
It will not ROT out.
Why are vehicles NOT built with it?
ESP a commercial vehicle.!!
Goverment will never save us.

Not just NYS. When I lived in Pa. we lost brakelines on my Ram going downhill with a loaded horse trailer. Fun times. Stopped the rig with the electric trailer brakes, eventually. I have a buddy there that makes a good living blasting and painting truck underbody and frames.
I believe its due to the liquid anti ice that gets put down now prior to storms. It does help with initial icing but it seems much more corrosive than plain old salt.