Seinfelds Porsche, fake or not

[BeyGon]

I can't imagine him selling a one and a half million dollar fake, knowing it was fake or even if he thought it was fake.

[Crowbob]

Well supposedly Seinfeld did offer to somehow fix the situation (maybe a refund, IIRC) a while back. So far, no refund.

[BeyGon]

I think he did ask them how they decided it was fake since none of his Porsche people saw any evidence of it.

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/jerry-seinfeld-sued-over-sale-of-15-million-1958-porsche-alleged-to-be-fake

[wdfifteen]

I think you should have to do more than just claim it was fake before you sued.

[rwest]

Read the very light on information article and am left wondering what about the car are they calling fake?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by rwest

Read the very light on information article and am left wondering what about the car are they calling fake?

I think that's what Jerry wants to know before he gives back the money and expenses.

[legion]

Yeah, seems suspicious to be. Maybe the buyer regrets the sum he paid?

It sounds like Jerry is happy to refund the money as long as the buyer can prove it is a fake. It sounds like the buyer stopped communication at that point and sued.

Where is the case being heard? That could have more to do with the outcome than the facts of the case...

[pwd72s]

Wishing you were in the world of high end collector cars? Be careful what you wish for.

[Zeke]

"1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedster"

I thought it was one or the other, HP being the difference.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Zeke

"1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedster"

I thought it was one or the other, HP being the difference.

My 356 knowledge is more 65 C based... but IIRC... the GS and GT designations had to do with fuel tank size and materials used on the car for doors, hood, etc (aluminum vs steel). The Carrera engines were all the "same" between the cars, only changing with the Carrera 2 in the 60s when it went to 2l vs the original 1.5l

[porsche4life]

I have a hard time believing that his team, and the team at Amelia island didn’t catch on if this thing is faked. What would be Jerry’s motive to faking its provenance too? Dude is worth a billion dollars, cars have never been about money for him.

Being tried in Manhattan. I’d think this will be a very hard case to win. Jerry is a very respected New Yorker, and they are going to have to prove that he knew it was a fake and actively covered it up.

[SCadaddle]

Jerry could probably defend his case pretty well.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Zeke

"1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedster"

I thought it was one or the other, HP being the difference.

“Carrera” = the 4 cam engine. The GS/GT difference would be the body. GS was racing oriented, didn't have a heater etc. The GT was more comfy, if such a thing could be said about a Speedster. At some point GS had aluminum body panels, but I don't know if this applied to any Speedsters. There were only about 150 or so 4 cam Speedsters built so they lump them together. Practically speaking, from experience, a heater in a Speedster is about as useful as a bilge pump on the Titanic.
I still have a GT heater muffler from a '59 GT coupe I used to own. I'm thinking of selling it to finance my granddaugher's college education.

[Jon B]

Originally Posted by Zeke

"1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedster"
I thought it was one or the other, HP being the difference.

A 356 GS (Gran Sport) was a model with a 4-cam engine, also known as a Carrera.
A 356 GT (Gran Turismo) was a model with factory performance or racing features, such as aluminum panels, larger brakes or uprated engine specs. There were GT versions of both 4-cam Carreras and pushrod engine cars, such as the Super 90 GT model.
The GT or Gran Turismo reference is to the FIA GT racing regulations at the time.

A 356 GS/GT was a 4-cam Carrera with factory performance or racing features.
A luxury Carrera was referred to as a 356 GS de Luxe model.

[Joe Bob]

Seinfeld Accused Of Auctioning Off Bogus '58 Speedster

I'm thinking the "original and correct" wankers are involved. May be the engine was swapped out.

Either way....both sides can suck donkey balls.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

Seinfeld Accused Of Auctioning Off Bogus '58 Speedster

I'm thinking the "original and correct" wankers are involved. May be the engine was swapped out.

The factory makes body/engine/trans numbers available, so the factory Cardex would show which engine and trans was supplied with that body from the factory. Someone could, I suppose, fake a Carrera engine number and hope the real engine never shows up. At those prices he might complain about the body panel numbers not matching or being faked. My car’s hood number does not match the body number. Twenty years ago nobody cared, now it’s prolly costing me $$$$ in value, and easily “fixed.”

[DaveE]

More info from “Automobile”

“Jerry Seinfeld Sued for Selling Allegedly Fake 1958 Porsche 356 Speedster Carrera
The car in question was sold for $1.54 million in 2016.
"They're real and they're spectacular," is a quote made famous on an episode of Seinfeld, the immensely popular 1990s sitcom that of course starred comedian and noted Porsche collector Jerry Seinfeld. Unfortunately, the line may not apply to all of the Porsches that have been through Seinfeld's impressive collection. Fica Frio Limited, a company with reported Brazilian ties, recently filed a lawsuit in Manhattan Federal Court alleging that a 1958 Porsche 356 1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedster it purchased from Seinfeld is not authentic.
Currently, the lawsuit is simply a case of several Porsche experts not arriving at the same conclusions, but here are the general facts according to the court documents. Fica Frio (ironically meaning "chill out"), purchased the 1958 Porsche at Gooding & Company's 2016 Amelia Island auction with a high bid of $1.4 million (or $1.54 million after the 10 percent bidder's premium paid to the auction house). The car was one of several classic Porsches being sold at the auction by Seinfeld as part of the highly publicized "Jerry Seinfeld Collection," as noted in Gooding & Co. 's catalog. The group of cars, just a fraction of Seinfeld's total collection, sold for more than $22 million in 2016 and*the timing proved to be excellent*given*the subsequent softening of the collectible Porsche market.
The lawsuit alleges that the Porsche sold is not a genuine 356 1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedster. This was discovered when Fica Frio*hired U.K-based Lee Maxted-Page, managing director of Porsche dealer Maxted-Page Limited, to prepare the car for resale in March 2017. There, Maxted-Page inspected the car and informed Fica Frio that the car was not an authentic 356 1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedster and that the company would not be "comfortable marketing the vehicle." According to the court filing, Maxted-Page "expressed concern regarding the limited contents of the vehicle's history file, particularly the lack of photographic evidence of the restoration work." The filing says goes on to say, "Subsequent inspection and investigation revealed that the vehicle is not authentic."
Further in the court documents is the following statement, allegedly from the vehicle's history file and written by the party who sold the Porsche to Seinfeld, "Unfortunately we do not have a lot of information on the 1958 Porsche 356 A 1500 Carrera GT Speedster VIN 84908. We purchased the car from a broker who would not take me to the car [sic] original location to meet the family that owned it originally. I tried very hard to find out more but never could."
The case further alleges that Fica Frio brought its concerns to Gooding & Company in early 2018 regarding the situation. Gooding then reached out to Seinfeld. On June 21, 2018, documents state that Seinfeld left a voicemail at Fica Frio stating that he wanted to "offer my apology for this nuisance and assure you that you will be completely indemnified in full and not have to keep the car and get all your money back," along with, "I did want to apologize to you personally for that happening." According to the suit, Seinfeld also said that he "would love to know how you guys figured it out because I find that to be interesting 'cause that's impressive my guys did not, I guess, see anything amiss with the car when I bought it." Fica Frio contends that it still has not received return payment from Seinfeld, hence the legal action being brought.
According to Gooding & Co. 's 2017 Amelia Island catalog, the Porsche in question was purchased in pieces around 2009 or 2010 by Nick Clemence, the owner of well-known Costa Mesa car dealership European Collectibles. Following a multiyear restoration, the car was shown at several events garnering a First in Class at the 2012 Dana Point Concours d'Elegance hosted by the 356 Club of Southern California. It also earned a Best in Class finish at the Quail Motorsports Gathering later that year. Subsequently, it was sold to Seinfeld and retained by him until the 2016 auction.
So what do we mean when we say the car is said to be not "authentic?" Though we don't have any details, it's not likely that the car Seinfeld sold is a fake fiberglass Porsche replica. After all, Seinfeld claimed to have his experts inspect the car and if it is fake, it looked real enough to fool not only them but many concours judges. The car also is claimed by Gooding & Co. to have come with a Porsche Certificate of Authenticity, though that is simply a mail-away document certified with customer-supplied information. It's more likely that this is an authentic 356 Speedster, but not necessarily one of some 56 1500 GS/GT Carrera versions extant. Nearly 1,200 356 Speedsters were produced in total but the difference in value between a standard car and a GS/GT Carrera version is about $1 million.
Why the big price differential? Besides their relative rarity, 1500 GS/GT Carrera Speedsters were built for the sole purpose of racing and boasted highly-tuned Type 692/0 1,500cc "Carrera" four-cam competition engines, along with no sound deadening, a larger fuel tank, and sports exhaust, among other smaller modifications. The car in question was stated to be an even rarer 1958 version with aluminum body panels and seat frames, aluminum trim strips on the bumpers, two-piece aluminum wheels, and rear decklid louvers. Doubtless several 1500 GS/GT Carrera "tribute" cars have been built through the years, some even using genuine Carrera engines.
We'll have to stay tuned to see how this story plays out and we've reached out to both Gooding & Company and European Collectibles for comment*and will update this story if we receive any response. Right now, the case*hinges on differing expert opinions of the car's authenticity and will rely on proof—possibly via an inspection by Porsche itself—to determine what the true story is. Should the car not be authentic as the filing states, it may be possible that Seinfeld*could*recover his losses from European Collectibles. Stay tuned as this case develops.”

[TimT]

^^

Formatting wtf:

tl;dr

I'm interested... but not that much

[stealthn]

I think it’s interesting all around, Jerry’s guys couldn’t tell, two sets of concurs judges couldn’t tell (though not sure if they check VIN + Engine originality. It was sold at auction, you think both auctions would have done their due diligence?

Maybe it’s like that fake Carrera RS and you need to take a panel off to validate, at any rate, I’ll make some popcorn...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Sounds to me that a high end flipper bought at the wrong end of the bubble and is trying to use some circumstantial evidence to get their money back. I haven't read a single piece of "evidence" that the car is a fake.