Private toll roads in SoCal - need help.

[Rick Lee]

Some of you guys know about the 241 and 261 in Orange County. Years ago they had manned toll booths, later on automats and no people working there. Now, if you're not a local with a transponder, the first time you use them, they send you a bill by mail. When you pay that, that's constitutes acknowledgment that, in the future, you have to proactively log onto their site within a few days and pay.

Three years ago I got the letter in the mail, promptly paid my $9 in tolls. Last year used the 241 and 261 once and thought I just had to wait for the bill. That bill was $232 because I hadn't proactively logged on to pay in time. I got them to knock it down to $30.

This latest January, being wiser this time, I used the toll roads on one day, the very next day, logged onto the site, set up an account with my name, plate # and cc info. Site said it would automatically charge my card when the toll showed up, which could take a few days. I checked back about once a week. Tolls never showed, account always showed "no tolls incurred or owed." Yesterday I got a bill in the mail for $151. I went back to the site, logged on and it still says "no tolls incurred or owed" on my account. I took a screen shot and plan to call them tomorrow. WTF is going on here?

[ossiblue]

I'm only guessing because I refuse to use the toll roads, but probably the two "situations" are not communicating with each other.

Situation 1 is where you are charged and penalized because you should have pre-registered before using the toll road. You had already gotten
"the letter" and were in the system as one to receive penalties upon further violations. You created situation 1 for yourself last January. When you drove past the sensors, you are automatically processed as one who will be charged and penalized as there was no record of your registration at the time of violation. This is all computerized and instantaneous, the processing that is, not the reporting to the customer website.

Situation 2 is where a registered customer uses the toll road. The sensor immediately tries to match the license plate with an account and then, charges accordingly. You did not have an account when you used the toll road, so there was no knowledge of your existence. The next day, when you registered, your violation was being processed as a non-account violation and would never be considered for charging to your new account. The two situational systems do not communicate with each other. As far as the website reporting, your account never received a charge because it did not exist at the time of the violation.

I believe a call to a live person will resolve the issue to, at least, a one day toll charge and maybe a one-day penalty.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

The two situational systems do not communicate with each other.

...

[techman1]

Wow. Is this type of toll road mostly in California?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Some of you guys know about the 241 and 261 in Orange County. Years ago they had manned toll booths, later on automats and no people working there. Now, if you're not a local with a transponder, the first time you use them, they send you a bill by mail. When you pay that, that's constitutes acknowledgment that, in the future, you have to proactively log onto their site within a few days and pay.

Three years ago I got the letter in the mail, promptly paid my $9 in tolls. Last year used the 241 and 261 once and thought I just had to wait for the bill. That bill was $232 because I hadn't proactively logged on to pay in time. I got them to knock it down to $30.

This latest January, being wiser this time, I used the toll roads on one day, the very next day, logged onto the site, set up an account with my name, plate # and cc info. Site said it would automatically charge my card when the toll showed up, which could take a few days. I checked back about once a week. Tolls never showed, account always showed "no tolls incurred or owed." Yesterday I got a bill in the mail for $151. I went back to the site, logged on and it still says "no tolls incurred or owed" on my account. I took a screen shot and plan to call them tomorrow. WTF is going on here?

Sounds like a pretty good scam to make money to me.

[996AE]

yeah, they changed the rules. You have 5 days to go online and pay your one time toll. You can pay multiple tolls as long as within 5 days of toll.

My son at 16 got lost and went on toll. He told me about it a weeks later. He didnt even realise he was on a toll.

I called and spoke with a very nice supervisor who looked at the license plate history of the car and agreed to wave the steep late fee.

Give it a try.

[Evans, Marv]

Yes. Give communicating with them a try. Years ago, we got a statement from a toll road in S.F. showing a pic of a car & plate along with the bill. I emailed them we hadn't been in the S.F. area for years and the car wasn't the same as my wife's, plus the license plate number couldn't be very clearly seen. They emailed back saying we were off the hook and they'd try to find the car locally.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by masraum

Sounds like a pretty good scam to make money to me.

I'm certainly not going to defend the toll road operators, but IMO, this was a self-inflicted wound. The "letter" that you receive once you have committed a violation states that, to avoid more penalties in the future, you must set up an account prior to another use and if you have no transponder, log in to your account and pay the toll.

Rick's post is a bit misleading because he states that, "you have to proactively log onto their site within a few days and pay" and his post seems to indicate that is what he did. Except, he didn't. You cannot "log onto their site" until you have an account to log onto. Simply "going to the site" is not logging in.

Again, there are different circumstances. For first time violators, you have 5 days to create an account and pay all tolls without penalty. If not done, you get "the letter" and are expected to "know better" the next time and create an account beforehand.

[Rick Lee]

I created an account 24 hrs after using the road, entered payment info. Plate # on my online account is the same as in their letter to me, yet site says they have no record of my having incurred a toll or vilation. WTF?

[996AE]

Document call with email.

I had this happen once also.

There is a form to complete online with a complaint or feedback. They will answer. At least they did my exact situation. With an email saying no record of use so no fee from them I felt I was okay.

And no issue came from it.

Do they have record of when you created the account. I am no expert but I am sure they do.

[ossiblue]

I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative or trying to defend the toll operation. I'm only trying to point out how it appears that there is a misunderstanding of the situation. I was drawn to the three parts of your OP, below:


"the first time you use them, they send you a bill by mail. When you pay that, that's constitutes acknowledgment that, in the future, you have to proactively log onto their site within a few days and pay." To me, that means you need to set up an account before ever using the toll roads again. You get one "freebie" which is sent by mail and which you pay.

"Three years ago I got the letter in the mail, promptly paid my $9 in tolls. Last year used the 241 and 261 once and thought I just had to wait for the bill. That bill was $232 because I hadn't proactively logged on to pay in time. I got them to knock it down to $30." Here's where I'm trying to make my point. Three years ago, you made your first violation and got the letter. You had your freebie. At that time, you're required to set up an account to avoid further penalties and you would not get a repeat "freebie" letter. Then you had a second violation, last year. Calling them resulted in getting the fees reduced, but you still did not have an account.

"This latest January, being wiser this time, I used the toll roads on one day, the very next day, logged onto the site, set up an account with my name, plate # and cc info." This was your 3rd violation and you still had not set up an account. You then set up an account after the violation. The only time you can set up an account after a violation to prevent future penalties is when it is done after the very fist violation, in your case, three years ago.

And, a subsequent post:

"I created an account 24 hrs after using the road, entered payment info. Plate # on my online account is the same as in their letter to me, yet site says they have no record of my having incurred a toll or vilation. WTF?" My guess is the toll agency only "recognizes" you after you have set up an account. You only become a "customer", whose travel is monitored and eligible for on-line post-use payments once you set up an account. Previously owed amounts are not automatically cross-referenced into your account by license number or any other method. Since you set up your account, you have not used the toll roads thus, no violations are recorded.

Again, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just giving you an outsider's perspective based on what you experienced and what the toll agency has told you. I still believe if you call, you can resolve the issue, much like you did when you got your second violation reduced to $30.

[Zeke]

Taking the option away of paying at an un-manned toll station was a stupid move on the part of these private operators. Someday someone with some balls is gonna file suit and end this madness. Meanwhile, I go around.

As an aside, when I used to use the booths, manned and un-manned, I noticed that there was little to no traffic on these roads. And those that were on them were doing about 85 MPH free as a lark.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Taking the option away of paying at an un-manned toll station was a stupid move on the part of these private operators. Someday someone with some balls is gonna file suit and end this madness. Meanwhile, I go around.

As an aside, when I used to use the booths, manned and un-manned, I noticed that there was little to no traffic on these roads. And those that were on them were doing about 85 MPH free as a lark.

Agree with this^^, and when riding with others who used the toll roads, my observations about speed and traffic were the same.

However, I believe the move away from pay-at-the-booth was purely economic. The private toll company and their investors were not making the revenue they expected to pay off the bonds in time, let alone generate a profit. Paying to man the booths or even have automated booths was a drain on an already bleeding enterprise. Moving to electronic transponders and on-line accounts made economic sense. In theory, it would encourage occasional non-transponder owners to use the roads thereby generating more revenue.

Again, just speculation and I can't report on the impact the change made on traffic, paid or not, and speeds.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative or trying to defend the toll operation. I'm only trying to point out how it appears that there is a misunderstanding of the situation. I was drawn to the three parts of your OP, below:


"the first time you use them, they send you a bill by mail. When you pay that, that's constitutes acknowledgment that, in the future, you have to proactively log onto their site within a few days and pay." To me, that means you need to set up an account before ever using the toll roads again. You get one "freebie" which is sent by mail and which you pay.

"Three years ago I got the letter in the mail, promptly paid my $9 in tolls. Last year used the 241 and 261 once and thought I just had to wait for the bill. That bill was $232 because I hadn't proactively logged on to pay in time. I got them to knock it down to $30." Here's where I'm trying to make my point. Three years ago, you made your first violation and got the letter. You had your freebie. At that time, you're required to set up an account to avoid further penalties and you would not get a repeat "freebie" letter. Then you had a second violation, last year. Calling them resulted in getting the fees reduced, but you still did not have an account.

"This latest January, being wiser this time, I used the toll roads on one day, the very next day, logged onto the site, set up an account with my name, plate # and cc info." This was your 3rd violation and you still had not set up an account. You then set up an account after the violation. The only time you can set up an account after a violation to prevent future penalties is when it is done after the very fist violation, in your case, three years ago.

And, a subsequent post:

"I created an account 24 hrs after using the road, entered payment info. Plate # on my online account is the same as in their letter to me, yet site says they have no record of my having incurred a toll or vilation. WTF?" My guess is the toll agency only "recognizes" you after you have set up an account. You only become a "customer", whose travel is monitored and eligible for on-line post-use payments once you set up an account. Previously owed amounts are not automatically cross-referenced into your account by license number or any other method. Since you set up your account, you have not used the toll roads thus, no violations are recorded.

Again, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just giving you an outsider's perspective based on what you experienced and what the toll agency has told you. I still believe if you call, you can resolve the issue, much like you did when you got your second violation reduced to $30.

When I did this the first time, once the manned tollbooths and automats were gone, my host in Irvine told me, "Don't worry. They just send you a bill and then you pay it and it's all good." Why would I have not believed that? It's not like I have a lot of time to read the signs and take notes when I'm on a bike, looking for my exit. I still can't find anything on the website about having to set up an account in advance of using the road. I didn't even know those were toll roads the first time I entered the 261. I just stopped at the toll booths and paid. Next time I figured I'd do the same. By then they used automats. Paid then with no problem. Next time I figured I'd do the same, which was when my friend told me to just pay the bill I got in the mail.

I didn't read the fine print on the letter. I saw the amount due, it looked about right, I went to the website, entered my cc info and it was done. So technically, I guess I had an account then, but they sure didn't link it to me this past January.

I will be very polite and contrite when I call them tomorrow. But if they don't budge, I'm not going to pay. And if it ever shows up on my Amex (which they have), I will dispute it.

The letter says they can put a lien on my vehicle if I don't pay. Really? WTF? I have the AZ title in hand and I have to renew my reg. before the due date of the fine money. If I sell the bike a year later, can they really hold the title up when the buyer tries to register it in his name? I'd find that hard to believe.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I created an account 24 hrs after using the road, entered payment info. Plate # on my online account is the same as in their letter to me, yet site says they have no record of my having incurred a toll or vilation. WTF?

You are a scoflaw who is always getting jammed up..they should slap the cuffs on and send you up to the county farm..

[sammyg2]

The only toll road I've ever been on was the PA turnpike, but a while back the wife got a letter in the mail saying she owed the crooks a bunch of money for driving in a toll lane in LA.
And of course she did not understand why.

I check the picture and it was her car. I checked the time and date and said "wasn't that about the time, date and place you would have been when driving home from the ram's game?"
oops.
She admitted that traffic was really bad and her friend suggested using the toll road and she did.
I threatened to take her car keys away for the next two weekends and told her that was also the last Rams game she is going to for a while.
If she's going to act like a kid I'll treat her like one.

[berettafan]

PRIVATE road operators?

wtf is that?

after common defense roads are among the most important functions of gov't!

Suggest this issue and the clear scamming going on by these 'private operators' are good reasons for some things to not be privatized.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by berettafan

PRIVATE road operators?

wtf is that?

after common defense roads are among the most important functions of gov't!

Suggest this issue and the clear scamming going on by these 'private operators' are good reasons for some things to not be privatized.

I suggest the private part isn't the problem. It's the gubmint …….


This is how it works in So Cal:

Many years ago, California got a whole lot of $$$ from the federal gubmint to build carpool lanes on a freeway between OC and Corona.

And they took it.

Then they changed their mind and turned it into a toll road, with help from the taxpayers and a company called California Private Transportation Company (CPTC) who built the toll road, with help from the taxpayers $$$$ ????

Then when it was done, California Private Transportation Company (CPTC), sold the toll road back to the state of California. $$$$$$$$ ?????

Then the state of California gave California Private Transportation Company (CPTC), a very lucrative 35 year lease on the toll road. $$$$$$$$ ??????

Then the California Private Transportation Company (CPTC) sold it back to Caltrans?????
but it's still operated by California Private Transportation Company (CPTC)??????

And as confusing as all that is, the part that is really hard to believe is NO ONE HAS GONE TO PRISON OVER IT YET!!!!!!!

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

It's not like I have a lot of time to read the signs and take notes when I'm on a bike, looking for my exit. I still can't find anything on the website about having to set up an account in advance of using the road. I didn't even know those were toll roads the first time I entered the 261.

1). No advance warning of a toll road. (Entrapment)
2). No option to exit the freeway prior to receiving a toll ticket for what was originally built as a public road. (Contract of Adhesion.)
3). No cash payment option in person. ("Legal tender for all debts public and private")
4). A notification system highly geared towards late fees. (Fraud. Similar to banks processing mortgage payments late to incur penalties.)
5). Privacy issues involving tracking of citizens. ("Why were you driving there and then, honey?)

[Rick Lee]

Got it resolved online. I noticed they added an "MC" to the end of my plate #, which is why it wasn't synching with my online account. You'd think they might have a live human look this stuff over before mailing out a violation notice. They printed the letter without looking up my very uncommon surname (not Lee) in their account directory. I'm probably not the first motorcyclist from AZ who's run into this issue with them. Anyway, as soon as I edited the plate # on my account, adding an "MC" as they did, it synch'ed up and said I owe $6.21. The email confirmation said, "Dear Valued Accountholder:" Couldn't even write the software to use my name.