Portable Generator
 

Looking to get a portable generator. Minimum 10,000 watts constant output, electric start, not sure if I want the dual fuel option (gas and propane). Going with this option instead of a stand by unit. Having a manual transfer switch installed and will plug into this to power house. I see them priced anywhere from $1000 to $3000. Any recommendations?

Anytime generators are discussed a lot of folks myself included recommend either a Honda or a Yamaha . They are the top tier of quality generators but also command a top price . I bought a used E3000 inverter Honda and love it . It always starts and runs quiet . When you start getting up to a 15K generator they are quite thirsty on fuel so you have to plan to have a good amount of " fresh " fuel on hand .

Hard to predict how long power will be out so you may have to have 20 - 30 gallons of gas on hand , possibly more . I have been toying with the idea of a 20K stand alone LP powered generator . We have a 500 gallon LP tank which sounds like a lot but then keep in mind they only fill to 80 % of capacity so 400 gallons . If the power were out for a week and we ran the generator 24/7 that 400 gallons would be gone ! Good luck with your search .

I have a Honda powered Husqvarna 8K. I also have a manual transfer switch it plugs into. It will runs everything we need except the HVAC, which is fine.

I also have an electric start 3.5K diesel electric start generator. Same set-up.

During long outages (we have lost power for 5/6 days three times) I switch between the two. Sounds goofy, I know, but I keep both sources of fuel on the farm and I like options especially since I have an f'ing basement that will flood unless I keep the sump pumps going.

Good luck!

Send a pm to redbeard. That's his business.

Can't go wrong with Yamaha (my own) or Honda.
Top notch products.

Look into Champion. They make a 12kW gasoline. Not cheap, but they make good generators.

https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/100111-12000-watt-generator/

I have the next size down. Ran it for 2 weeks 24x7 the last outage. Ran flawlessly. The only knock on it is it’s a bit loud, but at 1/3 the price of a Honda I lived with it.

I use specific models for the low-level Mi-Grids

Thanks for the input Red Beard.

Any thoughts on a Cat RP8000? Tornado just missed us by 2 blocks and it looks like power will out for a while.

The one generator on the CAT website with a missing spec sheet.

It looks good. But buy a BUNCH of synthetic oil and spark plugs.

Portable generators are good for 50 hours (2 days) of operation before oil change and spark plug change. This is every two days. You might be able to extend the spark plugs.

Generators with oil filters are usually good for 100 hours (4 days) between oil changes.

can you hook a portable generator to a natural gas line?

There are kits which basically put a natural gas carb on the front of the air intake. I do not know how well they work.

Why the frequent changes for oil & plugs? Never heard of this aspect and I doubt I'm alone...living in the dark ages even with the power on :)

They are air-cooled lawn-mower engines.

Splash lubricated
Low compression with not exactly well sealing rings
Magneto type ignition
Not well speed regulated

On the pressure lubricated generator-engines with filters, they are good for about 100 hours, then you change the oil.

Think about a car engine. What is the average speed you drive over a week? Not highway speeds. Probably closer to 30-40 miles per hour. At 30 miles per hour, 3000 miles = 100 hours of engine operation. My Honda manual said if most driving is highway, 7500 miles is good for an oil change. 7500 miles at 65 miles per hour = 115 hours.

I expect if you were to switch to a C-D ignition and use better plugs, natural gas fuel, a MUCH better lube oil filter, you could get more hours. But these engines are not designed for continuous running long life.

One of the reasons our hybrid system works well is that you run the engine only a few hours a day. Instead of 100 hours = 4 days, at 3 hours per day you are about a month between oil changes. If you upsize some of the solar and batteries, then you may only run the generator on cloudy days and get 3 months between oil changes.

Thanks James!

I put in a manual transfer switch behind my load center. Bought a 9000 watt generator with
two single phase 220 volt receptacles. One a three wire with no neutral and the other a four wire,
Two duplex 20 amp wall plugs. A 12 volt DC output. 60 amps continuous power.
Works great. Everything in my house loves it.

Do we like it? No. Why? The design of an inexpensive generator is real noisy. It is not the exhaust system. It is in the design of the crankcase.
When I run it, everyone within 10 miles can hear it.
If you live in a housing community like me, get a real expensive Honda. They are quiet.

Check out the Duromax XP12000HE also. You can use propane or gasoline to run it.

I have one of those Hobart champion elite. 11KW & it's quiet. Very good welder, but also a very good generator. Around 3 grand new. Uses around a gallon of gas a hour. So if you're not powering anything super heavy I wouldn't recommend.

I have a westinghouse inverter generator for the cabin. 12 hrs per 1 gal of gasoline.

Questions on propane kits and manual transfer switches.

I now have a new Honda 2200i and may get a Companion 2200i if more power is needed and/or PG&E shutoffs get more frequent.

I want to run off propane because I don't want to deal with gasoline and aging of gasoline/etc. The two "leading" kits for the 2200i seem to be from Hutch Mountain and GenConnex. As far as I can tell the Hutch Mountain design allows easier return to gasoline power. GenConnex advertises their device is CARB approved. I assume both can control the air/fuel ratio adequately but I don't know. Any comments?

Manual Transfer Switches....
Getting power from a 2200i or then adding a Companion 2200i are all single phase output setups. No way to make 240V. The Honda 2200i has a floating neutral output - not GFCI. When you add the Companion the output changes to the 30 amp L5-30P from the 20amp receptacle.

Given that, a few questions come to mind:

1 - Is it okay, advised, a good idea or safer to get a manual transfer switch that also switches the neutral even if the generator doesn't have a GFCI output? Otherwise the neutral will still be connected to PG&E.

2 - Single phase manual transfer switches seem a bit hard to find for e.g. 6 circuits and 30amps. Where do I get these? One solution is to get a 120/240 switch and only use one side. Is that a good idea or what is normally done? Another solution is to bridge the input and feed both sides of the transfer switch with the one phase but that may not be wise or to code. I will be hooking up to certain 120V loads on a sub-panel in my house. Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks.
-Henry

You can't just "join" two units, unless they are setup to be connected and sync.

If you want a propane or dual fuel generator, I suggesting buying one that is designed that way.

https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/100264-3500-watt-dual-fuel-inverter/

This one is also designed to sync its output with another unit to allow 240VAC operation.

Split phase transfer switches do not switch the neutral. The Neutral is grounded at the breaker box or service entry. So it is not going to transmit power beyond the transfer switch.

This is the system bypass I generally use. It is unfused, so you will need to have a subpanel with a breaker. It is a three-way switch, you feed the utility power on one side, the generator feed on the other and the middle is the output to your sub-panel or service.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-100-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10323R/100171587

There is a 200A version which should cover whole house for most people.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463

Your idea for #2 is very normal for 120V installations. You feed both side of the 240V panel from the 120V single phase source. If you hook up a 240V appliance, absolutely nothing will work, except if it has some portions that are 120V (i.e. lights). This is quite normal on 120V 30A RVs

BTW, there are 120V 30A single phase AUTOMATIC transfer switches around for RVs.

I'm thinking at absolute minimum in a crisis you could get by with running a whole house gererator for only 4 hours/day. Two hours in the morning and two hours around dinnertime. That would keep the fridges operational, run the well pump, recharge batteries and electrically heat up some water twice per day.

My thinking is during an emergency extended power-outage I can adjust my comfort tolerance way up if I had to. It doesn't make sense to me to pretend to live like normal during an emergency. That requires tremendous energy consumption. I have no fear of huddling around a small propane catalytic heater if it keeps us from freezing to death.

red-beard,
Thanks for the info. I'm already $1,200 in with the Honda 2200i, so I'll just need to get the best propane conversion I can find. I agree, the best would be to get a generator designed for dual-fuel.

Good comments on feeding both buss bars with one phase. It seems that is okay as you mention. I don't see why that wouldn't work - the neutral should not get overloaded as it won't be more than the live wire is supplying.
Also good tip to look at RV sites to find 120V transfer switches that have only one phase. That could resolve the issue in general.

red-beard, et al.,
More digging on the internet.... looks like Reliance and Generac cover the vast bulk of the market for transfer switches. Both have many unfavorable reviews with regard to responding to issues or questions after purchase. I'm now looking at APC. One question on the APC - how does it work when the power goes out while you are getting the generator going?

Kohler and Generac have the majority of the market.

The automatic transfer switches are generally deigned to work with a specific companies whole house generator. I would not suggest mixing and matching.

Most of the ATS units have a solenoid circuit. If the circuit sees power on the Utility side, it will switch to the Utility system. If the utility power is off AND the ATS sees power from the generator, it will switch to the generator.

By APC, are you meaning a battery based system?

I'm referring to APC Universal Transfer Switch 6-Circuit 120V. When configured in semi-automatic mode it will start and run when the generator is started. This unit was suggested by one of the propane kit companies when I asked. A UPS can be added (in addition to the generator) but as I understand the instructions it is not required.
I like the intelligence that can be programmed in - e.g. turn off the refrigerator for a bit while the microwave is turned on etc. etc. Of course it depends on how the house circuits are set up.
There is mention of an APC generator but it doesn't seem like a requirement - I think almost any generator with 120V output will work. I'll check with APC if I go this way. APC knows what they are doing - I worked with them in my last job.
I'd like to know what you think about this APC unit.
Thanks.

https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Universal-Transfer-Switch-6-Circuit-120V/P-UTS6

Seems kind of expensive for a maximum of 20A.

This seems interesting

https://amazon.com/dp/B07J5JXFGH/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?pd_rd_i=B07JVBZB2Q&pd_rd_w=3S Aqh&pf_rd_p=45a72588-80f7-4414-9851-786f6c16d42b&pd_rd_wg=CS9tG&pf_rd_r=6766SGQJXFJFG5 NX4XK9&pd_rd_r=728c5b7a-3059-4c70-a728-7f5492face90&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzQlFN OFVIR1lNM1U3JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjk2NjI0MzdMTllCT1 VQWk5BTyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzI1MjAwVUsyRzZURzFX T1U3JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1 JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

Here is a very good small universal 30A 120V ATC

https://amazon.com/WFCO-Electronics-T-30-Automatic-Transfer/dp/B00B2AUZZC/ref=pd_cp_263_4/135-5984253-8195718?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00B2AUZZC&pd_rd_r= 1e16b7d0-d60d-4801-9060-26c8db562a7a&pd_rd_w=OtfUt&pd_rd_wg=31UpO&pf_rd_p= 0e5324e1-c848-4872-bbd5-5be6baedf80e&pf_rd_r=9QFA8YAYA01GGM83G21N&psc=1&re fRID=9QFA8YAYA01GGM83G21N

Do you guys using a portable gen (if not connected to a house transfer switch providing it), ground them? I suspect the vast majority of folks don't. I've never used one...electricity scares the hell outta me tho' :)

Absolutely. I have a wire connected to my ground rod that is unrolled to my generator.

I knew you would...but suspect many of the masses don't...especially campers, etc.

Hi James,
I was thinking I want a TS that provides for switching e.g. 6 circuits from LINE to GEN.
The links above look like they switch one circuit.
Thanks.
Yes - the APC solution is a bit pricey - I think each circuit, of 6, can be loaded to 20 amps. For me 20 amps per circuit is fine.

I found a Kohler 6 circuit manual transfer switch and it looks exactly like the Reliance. I suspect they are the same.

The "6 circuit" is just the sub-panel attached to a transfer switch.

Most regular transfer switches are between the utility power and the main panel.

These smaller things are between a panel and an emergency sub-panel.

That's very true. Having lived in FL after many hurricanes and in Calif during the third-world-utility power outages, I can confirm that most cheap powerful generators are loud as hell and aren't making you new friends... If you want to run it after hours, the hondas are fantastic.

My Honda 2000i is more limited in what it can run, but it still will run a fridge/freezer, TV, microwave and a few lights - quietly... Ok the microwave not so quietly, that thing is a power suck and takes it right out of eco-throttle in a hurry, but the rest, you can run as long as the gas will last (6-8 hours), without pissing off the neighborhood. That counts for something...

Is there a full house generator that will run (on what?) for a week on fuel that doesn't go bad, quietly ??? This might be the way to go!


Funny story re: last outages due to Kincade fire last week, my 2000i is just good enough for my house. My annoying neighbor had no generator and begged for a line to his freezer so we obliged (and therefore could not run 1/2 our stuff). Day 2 or 3 of the outage, I unplugged him for a few minutes so my wife could make herself warm coffee with MY generator. Neighbor sneaked into my backyard and replugged himself (and popped all our home devices with his freezer)... I was gonna have a serious chat with him that involved trespassing but next time I saw him he'd bought himself one of those loud generators and made sure to point out his was 3x more powerful (and loud!!!)... F#$ckwit. Last time I help him out.

I've looked at the price of the big ones, of solar, powerwalls, honestly $1000 for a quiet honda plus an electrician to setup a connection to a few chosen circuits sounds way cheaper... My power cords solution this time was not optimal... I'd love solar plus powerwalls but that also triggers a roof rebuild, and adds up to $40K in my case, vs $2000 for a quiet generator + an electrician / switch.

For affordable quiet generators, the harbor freight Predators have proven to do well at MC events running tire warmers all day, all weekend long and AC on toyhaulers all night.
They seem to be a good value. We used our Kipor Generators for several years as a affordable alternate to the Honda.

https://www.harborfreight.com/3500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-63584.html

Any whole house generator will be quieter than a portable. They all have a decent muffler and sound insulation under the cover.

They become significantly quieter when you get to the 2 cylinder air cooler engines (16kW to 22kW). They have a lot more sound insulation and a better muffler.

25kW and up you are water cooler. They are derated 4 cylinder car engines with full mufflers. The enclosures are heavily sound insulated. Quieter than an idling car, most of the time.

The ones I am specifically talking about are natural gas/propane. The Diesel units are generally a little bit louder. for the same size. You can always put the unit in the bushes, which helps with sound as well. Or surround it with a wooden fence.

As far as going a week. I expect you can go a week between shutdowns. The manuals say change the plugs and oil every 100 hours. I doubt most people do that. I do suggest with any of them to use a very good quality synthetic oil.

Thanks, that was very helpful!

If you end up with a portable generator, one inexpensive way to knock the noise down is go get some hay bails. They help. I have played many outdoor gigs in remote areas and the property owners would use portable gen sets surrounded by bails of hay and they actually really helped.

Generac just released a brand new 13kw with hydraulic lifters that, coupled with a 250 gal LP tank, will get you 100 hours of run time at 3/4 load. Thats 4 days and 4 hours straight.

I point out this new 13kw because it was specifically designed to handle the RLA of almost all modern central air compressors for average sized houses while significantly giving a longer run time on a given sized tank. If you have NG at your house, and entry cost is not an issue, then buy a 22kw.

People in hot humid areas buy whole home generators for two things. AC and the fridge. Everything else is a peripheral concern.

We are doing the 13kw, 16 circuit Automatic Transfer switch, 250 gallon tank and all electrical and plumbing, for $9,999 plus permits plus tax.

DL

Fat-Cat, that sounds in the ballpark. City requires electrical and plumbing permits?

Getting the sub-panel wired by a good electrician costs money. I think that Generac ATS can limit loads for A/C startup.