B & O 5500 Linear tracking.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1675722705.jpg

Having just bought 8 new matched Tung-Sol KT-150’s (Russia), I can certainly attest to that!

This is an education for sure !
I got to studying tube amps and I am a bit overwhelmed as of right now.
Plug-in / double-ended, single-sided. etc etc etc.
I had no clue.
For sure I have always said," tube juke boxes sounded better than anything else I have ever heard!."
Now i am getting to know why

https://www.amazon.com/Willsenton-Single-Ended-Integrated-Amplifier-Balanced/dp/B0841J88GH


Or the R8

I have a ways to go here as far as education and input is welcomed.

Besides the warmth and euphoric sound quality of vacuum tubes, that path takes it further from appliance to hobby…Honda vs Porsche in a way.

Changing tubes often requires adjusting bias settings which all influence sound quality. There are amps that make it easy (autobias) and some with built in bias gauges, etc. My PrimaLuna amp has auto-bias, so tube rolling is just the flip of a switch. You can also switch between Ultralinear (more dynamic) and Triode (warmer) with a button on the remote. What they do is less important than what you hear on each setting.

Generally tubes last thousands of hours, trouble free. And not all are mega-bucks. For me it makes it more involving, much like turntables. Honestly if you enjoy spinning records, you may enjoy playing with tube gear. Or you can just sit down and enjoy the amazing SQ and a nearly visual sound stage.

Do you have the opportunity to listen to any of these components you are interested in? You may not ending up caring about amp configuration but how it sounds to your ears.

In the end, it will be a hipshot guess, go do it, and hope, as I live in the middle of nowhere, pretty far from somewhere.
Even 100 miles from me I know of no one that is into turn tables /tube amps and pure great sound.
My education will come from here, utube and where ever .
I know of no stereo store anywhere anymore, for a demo like in the old days .

For sure I have always said," tube juke boxes sounded better than anything else I have ever heard!."

Afterburn, just checking, this line has me worried a little, if you are after a "RETRO" sound of a old juke box I do not think any modern speaker will give that, the frequency range of any old juke box that I have ever heard is pretty limited, no real high frequency or real low, more of a full sounding midrange. The newer speakers are able to reproduce the sound more true to how it was recorded.

Most modern tube amps sound very different to the older designs, I do not think that most people could tell them apart from a good modern solid state amp.

All good info
But because I am stubborn I have to go with some sort of tubes .
I will if nothing else be the status quo.....LOL
No, i know I will enjoy the tubes -
no matter how it all comes out.

LOL, nothing wrong with wanting to play with tubes, aside from what they cost these days. Just expect the sound of newer speakers to be much more dynamic and open compared to an older juke box. I still have two tube preamps and a CD player that use tubes so I have nothing against them, aside that they can have problems taking the low frequency when I crank it up way too loud.

Check out the Audiogon forums. Then peruse their classifieds. Also, US audio mart. No brick and mortar here either.

When I was getting educated on buying a stereo way back in the early '70's, I was always being told to settle on the speakers first as they are what produce the sound your ears will ultimately hear.

There is plenty of mythology in sound reproduction.

Yes, speakers are arguably the most important single hifi component.

Tube juke boxes tended to have remarkable LF response. This should answer anyone's concerns about whether tubes have adequate LF response. Of all my stereo gear, my amps with EL84 output tubes clobber the rest in their robust LF response.

Mega-Watt SS setups often, IMHO, overdo the low frequencies. Some folks prefer to hear low frequencies that are many times louder than 'normal.' Louder than actual live performances. Subwoofers are entertaining to some folks. I don't use them.

Back to speakers: Some folks want compact size, high sensitivity/efficiency and great LF response, and you can only have two of the three. My speakers are physically large (not compact) and have high sensitivity and good LF response. 103db sensitivity, which means that with a single Watt of power, they are nearly as loud as lawn mowers. My power amp makes no more than 8 WPC.

Others prefer high-watt systems feeding low-sensitivity speakers. Pick your poison, but don't be assuming that tubes have poor LF performance, since this is just not true. I am a bass player, and my two favorite gigging amplifiers are tube amps. Overall, the most popular bass amp head over the last sixty years is a tube amp called the Ampeg SVT. In a league of its own.

These are my speakers:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/infinity/column-ii.shtml
Not small by any means but not as large as some I know of.
They are capable of playing loud enough to drive you out of the room.

For the record I did not say that the tubes could not do low freq. But I do not believe any old juke box can do accurate low freq down to 20hz, I doubt the it's below 40hz. Hard enough for high end speakers to get below 30hz but properly set up subs can do the job extremely well.

Very few speakers reproduce useful music below 50hz. Only really deep pipe organ or low frequency effects happen below 40hz and that is mostly for film soundtracks. Most of the vinyl produced from 1940-1980 was mixed and mastered on reference monitors that rarely reproduced below 50 hz. The fabled JBL 4311 found in most A list studios had a response of 45-15k +/- 3db.

A Juke box does exactly what it was designed for- play and reproduce hit records designed for radio airwaves to the masses, not audiophile golden ears.

As far as tubes go, I love em and have 3 tube amps in my project studio. They are guitar amps strictly for music production, not music reproduction. After everything gets mixed, mastered, and compressed I see no benefit and cannot hear the difference once EQ'd for sonic parity. I have not seen a tube amp running studio monitors anywhere for at least 40 years. All of my critical listening speakers are bi-amped SS.

DCM Time Windows, all you need to know

Will respectfully disagree Cajundaddy. Most modern floor standing speakers go well below 50hz with little/no rolloff. My Focal Aria 936’s are -3db at 38Hz as I recall. Like many, I integrate (hi level) an REL sub that blends in and goes down to about 25Hz.

The benefit is not to necessarily “hear” the sub (when properly integrated you don’t hear it at all) but rather to pressurize the room with harmonics that are missed otherwise. It makes the SQ so much more palpable and rich, even in mid-range frequencies. And of course Toccata and Fugue in D minor will shake the foundation on a good recording!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1675866959.jpg

Yes you can find them. I used to own a pair of Altec A7-500 that were rated to 35hz and classical music is one of the few places you will find "useful" music below 50 hz. I sometimes listen to Charles Ives and the organ passages are pretty amazing but... this represents about .00001% of music produced over the last 80 years. If this is your thing, you probably need those Arias.

My measure of deep bass these days is a kick drum. If I cannot hear a discernible difference between unfiltered down to 35hz and a signal limited with a HPF to 45hz then we will often go with the latter to clean up unwanted LF rumble that muddies the mix. We are currently working with a vintage Hammond B3 w/Leslie and we will probably keep as much bottom as she will produce for effect. Deep bass is always a tradeoff and getting room boundaries to play nice with a 27' audio wavelength becomes challenging.

It is interesting how many people believe that the low frequencies do not add anything to the music. I can tell in a couple seconds If I do not plug my subs in, I normally leave amps and subs unplugged from AC power. The low freq part of my speakers are rated -3db at 28hz, but in real life applications I do not believe it is only -3. The people not appreciating what a sub can add is likely because they have never listened to a high quality subwoofer set up correctly. Hopefully we are not just confusing afterburn 549.

The low E on a four string bass guitar (the lowest note it can play) is about 41 Hz, but this is not the frequency you actually hear. You hear the harmonic (82Hz). Your brain fills in the gap. Psychoacoustics.

On a five-string bass, the low B is 31 Hz but you hear 62. Or, more likely, 124.

This phenomenon is so thoroughly understood that if you just google something like "low E frequency" or "low B frequency," You'll get plenty of hits that barely discuss the frequencies of 41 and 31, or not at all.

Chocaholic correctly reports that when we go through the gyrations of actually producing these frequencies, it is not to hear them so much as to feel them. Pressurize the room, he correctly reports. In a live band performance, where serious wattage and speaker/cabinet equipment is used to emphasize these 'subsonic' frequencies, then there is another problem you will encounter. Often, and especially where these frequencies are most emphasized, you get this boomy, wolly, sound-pressurey thing that distorts the rest of the music, and you also get hot and dead spots throughout the room. In my bands, if a sub will be used, it will only slightly enhance those subsonic frequencies. But then...those are not disco bands. Even in the country bands, with all those low frequencies in modern country music, subwoofers are not important. In my view.

Chest-thumping sound is an interesting experience, but it's not how music actually sounds. Unless, as others have mentioned, you are trying to reproduce the sound of a live pipe organ. Good luck with that. ;)

And, as at least one other has mentioned, if these subsonic frequencies are the goal, then you will need to feed a lot of current into low-efficiency 3, 4 and five-way speakers. Some folks like this and are willing to try to balance and smooth out those different frequency band systems (tweeter, at least one mid, woofer and sub). My preference is for the (to my ear) more smooth and delicate high-efficiency speakers.

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting this. Bass is an important part of music but put a Real Time analyzer in the room and play your favorite album. There is vanishingly little music that happens below 45hz so a speaker that reproduces cleanly down to this point typically sounds like it has amazing bass response.

As we proceed to lower frequencies the room tends to get in the way and reproducing a 27' LF waveform in a 20' room stacks up into standing waves and turns to mush with a lot of hot spots and dead spots. Faithful reproduction of the music is lost. It is completely subjective at this point whether you like/don't like the LF effect and I am not one to judge another's preferences, but I subjectively want my bass reproduction clean with as little mush and rumble as possible.

Most subs typically cross over at 100-120hz and fill in a lot of energy between 40-120hz. We sometimes rent powered subs for outdoor live shows and their useable response is 47-100hz. These add a ton of bass energy right where we need it and there are no boundary issues causing flutter or standing wave mush. Just huge clean chest-thumping bass.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ELX200-18SP--electro-voice-elx200-18sp-18-inch-powered-subwoofer?mrkgadid=1000000&mrkgcl=28&mrkgen=gdsa&m rkgbflag=0&mrkgcat=livesound&lighting&acctid=21700 000001645388&dskeywordid=39700065013198087&lid=397 00065013198087&ds_s_kwgid=58700007229425429&device =c&network=g&matchtype=&adpos=largenumber&location id=9029568&creative=537361853724&targetid=dsa-1385849837970&campaignid=6730319011&awsearchcpc=1& gclid=CjwKCAiArY2fBhB9EiwAWqHK6k7yx2nrrlvSJMdkqXs3 O4DU2-5w_f9HODBLgDCEn_6EqvPqcftAcBoCoNAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=a w.ds

My fav turntable was and is the Thorens TDK 125 mk11.
I has been a long time since I had all my old Audio Pyle Stereo stuff.
Lots of Crown stuff , Studio Mastering Decks , Digital Delays , I still have 10 Bose 901 speakers of which 6 are 1969 series 1 Originals, to many other speakers have gone to the way side .

But the TDK 125 MK 11 was my Favorite

Ian

Cajundaddy is spot-on.

Cajundaddy, I see where you are going wrong, you cant place one of those ELX200 18" subs in a home audio room and expect it to sound good, you need two and place them in your neighbours house.

Well we have different opinions of what can be done with subs, and can assure you mine do not make the room sound muddy at all, 2 x 13.5" but also have a fairly large room and they are set to a low crossover point about 45hz, also I am listening to mostly CD's so different low level then LP's. My belief is much of the muddy sound people get is from low end subwoofers, or is from the drywall flapping about from a room not properly built.

I still believe it is safer to choose a speaker with smaller woofer like the ones I suggested, less likely to be a problem in any room size can place them where they sound the best for imaging and add subwoofer if needed, that way it can be placed where it sounds it's best, they are almost always different locations.

With a sub crossed over at 45hz you are chasing LFE while I am chasing music content. Apples/oranges and each is a valid approach depending on your wants.

Cheers!

Yuo. Different strokes for different folks. Nothing is "wrong" if it makes you smile. From my perspective as a bass player, subs create as many problems as they solve, often. If/when they are used, I just require that they be used in a particular way so as to prevent the problems. Used properly, they are fine. They add some percussion and audience excitement. Sort of line the cannon in 1812 Overture.

Back to turntables...budget minded might want to check out the Uturn line...from around $200 to a grand.

(edit) Scroll to bottom to see entire line.

https://uturnaudio.com/products/orbit-theory-turntable

I found a Dynavecror 10x3 phono cartridge in a drawer, and the needle appears skewed to one side
So I presume it's junk, can I straighten it? push it back.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1676227234.jpg

Many brands can have the cantilever replaced. You may want to check with DV.

Thanks, I found their website so I'll contact them,
My Thorens TD145mkII has a Signet 5.0me on it now

Link to their USA website
Dynavector

I have an extremely early one that was made for commercial recording use. Its mono but it has a huge amp with different inputs and giant tape heads, about 1" diameter, circa 1952 made by bradmaster in birmingham. it came with an acetate reel with an interesting documentary about building a ring road around brminham after it was bombed out in the war. the company later got involved in mellotrons and that's another fascinating story. It had some Beatles recordings and Im not sure if they are original, likely not but i need to verify somehow. the old acetate tapes are fragile so I want to re-record this stuff. the deck has 10 inch reels and a wooden cabinet.

the thing is made for 220V 50 cycle so it will run too fast here on 60 cycle. I' ll need to change some gearing and it's mono but still neat. the tape deck with it's amp is the same size as a dishwasher.

before tape decks there were wire recorders, that was the previous technology.

I picked up a amp and then a tube tuner from the later 50's or early 60's I saw the same one on happy days. 20 watts I think , it runs 6L6's

I collect and restore old tube radios mostly from he 20's and 30's some later. some amps and tape decks and interesting things find their way into my collection. mainly I gravitate to Art Deco stuff but I like some of the really early gear, I collect some Bakelite and interesting shaped ones. I have tables, lamps early (1930's ) clocks etc that are also radios and find this sort of dual purpose stuff helps display more without it getting too repetitive. I could probably fix tube amps but the collectors of audiophile stuff are fickle, old radios are not generally very high fidelity and you won't hear about old radio owners going into detail about which tube sounds sweeter, or how hard they can drive their tubes, but rather why it wont work when it has come to them with 6 different reasons not to work after spending it's former life as a mouses house. It's almost never profitable but its fun to restore them. a lot is the cabinet work , refinishing lacquer mostly. I have amassed enough projects that I can never say I'm bored. Its a fun hobby but there is a tendency for older people to respect them more and there are not a lot of young tube radio restorations to pass the torch to.

When I do find a likely victim with a passion for them, I'll probably send them home with people giving him the high beams because his back tires will look half flat. Getting old radios to pay rent for their bedrooms is very difficult.

WOW
I think you should start a thread on your hobby!
Electronics ....I have a long long way to go

for anyone wanting to resore old tube radios , this is a good place to start reading:
https://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm

if you look on ebay, or locally, there are lots of offerings as long as one is reasonably complete it's usually restorable. manly , if you take an old radio and check resistors, replace any bad ones and replace all the electrolytic and paper caps then it will often work quite well. there is more to it like alignment and tube checking and other repairs but for the most part its bad capacitors. Tubes store for many years and see little use . the only ones I have problems sourcing tubes for are really old stuff that was made int he early 20's and some used specific antique tube types. peanut tubes, WD11's are examples.

If anyone is local to Vancouver or wants to pay shipping I can find some interesting projects. One thing I wont work on or bring home is square boring cabinets. i also tend to not work on anything with PC boards or transistors. about the only exception is european radios, blaupunkt , grundig nordmende etc, some of those have tubes and FM although most are mono they have more frequency range than most of the US made radios. I tend to want to do those occasionally as they do have FM whereas most old radios are just AM short wave etc. all talk radio now mostly..
FM wasn't mainstream until the mid 60's and transistors were taking over that market then. most of those european style radios had "piano keys" along the front . They were tube radios but they were built upon circuit boards. earlier radios were all point to point wiring , no circuit boards. occasionally you may run into a Tar block which is a bunch of components sealed into a metal box encased in tar. For the most part they have lots of room to work in and around.


there were some "FM radios" that were made to receive on the "Armstrong band" be careful, because they are useless as there is no such broadcast, they went the way of the beta VCR - never saw popularity.. I have some examples.. if restored they will only play static.

The mid 60's european radios used electrostatic tweeters and had more sophisticated circuits. some were stereo but most were not. those can be fun to listen to as they will receive FM. Some collectors re-broadcast MP3s or FM stations over AM , its a way to play the music you like but for me the challenge is to make them work and look nice For every day use I have 70's stereo gear I use daily. Id love a nice big tube stereo amp for daily use. a Thorens and a Mckintosh maybe ;-) ... I could trade a restored antique radio..

and yes the tread was mainly centered around using 70's equipment for modern day use I just interjected a bit..I do find more modern hollow state audiofile equipment interesting too, so back to our normally scheduled programming now ;-)

soundsmith can rebuild that dynavector prob alot cheaper than the factory, with a MC cartridge, retipping is often not that far off replacement cost. The cantilever and stylus are a big part of a cartridge's character so it could be changed a bit by 3rd party retip. 200$ for a basic rebuild might be worthwhile however.

https://www.sound-smith.com/options-cantilever-and-stylus-shapes


Music has very little energy in the last octave 20-40hz, except maybe electronica. The chest thumping impact is more like 60-100 hz. Subs give alot of placement flexibility since bass is heavily room dependent and also remove distortion from excessive excursion in the mains.

They really are game changing but you need alot of care and some mesurment to set up right, need some dsp capabilities.

It is basically impossible to get even bass response in a normal sized room with out some form of signal processing, you ears and brain sort of hear through the peaks and nulls however.

Thanks! they are located not to far from me :)
https://www.sound-smith.com/options-cantilever-and-stylus-shapes

my turntable , I think it's hitachi , it has a "NAD" aftermarket cartridge is that a common brand? can I get the needle still?

Here you go

https://www.turntableneedles.com/Find_Turntable_Record_Player_Stylus_by_Model_Numbe r_for_NAD

Do a search of NAD 9000, 9001, 9100, 9200, 9300 and see if one of those cartridges looks like yours and then search replacement stylus using that model number.

I have a Dynavector cart as well and my understanding is they will rebuild for you.