Legal / Real estate / contract question regarding included personal property...

[LeeH]

I'll make this as brief as possible.

I'm buying an investment property. As stated in the contract, the purchase includes "the entire contents of the house."

There was a small lock box in a closet. I pointed it out to the listing agent who stated the elderly seller had removed everything he wanted from the house.

Today, I went into the house for a final inspection and the box was gone. My agent called the listing agent who stated she removed the box (without notifying us, obviously) because the seller needed paperwork from the box. The seller lives in another state and is sending the key. It has not been opened yet.

So.. what if there are valuables (cash, jewelry) in the box? Who do they belong to? The contract clearly states "the entire contents" are included. There are a variety of other personal papers and collectibles throughout the house. Closing is next week but we have a signed contract.

[Eric Coffey]

If it's not considered a "fixture" and not specifically addressed/detailed in the contract, then then it's probably not worth fighting over.
And, unless you are present when the box is opened, you will likely never know the extent of the contents anyway.

This is why it is always a good idea to include a detailed and itemized breakdown of ALL additional personal property that is to be conveyed with the sale.
Same goes for items that do not convey with the sale (and/or items that are to be removed prior to close).
The standard AAR contract here in AZ has a section carved out to address this very issue.

If any/all of the personal items are significant enough to impact the purchase price and/or are being used as an incentive/enticement, then it's a good idea to write up a separate purchase contract to address those items.
Lke when you see things such as "free car included with purchase" for example.

If you have any questions, give me a call...

[MBAtarga]

I think I'd want to be there when the box is opened.

[71T Targa]

Originally Posted by MBAtarga

I think I'd want to be there when the box is opened.

[john70t]

Without being notated, sealed, and a chain of custody the chances of it being something are close to nothing.
Also if signing the official closing docs for ownership hasn't occurred, it might be up to interpretation.
Oral agreements as to who said what in AZ will be a 'YMMV'.

But regardless of value if it's family items it should stay with the seller, morally speaking.

[KFC911]

Probably belongs to the seller's wife Pandora...

I'd just let it go

[biosurfer1]

I agree the box is probably not anything notable, however I would be annoyed at a seller's agent removing things from the house without consent.

All he/she would have to say is "there is some paperwork in a box the seller's forgot they needed" and I'm sure it would be no problem. Trying to be sneaky and getting caught is no way to leave a lasting impression.

[mepstein]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

If it's not considered a "fixture" and not specifically addressed/detailed in the contract, then then it's probably not worth fighting over.
And, unless you are present when the box is opened, you will likely never know the extent of the contents anyway.

This is why it is always a good idea to include a detailed and itemized breakdown of ALL additional personal property that is to be conveyed with the sale.
Same goes for items that do not convey with the sale (and/or items that are to be removed prior to close).
The standard AAR contract here in AZ has a section carved out to address this very issue.

If any/all of the personal items are significant enough to impact the purchase price and/or are being used as an incentive/enticement, then it's a good idea to write up a separate purchase contract to address those items.
Lke when you see things such as "free car included with purchase" for example.

If you have any questions, give me a call...

All good advice.
It’s hard to maintain control as a buyer since the house doesn’t belong to you yet but the listing agent had no business removing items from the property. I would be there when “your” box is opened. If it was included in the contract it’s as much part of the deal as everything else. If you have any doubts, talk to your closing attorney.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by mepstein

It’s hard to maintain control as a buyer since the house doesn’t belong to you yet but the listing agent had no business removing items from the property. I would be there when “your” box is opened. If it was included in the contract it’s as much part of the deal as everything else. If you have any doubts, talk to your closing attorney.

Yup. Since the deal hasn't closed, ownership of the box still remains with the seller (and now, so does possession, via their agent).
You could issue a cure notice if you feel it's a material-enough issue to delay COE (and/or potentially walk away over).

Regarding the Capone-esqe reveal:
Unless you maintained control/possession of the box prior to the key arriving, You would never really know if the agent was opening it for the "first" time or not though.
The whole thing sounds a bit fishy, so there is also the possibility that the seller knows nothing about the box at all.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

Yup. Since the deal hasn't closed, ownership of the box still remains with the seller (and now, so does possession, via their agent).
You could issue a cure notice if you feel it's a material-enough issue to delay COE (and/or potentially walk away over).

Regarding the Capone-esqe reveal:
Unless you maintained control/possession of the box prior to the key arriving, You would never really know if the agent was opening it for the "first" time or not though.
The whole thing sounds a bit fishy, so there is also the possibility that the seller knows nothing about the box at all.

Yep. I texted lee and told him about all the same things you have lol. You could cure them sure, but ultimately it only allows you to delay or walk. I’m assuming he actually wants to buy the house, so not sure what fighting over this is going to gain other than more stress, and for all we know the box is full of dust bunnies and old porno mags?

Theoretically you could get a lawyer and make them abide by the contract, but again at what cost? And is it worth it?

[cabmandone]

Without the words "in their present physical condition upon the execution of this contract"... ya got nothing.

For what it's worth, if you're buying real estate, keep the real estate and the personal property separate. When I was in real estate, the office I worked at had a policy of keeping personal property out of a real estate contract. If the buyer wanted personal property we would suggest having an attorney draft a purchase agreement for the personal property and itemize what they wanted to keep.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by cabmando

Without the words "in their present physical condition upon the execution of this contract"... ya got nothing.

And without knowing what was in the box at execution of the contract you’ve got even less.


It’s not like we are dealing with a situation where they took all the appliances. At least there you would have pics of what had been there to hold them to.


They could open an empty box and say see, it was empty when you signed the contract. We thought something was in it, but were mistaken. You’d be screwed. It’s really a no win situation at this point.

[cabmandone]

"in their present physical condition"... box was removed from the property. No longer in its present physical condition, could opt out of the contract but that would be about it.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

The whole thing sounds a bit fishy, so there is also the possibility that the seller knows nothing about the box at all.

This.
If it was me I would let the seller know directly the box has been removed.

If it's only a collection of sentimental matchbooks..or a million in Krugerrands..makes no difference.
(ok only a slight difference)

The property sale is not final, and all items have not been accounted for.
The selling Realtor or Agents might not be on the level.
Go forward with a clean conscience.

[URY914]

Hey, that's my box. I left it there one day while I was visiting my buddy. DO NOT OPEN IT! I'll PM you my address.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

I agree the box is probably not anything notable, however I would be annoyed at a seller's agent removing things from the house without consent.

I agree. My friend bought a place with a barn from an 91 year old man who was going into a home. The agent said he just wanted to walk out of the house - everything on the property came with the deal. There were two tractors and three band saws in the barn on the morning of the closing. Came back from closing and there was one tractor and one band saw. Selling agent made some excuse - they belonged to someone else or something. Not knowing what else might have disappeared, my friend called his lawyer. Tractor and band saws came back, but he doesn't know what else might have been in that barn that he didn't know about. It was packed with tools and junk.

[Chocaholic]

It’s a small lock box. May contain valuables, paperwork or sentimental items only valuable to the seller. Don’t be greedy. Let them have the box in total. Seems like you’re trying to have a windfall over something peripheral to your purchase.

A matter of doing the right thing. My opinion.

[LeeH]

Of course I was hoping there was something of value in the lock box. I was told the seller had collected everything he wanted and nothing would be removed.... then, the listing agent did remove something and did so without notice.

There are a variety of collectible items with some value inside the house. Nothing huge, but it all adds up.

They have agreed to return the box and all contents that are not of a personal nature before closing. I requested that a broker be present when the box is opened to document the contents. But... they're not even 100% sure that the keys they're bringing includes one that fits the box... in which case it will be returned intact.

[javadog]

Well, that changes everything.

The seller has never lived there?

[LeeH]

Originally Posted by javadog

Well, that changes everything.

The seller has never lived there?

No. It was his parents house. I believe he's 83 and his dad just passed away at 105.