Should I be a free filing cabinet?
 

Sorry, this is a long one. I will see if I can do a TLDR at the bottom.

I think there is at least one other Land Surveyor on here. I am curious to see what his take on this is.

I have records going back to 1982, in 2000 I purchased an existing company and all its files.

While I never get requests for 20+ year old surveys, I do get requests for anywhere from 3 to 10+ year old surveys.

When I say requests, I should clarify, requests for free copies of the surveys on file.

While the state statutes indicate I keep my files, it does not say they are there for the free enjoyment of anyone who wants them.

At least once a week I get requests from all sources, homeowners, pool companies, fence companies, title companies, mortgage companies etc... They all want a free copy of a survey on file. If this was a once in a while thing it would not bother me, what annoys me is that I appear to be their filing cabinet.

5 Copies are delivered when an order is complete. So there should be a copy on file with the homeowner.

I have a rule, if the survey is more than 3 years old, and I think that is too lenient, I require a crew to visit the property, recover the property corners and locate any changes to the property, be it an addition, pool, fences, sheds or more concrete.

I offer a 50% discount off the original price of the survey to do this.

So many time people freak out and want a free copy and refuse to pay for the survey to be updated.

This is the incident that has me pissed and sick of giving out copies for free.

I just had an Attorney from Connecticut contact us, we surveyed a large property of hers in 2010, she pretty much threatened right off the bat to report me to the board of regulation if I did not hand over a free copy of my survey. She stated the statute where I have to keep my records and indicated she would escalate this if her request for a free copy was not fulfilled.

Not interested in getting into a war I just sent her an old copy with the 2010 dates on it.

I happened to drive past the property 1 week later then again 2 weeks later, it is along a road I take at least once a week.

She most likely handed my copy over to another surveyor for a discount, she sold the property it was empty, the property was obviously freshly surveyed the second time I drove by. I am assuming she supplied the buyers with my copy I sent her.

I do not give discounts out if you hand me and old survey from someone else, I was hired to survey the property, if you want to hand me a copy to see if we both agree fine, but I am going to survey it fully, I do not put my trust in others work, it is my license on the line I am going to do it all over again.

I just got another email at 5:15 on a Friday, a mortgage company wants a copy of a 2013 survey for free to cut down the closing costs for his client, it is actually worded like that in the email.


So, am I in business to be a free filing cabinet for every one?

Do the laymen on here think I have a lifetime obligation to a past client to provide free copies whenever they need one? Or does my obligation to them end the moment I deliver my product to them?

TLDR

People keep popping up want free copies of surveys 3-20 years old.

Should I be a free filing cabinet?

Why can't you declare that surveys older than 3 years have been stored offsite and charge an administrative fee to recover the survey and provide copies? Other agencies do it all the time, and the copies are not usually very cheap.

I know nothing about the law, but can you charge a fee for office time, copy printing and postage?

As a layman and without reading the statute, given your information I would say you are not obligated to provide FREE copies to anyone, once the initial client has been provided the copies he has paid for. The legal obligation to keep the records for 20 years does not, as you've stated, obligate you to provide copies at all, let alone free copies. Certainly, you'd have to allow someone to access the surveys, in your office or other location, but they are not entitled to a hard copy, unless the statute states such. Again, there is no entitlement to a free copy should the statute simply state access must be available.

I think craigster59 has a fine solution. Like the mortgage company, people are looking for a cost lower than a new survey. Pricing copies of old surveys a bit lower than a new survey will either drive away the requests, make them want a full priced new survey, or make them think they are getting a "deal." Regardless, you will be paid for your time and effort if you charge enough to cover those two factors.

BTW, public records held by the government nearly always cost to get copies. Why should a private company have to eat the same costs that the government passes on to the customer? That lawyer needed to be challenged, but I completely understand the route you took--not worth the headache.

Let me ask you this question:

"Name at least one other Profession that freely gives away their work product that was a result of a contract by two parties, to a third party and thereby extends their liability from the initial contract to the next party without compensation?"

I am guessing that the State of Florida does not have a mandatory survey/plat recording law, otherwise a trip to the courthouse or online they could get what they need without contacting you.

And that's my take as a Professional Land Surveyor.

The attorney survey from 2010 was only in cad format. My receptionist told her it was a 9 year old survey and we would need to retrieve it from cadd.

Then the threats escalated. I learned a long time ago not to F with attorneys. If I had known she was one in 2010 I would have never worked for her.

I have a no attorneys policy if I know up front you are one I pass on the job. That is another thread.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I guess I incorrectly assumed that was how it works everywhere... :confused:


https://srs.sandiegocounty.gov/




https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...924/LHDoZb.png

I know if I called my attorney and asked for copies from a legal matter they helped me with years ago I would be charged a significant fee,

I don’t know what the law would state, but presuming that the law did not prevent you from charging, this is what I would do:

The original person that contracted for the survey should get a copy for whatever handling fee you deem appropriate for your time and materials. Everybody else, and I mean everybody else, would pay you whatever higher fee you think is appropriate. They were not part of the original contract for the work, they have no rights to your work product. You can always tell them that the original survey was done for X person, and they could go get a copy from that person, if they didn’t like it.

Nothing in life is ever free, unless you want to do someone a favor.

FOIA.

For free, they can go to the town/county/whatever and request copies that were submitted with plans/permits or recorded mortgages.

Well, govt can charge reasonable copying charges.

We had aerial photos that went back to 1947. We did not do ANYTHING for free. And we would tell a customer what we had, but the only way they got to see the image was to buy a print. Everything was copyrighted. You should do the same. If a top client calls and wants a survey from a few years back, maybe give them something, but charge for every moment you spend preparing them.

You don’t do that for a hobby, and I doubt you need any practice. Be like my CPA, charge by the minute, 15 minutes minimum charge.

Why not charge an "administrative fee" calculated based on how on how many years old it is?

OOh.... if you get into the "work for hire" and "copyright" angle, Jim may not even be ALLOWED to distribute a copy to a 3rd party, since that would be in violation of copyright laws. And since the laws says he has to keep a copy, he can't send the only copy he has. What a shame....

Although statute may require you to keep copies for a certain number of years, I am certain it does not require you to guarantee the veracity of said survey beyond a certain period of time.

If I had an attorney giving me a rough time I would tell her to take a hike. The time and energy it would take her to report you to a board of regulation, have the matter investigated, ruled on and finally acted on would likely exceed the time she has on hand to deal with the reason she need the survey in the first place.

If I was somehow compelled to send out another copy of an old survey I would A) charge a fee for my trouble and B) stamp the survey with a large disclaimer stating it was out of date and not to be relied on. Whoever she gave it to would then likely ask her for a new one. The reason she needs it is likely to pass on some kind of risk.

I deal with attorneys often in my business and the vast majority are great. The ones that are pushy and arrogant I push back on. As long as my rules and ethics are intact I won't capitulate to some uppity lawyer. The pushy ones are banking on the fact that the most of the public don't want to tangle with a lawyer. They are human too. They have limited time and resources just like the rest of us.

I don't know the regs, but I would think that "you have to keep your records" is not the same as "you have to provide a free copy for anyone that asks."

"Yep, I've got records. A copy of one of my records costs $X."

I can remember, very distinctly, one Land Surveyor's Continuing Education seminar that I attended where the speaker of the day said:

"Having a fire or flood destroy your records every now and then is actually a good thing."

And there is your answer.

You once did a job for another client and filed that required paperwork with the city/state.
If she wants the information she can get it from public record.
Easy enough for her.
"Go pound sand".

Anyone else, as id10t noted, might not even be legally privy to your company proprietary data.
Caution.
I don't think it's legal to publicly distribute inside photos, blueprints, and pushing it a little further a full guide to some clients alarm and security systems.
(See: Streisand Effect vs. Google Maps vs. The Internet)

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Just as a note:
Attorneys charge professional fees by the hour with a minimum for just talking to strangers.
Next time you talk to her, why don't you stop her right there and discuss your own consultation charges before anything else is said on the phone.
Your own time is just as valuable.

And just to be a jerk:
-If you are that pissed, then you still could send her a small bill just for the principle of it all.
-She will toss. Huffy. Humph! "The nerve."
-It will go unpaid and become compounding when she doesn't bother to show up in small claims.
-Local laws may vary.
-Some "notice of service" or whatever is fulfilled by just advertising in the local legal news rags.
-Then you sell it to debt collection and sit back and laugh.

That clown attorney has already spent twice as much time and money trying to fix the original problem and is probably fried from it all.

I've found that anytime an attorney uses the fact that they are an attorney as a threat, they're a lousy attorney.

How do they know which surveyor to contact for records of a particular property?
Everywhere I've lived a copy of every survey is required to be filed with the county. If you need a copy of the survey, you go to the county.
Not knowing your particular circumstance, I would think you could say, "I provide copies of surveys for $35, but you can get them from the county for free."

^^^^ or $135 if ya really don't wanna waste yer time. As a professional courtesy....$500 for attys ....unless yer a Pelican ;)

One and done...for that original agreement....it's over imo....but I'm not an atty....slept well last night too :)

This seems very odd, my best friend is the CEO of a fairly large land planning/survey company and it's essentially a full boat charge regardless if it's already on file. Those are the spoils of business, seems odd anyone would expect your time/data for free.

This!

Why would anyone expect you to spend your time and effort to make free copies? We had an attorney threaten to sue us because we would not let him browse through or aerial photos of an area. We told him it was all available, but the cost went up the more he threatened. No one else on the planet had the images. We were willing to sell him a copyrighted print that he could not legally copy, but nothing more.

It was from a project in the 1950s the state government hired us to fly, but they lost their copy long ago. We had the original negatives. But we refuse to do anything for free.

One website claims the average home price in Jensen Beach FL to be $246,300. That would make a Realtor's commission, typical 6% of $14,778. I would be very surprised if a Professional Surveyor was paid more than $500 (a whopping 3.3% of the Realtors Commission or an outrageous 0.2% of the home sale price) for the typical run of the mill "Mortgage Closing Survey" down there.

And they are requesting a "free" copy of an old survey to be updated for free to keep the closing costs down?! That's absurd. Do you think the Realtors involved in the transaction of the home 6 years ago would do it all again for NO compensation?!

You should charge them if they are not Record Maps. If recorded, they should go to the county and get them.

When a piece of property changes hands, the survey should be filed at the Probate Court office along with other pieces of information. Once there it becomes available to be seen by the public, all a person has to do is go ask for it. Of course, they would need to know the land lot number and enough other info for the correct documents to be found. Why can't you just refer the person making the request to the Probate office at the courthouse?

Damn Jim.....sorry to hear about the fire man.

Just a damn shame I tell ya....glad nuthin' important wuz lost ;)....

Tell them it's free as long as whatever they do is free to you.

OTOH,

Every time you turn around like to consolidate miniscule parcels into a single plat, the surveyor racquet’s got you by the berries with the full and complete cooperation of the government who forces you to get a brand new survey just because...?

I read the entire thread.

If it were me, I'd set a price for copies of existing surveys to cover your time and trouble and make sure it is published on your business website, listed with your 'services offered' documents, as well as in a posted sign format hanging in your office - for all to see.

Someone starts squawking - just point to the sign.

Have no idea what to charge - that's up to you.

You can always waive the fee for those who "take care of you".

Just had my place surveyed. We had maps and old surveys, but only one of the original monuments could be found. The survey revealed that many decades of assumptions about the boundaries were wrong. My western boundary line runs straight north for 400 feet, then goes north northeast for 1000 feet. There is a steep ravine that runs the same direction. Everyone assumed the boundary line ran on the eastern ridge of the ravine. Nope. It runs on flat land 20 feet east of the ravine - through my utility building and my chicken barn and ends in a creek.
One piece of my property has been assumed to be a part of my neighbor's field. He is currently farming it. I'm not sure what to do about that. It's only a couple thousand square feet, but I'm paying taxes on it and he's using it to make a profit. That seems like something that should be corrected, but how?

You've just move there...I would NOT worry about taxes on a trivial amount. Me....I'd talk to the neighbor, let him know what you've discovered, and tell him to carry on doing so...

If it's really no big deal to you....is it?

I have a couple like that....tracing the histories back over 75-100 years as large parcels are split/traded/? over time...interesting too.

But it is your land? Has he been using the field "forever" with no permission? Find out ....protect yourself with an agreement.

Good luck!

Thread hijack warning ;)!

I have a small parcel (1 acre) that was surveyed 7 years ago (without my knowledge) by a neighbor who "thought" she had an egress easement (not on deeds, etc) going back almost 4 decades, unknown by anyone but "her".... and relatives long passed.

She learned....quickly.

Now I want to mebbe redraw the lines with another neighbor (adjacent to both)....

That was a $1600 (waste) for the egress neighbor....too bad. I won't pay that much to do what I'd like to do...should be easy-peasy....but I dunno?

I have a surveyor lined up for some other properties...ask him, or try to use the surveyor that did it 7 years back? I have no problem paying (neighbor/surveyor)....just see no need to do it ALL again. What say ye? Thanks!

edited: I learned something from her survey too btw....about 1/3 acre I " thought" I owned....belongs to someone else, not even her...I had no clue :)

Sorry for the lack of replies, I was out of town over the weekend and did not want to reply on my phone.


I agree I guess I am venting. There is no profession where they give anything for free.


In most all of these cases I am referring to Mortgage style surveys for Real Estate closings, I moved away from Builders and Developers in 2008-2010 and aligned with a few title companies, some use my company exclusively. They kept my doors open from 2008-2016.

Now building is alive again, I work for one tract home builder and a few small mom and pop builders. I really do not want to get back into development heavy again. Too much stress.

I mostly work with title companies now, they keep me busy and to be honest, I like the work, I am out looking for other surveyors mistakes. I am shocked how many times I find them too.

There is no state law concerning filing every survey with the state. There is a platting law, all plats are filed and recorded in the public records.

There are local building department rules, the last survey they require filed is a form board survey. Therefore that is of no use to a mortgage company.

The title company receives copies and it is assumed they include on with the closing package as well as file one.

There is a form Title Companies have, it requires an older survey and the homeowner signing the form that states there are no changes to their properties.

It is amazing what people will sign to save a few hundred bucks. They will even lie.



If I provide a copy of a survey for $35 I then assumed the liability of whatever transaction is occurring at the moment. See above about the recording rules here.

Obviously they have either a formboard survey from the building department, or a copy of a copy of a copy from a previous owner or from an older closing. That is how they know I surveyed the property.

We do get the odd phone call from people fishing around trying to find out if you surveyed their property.


That is why I did not rely on older surveys I will use them as a reference to help locate monumentation outside that I am running out the land and yes I have found problems that were not found by the previous surveyor.

I am sure SCadaddle has his list like I do, there are surveyors out there you just never trust, you know they suck. Those are the ones that give discounts if you give them another surveyors work, they just copy it. I am sure that is what happened with that attorney I discussed in my first post. That property was very old and was very complicated, we put a lot of work into that survey and now another surveyor most likely copied it and did not actually survey that land.

Those types are in every profession.

I work for a large pool company here in town, a few times now, they depended on notoriously bad surveyors work and it burned them. Now, whenever they have a tight fit, they have me go out and re-survey the property so they are sure they are not going to have a problem.


Thanks for all the replies fellas, it was insightful and helpful.

We work with a lot of surveyors. We do the aerial surveys and sell that right to a surveyor to add to his data.

They all talk about how some mega gazillion dollar project gets put together, but when it comes to the survey, they give the surveyor very little time, and then whine that they have to pay more than 100 bucks for you to do your job. Then they want to take 6 months to pay you for the work.

Yes, that's probably what I'll do. Maybe give him a 99 year lease for $1 or something. It's in a flood plain so it will never have much value. I've lived here two years and the farmer has had to have a dozer come and push sand off of it due to floods both years. I'm not sure why he bothers with it. It's across the creek and through the woods from our house - basically inaccessible. It has no value to me, unless there are minerals underground. Maybe I'll go shoot at it and see if oil bubbles up (Beverly Hillbillies reference there). :)

Yup, what we do does not matter, until there is a problem then suddenly it matters. We just a provide a piece of paper that the bank or building department says they need to move forward.



In 2003 I quit from a builder that would take 4-5 months to pay his bills and always ran a 25-30K balance.

There was a point where it was hitting over 6 months and I had enough. I told him to get caught up to net 60 or I was not taking any new orders.

He stiffed me out of 25K. I learned from past fights with Ahole lawyers, write it off as a loss and move on, I would spend 10K and maybe get 10K out of him.

I just found out 2 weeks ago, he did this to all his contractors, every one, he put the bank draws in 6 month investment accounts. I have not idea what you can invest in for 6 months. Once it matured he would pull the money then pay his subs.

What a POS.

Oh, the email that triggered this, I answered this morning. Told them I do not release older surveys without updating them. I offer a 50% discount to go back out, recover the property corners (we then check them with GPS) and note any changes to the property.

I was told they do not need a new survey they want a copy of the old one, the client did not get one at closing.

Yet they know I surveyed it and told me the date of my survey.

I have not even bothered with a response at this point, I hate liars.

^^
Good for you!

As Jim probably knows, the "Insider joke" within our profession of Land Surveying is:

"What's the difference between Doctors and Surveyors?"

"Doctors bury their mistakes, Surveyors monument theirs!"

We had one large firm stiff us for a just under 30K and we hired an attorney to get a judgement against them. When they went to bid on a federal contract, the bid was thrown out because they had a judgement against them. They suddenly found our phone number did still work. They wanted the judgement released ASAP and they FedExed us a check. We made sure the check cleared, and then we called the attorney and had her send a bill as well for all the legal costs. Once that was paid, we told her (the attorney) to release it whenever she happened to get around to it. They ended up paying us 100% of the bill, and the attorney fees.

That company actually called us to do a project after that, and we told them check for full amount before we start the airplane. They did.

It worked out great for us, the attorney was a friend that was willing to file some paperwork and all she wanted was the possibility to get paid if the client choked up the money.