some have seen the truth
 

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/o...3/23/do2305.xml

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)


I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the **** out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.

I frequently exchange emails with a cousin in Vietnam. I occasionally ask her about world events and affairs. You'd be surprised how she dodges my questions out of fear of getting in trouble. Now, if my cousin is scared to tell me her private feelings in a somewhat private email, I can't imagine how some Iraqi citizens feel. Get these people in private and speak to them face to face, without a government thug standing at their backs, and then and only then will you hear their true feelings.

I discount the fact Iraqis are not welcoming us in open arms, because if the US does not TOTALLY remove the regime, these citizens risk enduring a cruel death. Don't believe me? You do NOT know the real world.

That, my friends, is why I give unwavering support to the US cause. We are not perfect, but it's as close as it can get. I feel fortunate to live where I can speak my mind and argue my opinions, yet still have the personal experience of knowing how bad it really can be.

Jürgen

This Iraqi thing is so much like Nazi Germany. Reports of discusting human torture leak out, but are quikly discounted by those whom are afraid of the costs of facing the dictator.

Good post, stray! . . .we'll wait for the nay-sayers.

thats funny, no responses from them...suprised?

I watched this guy from Iraq (he is the Middle East expert for the Pentagon - Hussan somethink I think) and his statements reflected what was said above.......

....but when Peter Jennings said, "So, the people of Iraq are pro-war, hate Saddam and are happy the Americans are here?", this fella said, "No, it's a strange circumstance.......if you gave any citizen a gun, they would take no greater joy in killing Saddam themselves, BUT they still hate the Americans.........it's a very double sided hatred". This confused Jennings (what a suprise!). He couldn't understand why the Iraqi people would hate Saddam, but not be happy the US was taking care of him. I think this confuses a lot of people. It makes sence that if the Iraqi hate Saddam, that they would support America.....but according to this Middle East expert - that is not he case. The above text only showed how much the people of Iraq HATE Saddam - I think everyone with a brain already knows this.

I also believe that most "anti-war" protesters are not protesting to SUPPORT Saddam and/or his regime (I don't think anyone BUT Saddam supports his regime), it's to NOT support the US Governments decision to approach this situation in this way.......why doesn't anyone understand this? If you're "anti-war", it doesn't mean you're Pro-Saddam or Anti-America or Anti-American troops - it just simply means you don't support the WAY this war unfolded and/or you suspect the Bush Administration's motives may be suspect, that's all.

I think it is unreasonably hopeful or naïve, to think the majority of Iraqis will like the fact that Brit's and Americans have done the job they could not.
They will be no more thankful than the French, for there liberation from the Nazis.

Let's just make certain that we don't turn around and give Iraq some sort of UN "victorious nation" pity prize. They would surely use it to screw us, just as the French have.

As to ""anti-war" protesters are not protesting to SUPPORT Saddam "
It is overtly obvious that the goal (of the "anti-war" protesters) is to use this situation to find fault with Bush.

NONE of you said a peep when Clinton was lobbing cruz-missles at Saddam. NOT A peep!

Interesting point......

Nobody did care what Clinton was doing.

Then came 9/11.........

Nobody cared before Pearl harbour either.

Does this mean 9/11 and Pearl harbour HAD to happen? Yes.

944S Boyeee

I have no problem with people who are opposed to war. This is America, and the Bill of Rights is still in effect.

The problem I have is it seems like most of these assclowns don't seem to care one way or the other, they just want to cause trouble. They seem like the same professional twits that cause problems at WTO meetings. Nothing says peace and love like a good old fashioned fire bomb. :rolleyes:

If you want to protest, fine, go nuts. It is all well and good that you don't have anyplace else to be in the middle of a weekday (like God forbid an actual job), but don't keep people who are just trying to get to work from getting to work by blocking traffic.

The other thing is, when asked, the war protestors don't have a clue what they are talking about. They don't offer solutions, they just shout slogans.

"Give peace a chance!!!" When asked "A chance to do what exactly?" you get blank stares, and the faint sound of crickets chirping from somewhere behind their vacant eyes. There is some great video here:
http://brain-terminal.com/video/nyc-2003-02-15/index.html

It happens a lot when the defenders of the undefensable are presented with facts counter to their position. They just ignore the arguments, and keep up the party line somewhere else. Here is a good example.

Tom

Here are some facts to counter a postion......

1. Saddam has not threatened the US
2. Iraq is, in no way, connected with 9/11
3. There has been no real proof that Iraq possess weapons of mass destruction
4. Most of the World opposes this war
5. "War for Peace" just doesn't have a good rhythm to it.

So, should I expect to hear some crickets chripping now?

944S Boyeee

Hmmm, according to those protestors Bush is Hitler without the mustache. I wonder how much hemp these people use on a daily basis??? What a bunch of mucking forons!!! If Bush is Hitler, these people need to go to live in a Communist country. After all, there's no way a Communist country could possibly be worse than living under Hitler...

Jurgen

You presented facts, so how can I respond...

What you posted were opinions.

Jurgen

Wrong. See "lendady's" list of Saddam quotes here

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2. Iraq is, in no way, connected with 9/11

You are correct (as far as is currently known), but Saddam supports terrorist activites by overtly paying families of suicide bombers in Israel. He may not overtly attack the US, but there are others who share his common enemy who certainly would. Remember, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

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3. There has been no real proof that Iraq possess weapons of mass destruction

What proof do you need? They admitted it, they haven't produced evidence of its destruction, they used it on Iran and the Kurds. NOBODY is disputing this except you. Even the French admit they have them, they just dont think it is worth going to war over.

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4. Most of the World opposes this war

Most of the World doesn't care because it doesn't affect them either way. A handfull of countries are vocal in their opposition (France, among others), and some are quiet in their support (Poland, among others).

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5. "War for Peace" just doesn't have a good rhythm to it.

What would you call WW2?

On that note, I am going to make a prediction. In the next few months, things are going to come to light that have been going on in Iraq that make Joseph Mengele look like Captain Kangaroo (944boyee you may want to do a web search so you understand that reference).

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So, should I expect to hear some crickets chripping now?

Well, they are still chirping in the other thread where you wowed us with you brilliant insight, and then ran away with your tail between your legs.

See my response to your comments here, and show me where I am wrong.

My guess is more crickets.

Tom

I cannot reply to those "answers" because they only seek to make EVERYTHING happening in this war justified.

I know that Saddam MAY have weapons (he sure is firing off a lot of nukes right now and the American troops are all full of chemicals....NOT! - but seriously, he may have them), and I know Saddam is "terror-related" and I know Saddam is bad. I have swallowed the pill and except the fact that all the "antiwar" arguements are not solid. Why can't you except the fact that there may be some bad points to what the American Government is doing?

At least be a man and admit that someone else may actually have a point.....and a clue. You know, I don't need to do "web searches" to learn things......I'm Canadian, we actually study other cultures in our schools.

Insult my intelligence all you want - it still won't make you any smarter - and that's not an insult about your intelligence level. I can separate someones intellect level from their opinions. I suspect you to be quite smart.....I may not agree with your opinions, but I don't let that allow me to form an opinion on how smart you are. See, I'm not THAT dumb!

944S Boyeee

Welcome back, 944SBoyee!!!

I do agree with you that the US government doesn't ALWAYS do EVERYTHING the right way. Especially when it comes to war, right and wrong motives are often difficult to discern. As you know, I am all for the USA using military force to oust Saddam from Iraq. I believe we are doing the right thing. HOWEVER: I have a hard time with the fact that VP Cheney's company is the choosen one for helping rebuild the oil infastructure in Iraq: I think that will become a egg in your face situation for the Bush admin.

Well, that's all.

-Zoltan.

PS: Please change your avatar: I'd appreciate that.

I never said everything in the war is justified. I am saying that the war itself certainly is justified. If you can give an example of something deliberate that the coalition has done that isn't justified, I am all ears.

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I know that Saddam MAY have weapons (joke snipped)

Again with "may." Iraq has Chemical and Biological weapons. Everyone knows they have them. Nobody is saying they don't have them, except Iraq. If they have no chemical weapons, why would they need all those chemical warfare suits and all that atropine in the hospital Iraq was using as a military base? You can bet that given enough time, they would have nuclear weapons as well.

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and I know Saddam is "terror-related" and I know Saddam is bad. I have swallowed the pill and except the fact that all the "antiwar" arguements are not solid. Why can't you except the fact that there may be some bad points to what the American Government is doing?

I do accept that fact. I just haven't heard anything yet that is a bad point. All I hear is "Bush is like Hitler," "No war for oil," "give peace a chance." and "can I interest you in some literature on how wonderfull Marxism is?" and, no, I am not kidding. You can watch a video from the San Francisco "peace" protests here. Yes, this is the same "peace protest" where the police found molotov cocktails.

If you are interested, there is more Iraq reading here: US State Department fact sheets May I suggest you start with "A Decade of Deception and Defiance," it gives a chronology of Security Council resolutions for the past decade, and how they have been voilated. You can then read more about the gassing of Kurds (you know, with the weapons they "MAY" have), and how swell they treat women.

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At least be a man and admit that someone else may actually have a point.....and a clue.

I will admit others have a point, when they have one (you may notice I agreed with you on point #2). As to the clue, I generally give people the benefit of the doubt, but your comments in the other thread and your continued use of the word "may" regarding Iraq's chemical weapons even when provided with evidence doesn't seem to support this assertion. I am waiting to be proven wrong.

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You know, I don't need to do "web searches" to learn things......I'm Canadian, we actually study other cultures in our schools. Insult my intelligence all you want - it still won't make you any smarter - and that's not an insult about your intelligence level. I can separate someones intellect level from their opinions. I suspect you to be quite smart.....I may not agree with your opinions, but I don't let that allow me to form an opinion on how smart you are. See, I'm not THAT dumb!

The "do a web search" comment was out of line. I am sorry for that.

However, it does not excuse this:

I ask again, what exactly would be a valid reason to launch a mustard gas and cyanide attack on a village full of women and children?

Tom

944S Boyeee said: Why can't you except the fact that there may be some bad points to what the American Government is doing?

- None of us would deny that there may be some bad points to what the American Govt does. Your arguments sure have gotten watered down lately. It wasn't long ago that all you could do was spout off nonsensical conspiracy theories. Those posts are why none of us can take you seriously now. Maybe you should change your name to reflect the weakening of your arguments. May I suggest 944S Boyee Lite as a new name?

944S Boyeee said: I'm Canadian, we actually study other cultures in our schools.

- Yeah, since you are Canadien, you would need to study OTHER cultures in order to be studying a culture. You want to insult our country? We can do the same, but we can actually back it up. I can see where you would have so much pride in your historical, economic, political, social, military and cultural "powerhouse" of a country.:rolleyes: ROTFLMFAO!

I have to say that I am surprised that someone who "has it all figured out" and is as "intelligent" as 944S Boyee Lite is, wouldn't be called McLaren F1 Boyee or 911 Twin Turbo Boyee instead of 944S Boyee. Get my point without me starting an inter-Porsche model owners battle?

Good point racea. We all know intelligent people drive only Mc Larens and 911TTs.

I've have to agree with Z, change that avator Boyee.

To everyone: Support our troops or be banished to france.

Come on thamlin000, you know what I am semi-jokingly implying. If the guy is that exceptional, to have figured out what the rest of us Porsche owners can't comprehend..... well nevermind, I'll let it go.

I thought everyone would like my Avatar, after all - it is making fun of Saddam......oh well.

racea911 - thanks for solidifying my views on how American's (well, some at least) view other Countries. If you knew ANYTHING about Canada, you would see how entrenched in culture and history we actually are......and I never insulted your country, just pointed out the fact that World Geography/History isn't exactly the American school systems jewel.

Let me give you an example. I was in Florida a few years ago. I know enough about Florida (capital, where it is on the map, major exports, etc, etc) and was talking to a nice Floridian who worked at Arby's. When I pulled out a Canadian $10 (it's Purple, by the way) to pay, this nice person said, "What's that - it looks like Yosemite Sam money" - followed by, ".....is it real???". She went on to ask, "Where are you from in Canada?. I said, "Nova Scotia". She said, "Nova Scodia - is that near Toronto?? And the clincher....."Is it always pure ice up there?" I thought nothing of this at first. I thought perhaps an Arby's worker wasn't a fair representation of the American people.

Then I went to "The World's Biggest Flea Market" (my mom loves em'), and ran into the same ignorance from almost all the vendors. Again I thought I may be in the wrong place to find the American's who do respect other countries differences......nope!! It was like that everywhere I went.

Do you know how that makes a guy feel? I honestly felt like Canada wasn't even on the map. Up until that exact moment in my life, I never questioned anything about America. They always seemed friendly and such.....but after living the ignorance, I actually kinda was mad and disliked the attitude. It was like I finally talked to the mother of a girl I had been dating for 15 years and the first thing she says when she meets me is, "What was your name again?".

I could go to any state in the US and at least know where the state is in conjunction with the other states. I can at least tell you the capital, and I have a general "feel" for each state and how it is different from the other states in culture, history and overall "style". If a visitor from America came into my work, they wouldn't leave feeling rejected or ignored.

As for me "having it all figured out" - well, that is soooooo not the case. But I do think my "conspiracy theories" are not that far out in left field, so yes - I do think there is a possibility I may be correct. If I didn't really think what I believe to be true, I wouldn't believe it.

You see, we live in a world of deception. If you watch Survivor, they cut and edit the show to make you think something is happening that really isn't. Viagra is deception. Every women who wears make-up is deceiving others. People "pad" their resumes. In the early 70's - people were fooled into thinking leaded gas was ok. Older cigarette ads actually said smoking was good for you. There are fibers that "look and feel" like cotton. MacDonalds "100% pure beef" - well, we all know that not true. There was a company a few years ago that was called "Fat Free" - that was the company name - so their Yogart was "Fat Free", at least we all thought it was. "Spin Doctors" are a plenty and P.R. companies are some of the biggest companies in the world.

My point is I just feel it is ignorant to not consider all the facts, stories, ideas, etc, etc - especially when it comes to the Government. If society is all about deception, we can only imagine what the Government could be doing with thier resources.

As Mark Twain said....., "Do not fear the enemy, for your enemy can only take your life. It is far better that you fear the media, for they will steal your HONOR. That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoemaking and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poorhouse."

.....as for me not having "FI Boyeee" or "911 Boyeee" as a name......well, if that's a slight on me not being smart enough to afford a 911, then that's the saddest thing I've heard in a while. If you mean I'm not smart for owning a 944, as opposed to a 911 or F1 - then check this link out......

http://www.toystoremotorworld.com/allused.asp

This is my uncles dealership. I have driven a lot of the cars on this lot, even the Ferrari and the only car I would take over my 944S is perhaps the Mercedes Benz SLK230 Kompressor. That's says a lot about the 944S. I wouldn't be able to afford the Mercedes right now (I must be too daft) - but that is basically because I had a guy murder two people, (then shot himself) in a bar I used to own. Needless to say, I lost a somewhat large amount of money due to this unfortunate event. I was informed that my insurance would cover me closing the bar for a few months to clean up and take some time to re-group. I had the bar closed for 3 months and lost close to $100,000 after the insurance didn't cover me during that down time. Needless to say, I'm rebuilding....so perhaps FIBoyeee is still in the works.

944S (and proud of it) Boyeee

Yeah, I got it. The bigger pic of him was "stand alone funny"
. . . once it got down to the avitar level resolution, much was lost.

How 'bout zoom the gogles, at include a title:

'ROID RAGE'n Mr.McGoo
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/00mcgoo.JPG

Ya island, you're right.......the big glasses/Harry Carry quote were the jist of the joke.....but the smaller picture didn't have enough "punch".

I'll re-use the smaller pic you just posted once Saddam is dead. The caption will be, "I heard the glasses survived".

Whatta ya think?

944S Boyeee

"I heard the glasses survived".
 

:D

Also something that bugs me. Many Americans can't do that.

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You see, we live in a world of deception. If you watch Survivor, they cut and edit the show to make you think something is happening that really isn't. Viagra is deception. Every women who wears make-up is deceiving others. People "pad" their resumes. In the early 70's - people were fooled into thinking leaded gas was ok. Older cigarette ads actually said smoking was good for you. There are fibers that "look and feel" like cotton. MacDonalds "100% pure beef" - well, we all know that not true. There was a company a few years ago that was called "Fat Free" - that was the company name - so their Yogart was "Fat Free", at least we all thought it was. "Spin Doctors" are a plenty and P.R. companies are some of the biggest companies in the world.

Are you comparing so called "reality television" and advertising to news?

You also dodged my questions. Again.

Tom

Point taken and it's kinda funny, but I see where you are coming from. I just wanted to be a smartass.

emcon5.....

I'm not really "comparing" reality TV/advertising to news......they are different beasts in many respects, but the end result is that WE view the finished product. I'm not saying the news is all smoke and mirrors......but those who provide the news are in control of what is reported - meaning, just because we see it on the news, doesn't always make it true. News stations don't just run out and put on everything they want - it is monitored. Jou kno wha I'm sayin'??

I'm not sure what questions I didn't answer....but if one of them was "can give an example of something deliberate that the coalition has done that isn't justified?"......well, that simply comes down to me thinking the war isn't justified (but that's a whimpy answer). I guess I'd say the support of certain groups in the Middle East. The provision of weapons and training to both Iraq AND Bin Laden (didn't the US create Al Quada to fight Russia?). The abandonment of Afghanistan after a promise was made to them before they fought the Russians. The same abandonment the US did to the Kurds after they used them to fight. THAT is why they were gassed, by the way - the Kurds supported/were supported by the US and went against Saddam (which was a good thing) and Saddam was punishing them in his sick way. These are the same Kurds who are now asking for gas masks (because they are not stupid this time), yet the US is refusing them the masks because I feel they want the Kurds to get hit again, thus making Saddam even more a monster. If the US had supplied the Kurds with masks in the first place, this "attack on his own people" would never had been such a big deal. The US Government didn't keep a promise (once again) and should step up and admit it and stop trying to blame others for the misfortunes of those they promised support to. If they are going to police these lil' bastard countries, at least do what they promised when they butt their noses in others business. Don't hand people weapons, money and military support and then pull out when the war is won, leaving them poor, desolate and feeling anger and expect them not to react or harbor hatred when you promised that you would fully support them from start to FINISH. Duh!

Let's be honest here. You asked me what would justify that gas attack. The Kurds opposed Saddam and supported America. What should people do to those who oppose them? I think every war supporter knows the answer to that. Saddam gassed them because they turned their backs on him and started supporting/being supported by the "enemy", the US. Kurds were "The US" to Saddam, there should be no suprise he gassed them. Was it right? No. Was it something that happened "out of the blue" because Saddam is nuts? No.

Like I said, let's be honest - Saddam had to test those weapons somehow if he ever planned on using them against a real enemy. How do you test weapons/drugs, etc normally? By putting it on the people. Let's be honest again, we all know the public are just a bunch of numbers to the Governments of the world. If he was going to test those weapons on anyone, why not his opposition? Makes sense to me. America kills it's own people every day. They approve drugs that shouldn't be approved (Phen, Phen, certain types of Breast Implants, etc, etc). How many times have we heard about this drug or that drug killing X amount of Americans and these drug companies get sued? It's enough. America has the death penalty, which is punishment for breaking laws. The Kurds broke one major law (don't oppose Saddam - stupid law, but it's there) and they faced the death penalty. We can only speculate how many American die each year from food additives, smokes, bad drugs, etc, etc. How many Kurds died? I'm guessing not even close to the amount who die each year in America from things the Government can prevent and if it can be prevented, the blame should lie on those who could prevent it.

I know those many not be answers to some because it makes the US look bad - but every answer can't make the US look good, sorry.

I'm so not anti-US or pro-Saddam - but I just can't sit back and watch the US Government lie and try and make it look like they are angels all the time. It takes two to tango. People don't hate for no reason and the US Government has to admit they did things to create said hatred - and it's not "living the Western Lifestyle" or "being free". America has been bad......not as bad as Saddam, not even close - but they are not smelling of roses either.

944SBoyeee

Please, call me Tom.

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I'm not really "comparing" reality TV/advertising to news......they are different beasts in many respects, but the end result is that WE view the finished product. I'm not saying the news is all smoke and mirrors......but those who provide the news are in control of what is reported - meaning, just because we see it on the news, doesn't always make it true. News stations don't just run out and put on everything they want - it is monitored. Jou kno wha I'm sayin'??

Fair enough. There is an entertainment aspect to news, and almost all the news outlets are owned by like 4 companies. I don't think "monitored" is the correct word, that kind of has a George Orwell tone to it.

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I'm not sure what questions I didn't answer....but if one of them was "can give an example of something deliberate that the coalition has done that isn't justified?"......well, that simply comes down to me thinking the war isn't justified (but that's a whimpy answer). I guess I'd say the support of certain groups in the Middle East. The provision of weapons and training to both Iraq AND Bin Laden (didn't the US create Al Quada to fight Russia?)

No, we supported the Mujahideen after the Soviet invasion. The Taliban came a little later as an offshoot of this, as I understand it. Some details here. We did to the Soviets the same thing the Soviets did to us in Vietnam. In the context of the Cold War, this made perfect sense. We helped the Mujahideen by billing it as a holy war, which brought radical Muslims from all over the world. I think it is safe to say at the time we had no idea how bad an idea that was. It is also interesting to note that most of the Mujahideen fought on the side of the northern alliance against the Taliban. Bin Laden faught in Afganistan against the Soviets, but didn't create Al Queda until later, to fight Israel and western influences in Arab countries. Having American infidels being in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War is what put him over the edge completely. Some background here.

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The abandonment of Afghanistan after a promise was made to them before they fought the Russians.

Exactly what did we promise them, and was this before or after the people in charge (the Taliban) started calling us the Great Satan? You know, the fine folks who without our help would be vassals of the Soviet Union.

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The same abandonment the US did to the Kurds after they used them to fight.

We screwed the pooch on that one. My understanding of it is we expected after the humiliating loss in the first Gulf war, Saddam's power would be weakened to the point that he would be overthrown by the Sunni's and Kurds. Unfortunately we were wrong, and the Kurds/Sunnis took it in the ass.

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THAT is why they were gassed, by the way - the Kurds supported/were supported by the US and went against Saddam (which was a good thing) and Saddam was punishing them in his sick way.

Wrong. The Kurds were gassed in March 1988. We didn't try to get them to revolt until the Gulf war in 1991, nearly 3 years later.

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These are the same Kurds who are now asking for gas masks (because they are not stupid this time), yet the US is refusing them the masks

I am going to wave a preliminary BS flag on this one. I think that would make the mainstream press if it was true. Got a cite for this?

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because I feel they want the Kurds to get hit again, thus making Saddam even more a monster.

You can't be serious. What is this rediculous assertation based on?

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If the US had supplied the Kurds with masks in the first place, this "attack on his own people" would never had been such a big deal. The US Government didn't keep a promise (once again) and should step up and admit it and stop trying to blame others for the misfortunes of those they promised support to.

Again, this happened while we were still on relatively good terms with Iraq, even after The USS Stark incident in March of 87.

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If they are going to police these lil' bastard countries, at least do what they promised when they butt their noses in others business. Don't hand people weapons, money and military support and then pull out when the war is won, leaving them poor, desolate and feeling anger and expect them not to react or harbor hatred when you promised that you would fully support them from start to FINISH. Duh!

Ok, so you are saying if we would have let the Soviets kill them off everything would be fine?

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Let's be honest here. You asked me what would justify that gas attack. The Kurds opposed Saddam and supported America. What should people do to those who oppose them? I think every war supporter knows the answer to that. Saddam gassed them because they turned their backs on him and started supporting/being supported by the "enemy", the US. Kurds were "The US" to Saddam, there should be no suprise he gassed them. Was it right? No. Was it something that happened "out of the blue" because Saddam is nuts? No.

The chronology is still wrong. Even if this was the case, your argument is absurd. Following the same reasoning, it would be perfectly acceptable for the National Guard to fix bayonets and attack the peace protestors in San Francisco. After all, they are a bunch of wannabe Marxists/socialists who oppose the actions of the US Government.

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Like I said, let's be honest - Saddam had to test those weapons somehow if he ever planned on using them against a real enemy. How do you test weapons/drugs, etc normally? By putting it on the people. Let's be honest again, we all know the public are just a bunch of numbers to the Governments of the world. If he was going to test those weapons on anyone, why not his opposition? Makes sense to me.

Now you are REALLY reaching. The US has Chemical weapons left over from the cold war, and so do the former Soviets, among many others I am sure. Who were all those weapons tested on? Certainly not villaiges full of women and kids.

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America kills it's own people every day. They approve drugs that shouldn't be approved (Phen, Phen, certain types of Breast Implants, etc, etc). How many times have we heard about this drug or that drug killing X amount of Americans and these drug companies get sued?

Bad examples, The Phen Phen thing is a joke, both of those drugs have been safe for years by themselves. It is only when they are used in combination (which they were never tested/approved for) were there problems. As I understand it, our prescription drug approval process is one of the more difficult ones. I know there are medicines you can get in Canada (or Europe) that I can't get here.

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It's enough. America has the death penalty, which is punishment for breaking laws. The Kurds broke one major law (don't oppose Saddam - stupid law, but it's there) and they faced the death penalty.

So you equate the attack on a village with nerve gas to execution of violent criminals? Wow. I don't even know how to answer that.

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We can only speculate how many American die each year from food additives, smokes, bad drugs, etc, etc. How many Kurds died? I'm guessing not even close to the amount who die each year in America from things the Government can prevent and if it can be prevented, the blame should lie on those who could prevent it.

Even if your this line of reasoning made sense (which it doesn't), Nothing you listed is mandatory. All those items are choices, you choose to smoke, you choose to take drugs, you choose to get big fake boobs. Nobody is forcing these things on anyone.

The Kurds certainly didn't choose to get gassed.

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I know those many not be answers to some because it makes the US look bad - but every answer can't make the US look good, sorry. I'm so not anti-US or pro-Saddam - but I just can't sit back and watch the US Government lie and try and make it look like they are angels all the time.

So what was the lie again? I must have missed it.

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It takes two to tango. People don't hate for no reason and the US Government has to admit they did things to create said hatred - and it's not "living the Western Lifestyle" or "being free".

People certainly do hate for no reason. Look at the former Yugoslavia. People hate each other there for crap that happened centuries ago. Look at Northern Ireland. Those jokers hate each other for following slight variations of essentially the same religion.
I won't even get into anti-semitism.

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America has been bad......not as bad as Saddam, not even close - but they are not smelling of roses either.

So what is your point? We haven't attacked or threatened our neighbors. We don't torture dissidents. We contribute the lions share of the UN budget. We bail the rest of the world out when they have problems.

Iraq started a war, which it lost. Part of the conditions of the cease fire were limitation of certain weapons, and allow inspections. They have not complied. They had 12 years to comply, and they haven't. The UN Security councel even says they are in breach. Clinton should have done this 5 years ago when they kicked the inspectors out, but he was too busy playing hide the cigar with his intern.

Tom

Everyone knows where I stand... Chaney is a clown, his company will be bankrupt by the time Bush's rule has come to an end.. so, who cares...I despise the supression of people, We should just re-write the book on IRAQ and start over after we bomb the living crap out of them.. period, there are no Innocent deaths.. there are accidents... oh there's accidents that also occur when you steal Military laundry and blow someones head off while wearing it, so a camaera man can record it and blame the original owners of the uniforms... Iraq Sucks, they can ALL kiss my a$$. that's how I feel about it.
I work with a Kurdish guy, everyday I sit and have coffee with him, he is a rug weaver, he restores antique rugs. He has told me disgusting stories of how everyone is living in fear, noone is healthy, they have horrifying living conditions there and averyone hates Hussein. This guy is so grateful to be in this country that he can't really find words to describe himself, he's intelligent is well spoken and knows what he's talking about.. He has enlightened me as to what Saddam is all about. He is worse than Hitler ever could have been, he mutilates people in the streets.. he told me of a story where a young girl refused an arranged marriage because the suitor was abusive. Well, the local authorities got wind of it and had a public mutilation. They cut her Clitorous off.. wtf!? YOu have no freedom there, women are urinated on defacted on and spit on if a man "divorces her. they also have the daily "Beatings to death" as entertainment.... it's inhumane.. those who wanted to leave have left, most of the people that are there want to live that way because they don't want the freedom to make there own decisions because they don't know how to... so, they'll probablly be grabbing guns and taking shots at our military as they're walking down the streets and will probablly wind up as Innocents that died in this war...

Frank B

Just a sidebar on Canada, from The Ottawa Citizen:
You can read the rest of the article here:
http://www.canada.com/national/features/iraq/story.html?id=8F23DDCC-8908-43A2-9764-FFADE4373886

Tom

Tom.....

Thank you for the informative and insightful post. I love having any info thrown my way, as it will obviously make me a better informed. The tone of your post was very "light" and I feel you were actually talking to me, rather than lecturing or "fighting with me". This tone made me read your reply with a more open mind.

I'm glad you admitted the US has made the odd mistake in the past.....now I know I'm not dealing with someone who is too extreme in their support of everything American, which is a good thing.

I've pretty much given up trying to argue the points I support. Saddam is just TOO evil to try and argue anything against the US's actions. His evilness overrides any suspect activity by the US. My stance now is.."So what if America is trying to take over the world (or something like that) - I'd rather have them do it than say Saddam, Korea or someone else!!". I will always be watching the actions of the US Government because I really do feel there is more to the picture than meets the eye.....and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist......I just feel like something is going on in the world that perhaps the common man/women will never be privy to, something that is in development. Something that is so special. I just feel that.

So, I say - "go troops - kill that evil Saddam and his regime - take the oil, take the country, liberate the people, disarm them, do whatever the hell it is you are over here to do - I really don't give a rats ass anymore - I have bigger problems in my own house to worry about".

I will point out one thing though.......Breast Implants, smokes, drugs, etc are not our choice. Advertising - social exceptance - and the quest to be bigger and better, cooler and smoother, smarter and sexier is what the world has basically boiled down to. These factors have forced people to do things that are unhealthy, immoral and unnecessary. I don't know a lot of people who actually "choose" to smoke. People rather just keep smoking because they are addicted and justify it by making it look like they "want" to be smoking. Who in the world really "wants" to cough and choke and smell and eventually die from it?

I guess I'm just very disappointed that we live in a society where women "choose" to get implants to boost their self-esteem, when self-esteem is an inward development thing that should not be fixed with surgury. It upsets me that people of today run to the drug store for EVERYTHING when there are other solutions that don't pad the pockets of a few. I guess my questioning of things stems from the poor quality of how the world is right now and how much people are degrating into self-centered, cut-throat, vain, greedy and overall "bad" humans. I guess I'm just missing the "love" and hating the reality of how things have progressed in a world I feel could be so much better. I want solutions to THIS problem and I feel wars, foreign policies, and internationally-based processes don't really move towards this, but rather are taking away from what we should really be focussing on.

944S Boyeee

Well this is heated....Tom you have some valid points, but I think they get lost in the way you pose them. Opinions and free speech are what democracy is all about, but when someone gets spoken down to because they pose an opposite opinion, it doesn't work.
I'm against the war and I hope other countries don't jump on the Iraq bandwagon and make it WWIII. This is all I'll say on this. And by the way don't insult Canada, I think the intent was to put down the US Government, not the Country or it's people.