some have seen the truth

[stray15]

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/o...3/23/do2305.xml

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)


I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the **** out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.

[turbo6bar]

I frequently exchange emails with a cousin in Vietnam. I occasionally ask her about world events and affairs. You'd be surprised how she dodges my questions out of fear of getting in trouble. Now, if my cousin is scared to tell me her private feelings in a somewhat private email, I can't imagine how some Iraqi citizens feel. Get these people in private and speak to them face to face, without a government thug standing at their backs, and then and only then will you hear their true feelings.

I discount the fact Iraqis are not welcoming us in open arms, because if the US does not TOTALLY remove the regime, these citizens risk enduring a cruel death. Don't believe me? You do NOT know the real world.

That, my friends, is why I give unwavering support to the US cause. We are not perfect, but it's as close as it can get. I feel fortunate to live where I can speak my mind and argue my opinions, yet still have the personal experience of knowing how bad it really can be.

Jürgen

[island911]

This Iraqi thing is so much like Nazi Germany. Reports of discusting human torture leak out, but are quikly discounted by those whom are afraid of the costs of facing the dictator.

Good post, stray! . . .we'll wait for the nay-sayers.

[stray15]

Originally posted by island911

Good post, stray! . . .we'll wait for the nay-sayers.

thats funny, no responses from them...suprised?

[944S Boyeee]

I watched this guy from Iraq (he is the Middle East expert for the Pentagon - Hussan somethink I think) and his statements reflected what was said above.......

....but when Peter Jennings said, "So, the people of Iraq are pro-war, hate Saddam and are happy the Americans are here?", this fella said, "No, it's a strange circumstance.......if you gave any citizen a gun, they would take no greater joy in killing Saddam themselves, BUT they still hate the Americans.........it's a very double sided hatred". This confused Jennings (what a suprise!). He couldn't understand why the Iraqi people would hate Saddam, but not be happy the US was taking care of him. I think this confuses a lot of people. It makes sence that if the Iraqi hate Saddam, that they would support America.....but according to this Middle East expert - that is not he case. The above text only showed how much the people of Iraq HATE Saddam - I think everyone with a brain already knows this.

I also believe that most "anti-war" protesters are not protesting to SUPPORT Saddam and/or his regime (I don't think anyone BUT Saddam supports his regime), it's to NOT support the US Governments decision to approach this situation in this way.......why doesn't anyone understand this? If you're "anti-war", it doesn't mean you're Pro-Saddam or Anti-America or Anti-American troops - it just simply means you don't support the WAY this war unfolded and/or you suspect the Bush Administration's motives may be suspect, that's all.

[island911]

I think it is unreasonably hopeful or naïve, to think the majority of Iraqis will like the fact that Brit's and Americans have done the job they could not.
They will be no more thankful than the French, for there liberation from the Nazis.

Let's just make certain that we don't turn around and give Iraq some sort of UN "victorious nation" pity prize. They would surely use it to screw us, just as the French have.

As to ""anti-war" protesters are not protesting to SUPPORT Saddam "
It is overtly obvious that the goal (of the "anti-war" protesters) is to use this situation to find fault with Bush.

NONE of you said a peep when Clinton was lobbing cruz-missles at Saddam. NOT A peep!

[944S Boyeee]

Interesting point......

Nobody did care what Clinton was doing.

Then came 9/11.........

Nobody cared before Pearl harbour either.

Does this mean 9/11 and Pearl harbour HAD to happen? Yes.

944S Boyeee

[emcon5]

I have no problem with people who are opposed to war. This is America, and the Bill of Rights is still in effect.

The problem I have is it seems like most of these assclowns don't seem to care one way or the other, they just want to cause trouble. They seem like the same professional twits that cause problems at WTO meetings. Nothing says peace and love like a good old fashioned fire bomb.

If you want to protest, fine, go nuts. It is all well and good that you don't have anyplace else to be in the middle of a weekday (like God forbid an actual job), but don't keep people who are just trying to get to work from getting to work by blocking traffic.

The other thing is, when asked, the war protestors don't have a clue what they are talking about. They don't offer solutions, they just shout slogans.

"Give peace a chance!!!" When asked "A chance to do what exactly?" you get blank stares, and the faint sound of crickets chirping from somewhere behind their vacant eyes. There is some great video here:
http://brain-terminal.com/video/nyc-2003-02-15/index.html

It happens a lot when the defenders of the undefensable are presented with facts counter to their position. They just ignore the arguments, and keep up the party line somewhere else. Here is a good example.

Tom

[944S Boyeee]

Here are some facts to counter a postion......

1. Saddam has not threatened the US
2. Iraq is, in no way, connected with 9/11
3. There has been no real proof that Iraq possess weapons of mass destruction
4. Most of the World opposes this war
5. "War for Peace" just doesn't have a good rhythm to it.

So, should I expect to hear some crickets chripping now?

944S Boyeee

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by emcon5
"Give peace a chance!!!" When asked "A chance to do what exactly?" you get blank stares, and the faint sound of crickets chirping from somewhere behind their vacant eyes. There is some great video here:
http://brain-terminal.com/video/nyc-2003-02-15/index.html

Hmmm, according to those protestors Bush is Hitler without the mustache. I wonder how much hemp these people use on a daily basis??? What a bunch of mucking forons!!! If Bush is Hitler, these people need to go to live in a Communist country. After all, there's no way a Communist country could possibly be worse than living under Hitler...

Jurgen

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by 944S Boyeee
Here are some facts to counter a postion......

You presented facts, so how can I respond...

What you posted were opinions.

Jurgen

[emcon5]

Originally posted by 944S Boyeee
Here are some fact to counter a postion......

1. Saddam has not threatened the US

Wrong. See "lendady's" list of Saddam quotes here

2. Iraq is, in no way, connected with 9/11

You are correct (as far as is currently known), but Saddam supports terrorist activites by overtly paying families of suicide bombers in Israel. He may not overtly attack the US, but there are others who share his common enemy who certainly would. Remember, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

3. There has been no real proof that Iraq possess weapons of mass destruction

What proof do you need? They admitted it, they haven't produced evidence of its destruction, they used it on Iran and the Kurds. NOBODY is disputing this except you. Even the French admit they have them, they just dont think it is worth going to war over.

4. Most of the World opposes this war

Most of the World doesn't care because it doesn't affect them either way. A handfull of countries are vocal in their opposition (France, among others), and some are quiet in their support (Poland, among others).

5. "War for Peace" just doesn't have a good rhythm to it.

What would you call WW2?

On that note, I am going to make a prediction. In the next few months, things are going to come to light that have been going on in Iraq that make Joseph Mengele look like Captain Kangaroo (944boyee you may want to do a web search so you understand that reference).

So, should I expect to hear some crickets chripping now?

Well, they are still chirping in the other thread where you wowed us with you brilliant insight, and then ran away with your tail between your legs.

See my response to your comments here, and show me where I am wrong.

My guess is more crickets.

Tom

[944S Boyeee]

I cannot reply to those "answers" because they only seek to make EVERYTHING happening in this war justified.

I know that Saddam MAY have weapons (he sure is firing off a lot of nukes right now and the American troops are all full of chemicals....NOT! - but seriously, he may have them), and I know Saddam is "terror-related" and I know Saddam is bad. I have swallowed the pill and except the fact that all the "antiwar" arguements are not solid. Why can't you except the fact that there may be some bad points to what the American Government is doing?

At least be a man and admit that someone else may actually have a point.....and a clue. You know, I don't need to do "web searches" to learn things......I'm Canadian, we actually study other cultures in our schools.

Insult my intelligence all you want - it still won't make you any smarter - and that's not an insult about your intelligence level. I can separate someones intellect level from their opinions. I suspect you to be quite smart.....I may not agree with your opinions, but I don't let that allow me to form an opinion on how smart you are. See, I'm not THAT dumb!

944S Boyeee

[Z-man]

Welcome back, 944SBoyee!!!

I do agree with you that the US government doesn't ALWAYS do EVERYTHING the right way. Especially when it comes to war, right and wrong motives are often difficult to discern. As you know, I am all for the USA using military force to oust Saddam from Iraq. I believe we are doing the right thing. HOWEVER: I have a hard time with the fact that VP Cheney's company is the choosen one for helping rebuild the oil infastructure in Iraq: I think that will become a egg in your face situation for the Bush admin.

Well, that's all.

-Zoltan.

PS: Please change your avatar: I'd appreciate that.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by 944S Boyeee
I cannot reply to those "answers" because they only seek to make EVERYTHING happening in this war justified.

I never said everything in the war is justified. I am saying that the war itself certainly is justified. If you can give an example of something deliberate that the coalition has done that isn't justified, I am all ears.

I know that Saddam MAY have weapons (joke snipped)

Again with "may." Iraq has Chemical and Biological weapons. Everyone knows they have them. Nobody is saying they don't have them, except Iraq. If they have no chemical weapons, why would they need all those chemical warfare suits and all that atropine in the hospital Iraq was using as a military base? You can bet that given enough time, they would have nuclear weapons as well.

and I know Saddam is "terror-related" and I know Saddam is bad. I have swallowed the pill and except the fact that all the "antiwar" arguements are not solid. Why can't you except the fact that there may be some bad points to what the American Government is doing?

I do accept that fact. I just haven't heard anything yet that is a bad point. All I hear is "Bush is like Hitler," "No war for oil," "give peace a chance." and "can I interest you in some literature on how wonderfull Marxism is?" and, no, I am not kidding. You can watch a video from the San Francisco "peace" protests here. Yes, this is the same "peace protest" where the police found molotov cocktails.

If you are interested, there is more Iraq reading here: US State Department fact sheets May I suggest you start with "A Decade of Deception and Defiance," it gives a chronology of Security Council resolutions for the past decade, and how they have been voilated. You can then read more about the gassing of Kurds (you know, with the weapons they "MAY" have), and how swell they treat women.

At least be a man and admit that someone else may actually have a point.....and a clue.

I will admit others have a point, when they have one (you may notice I agreed with you on point #2). As to the clue, I generally give people the benefit of the doubt, but your comments in the other thread and your continued use of the word "may" regarding Iraq's chemical weapons even when provided with evidence doesn't seem to support this assertion. I am waiting to be proven wrong.

You know, I don't need to do "web searches" to learn things......I'm Canadian, we actually study other cultures in our schools.

Insult my intelligence all you want - it still won't make you any smarter - and that's not an insult about your intelligence level. I can separate someones intellect level from their opinions. I suspect you to be quite smart.....I may not agree with your opinions, but I don't let that allow me to form an opinion on how smart you are. See, I'm not THAT dumb!

The "do a web search" comment was out of line. I am sorry for that.

However, it does not excuse this:

Originally posted by 944S Boyeee in another thread. (emphasis mine)
Regardless of whom Saddam gassed - I agree that it was wrong. I guess I just question why he really did it and if that reason is a valid enough one and/or do those action represent Saddam's desire to fund Terrorists and/or attack America? I mean - do his actions during that situation reflect enough "madness" or is it something that had to be done for a particular reason other than just the pure madness?

I ask again, what exactly would be a valid reason to launch a mustard gas and cyanide attack on a village full of women and children?

Tom

[racea911]

944S Boyeee said: Why can't you except the fact that there may be some bad points to what the American Government is doing?

- None of us would deny that there may be some bad points to what the American Govt does. Your arguments sure have gotten watered down lately. It wasn't long ago that all you could do was spout off nonsensical conspiracy theories. Those posts are why none of us can take you seriously now. Maybe you should change your name to reflect the weakening of your arguments. May I suggest 944S Boyee Lite as a new name?

944S Boyeee said: I'm Canadian, we actually study other cultures in our schools.

- Yeah, since you are Canadien, you would need to study OTHER cultures in order to be studying a culture. You want to insult our country? We can do the same, but we can actually back it up. I can see where you would have so much pride in your historical, economic, political, social, military and cultural "powerhouse" of a country. ROTFLMFAO!

I have to say that I am surprised that someone who "has it all figured out" and is as "intelligent" as 944S Boyee Lite is, wouldn't be called McLaren F1 Boyee or 911 Twin Turbo Boyee instead of 944S Boyee. Get my point without me starting an inter-Porsche model owners battle?

[thamlin000]

Good point racea. We all know intelligent people drive only Mc Larens and 911TTs.

I've have to agree with Z, change that avator Boyee.

To everyone: Support our troops or be banished to france.

[racea911]

Come on thamlin000, you know what I am semi-jokingly implying. If the guy is that exceptional, to have figured out what the rest of us Porsche owners can't comprehend..... well nevermind, I'll let it go.

[944S Boyeee]

I thought everyone would like my Avatar, after all - it is making fun of Saddam......oh well.

racea911 - thanks for solidifying my views on how American's (well, some at least) view other Countries. If you knew ANYTHING about Canada, you would see how entrenched in culture and history we actually are......and I never insulted your country, just pointed out the fact that World Geography/History isn't exactly the American school systems jewel.

Let me give you an example. I was in Florida a few years ago. I know enough about Florida (capital, where it is on the map, major exports, etc, etc) and was talking to a nice Floridian who worked at Arby's. When I pulled out a Canadian $10 (it's Purple, by the way) to pay, this nice person said, "What's that - it looks like Yosemite Sam money" - followed by, ".....is it real???". She went on to ask, "Where are you from in Canada?. I said, "Nova Scotia". She said, "Nova Scodia - is that near Toronto?? And the clincher....."Is it always pure ice up there?" I thought nothing of this at first. I thought perhaps an Arby's worker wasn't a fair representation of the American people.

Then I went to "The World's Biggest Flea Market" (my mom loves em'), and ran into the same ignorance from almost all the vendors. Again I thought I may be in the wrong place to find the American's who do respect other countries differences......nope!! It was like that everywhere I went.

Do you know how that makes a guy feel? I honestly felt like Canada wasn't even on the map. Up until that exact moment in my life, I never questioned anything about America. They always seemed friendly and such.....but after living the ignorance, I actually kinda was mad and disliked the attitude. It was like I finally talked to the mother of a girl I had been dating for 15 years and the first thing she says when she meets me is, "What was your name again?".

I could go to any state in the US and at least know where the state is in conjunction with the other states. I can at least tell you the capital, and I have a general "feel" for each state and how it is different from the other states in culture, history and overall "style". If a visitor from America came into my work, they wouldn't leave feeling rejected or ignored.

As for me "having it all figured out" - well, that is soooooo not the case. But I do think my "conspiracy theories" are not that far out in left field, so yes - I do think there is a possibility I may be correct. If I didn't really think what I believe to be true, I wouldn't believe it.

You see, we live in a world of deception. If you watch Survivor, they cut and edit the show to make you think something is happening that really isn't. Viagra is deception. Every women who wears make-up is deceiving others. People "pad" their resumes. In the early 70's - people were fooled into thinking leaded gas was ok. Older cigarette ads actually said smoking was good for you. There are fibers that "look and feel" like cotton. MacDonalds "100% pure beef" - well, we all know that not true. There was a company a few years ago that was called "Fat Free" - that was the company name - so their Yogart was "Fat Free", at least we all thought it was. "Spin Doctors" are a plenty and P.R. companies are some of the biggest companies in the world.

My point is I just feel it is ignorant to not consider all the facts, stories, ideas, etc, etc - especially when it comes to the Government. If society is all about deception, we can only imagine what the Government could be doing with thier resources.

As Mark Twain said....., "Do not fear the enemy, for your enemy can only take your life. It is far better that you fear the media, for they will steal your HONOR. That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoemaking and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poorhouse."

.....as for me not having "FI Boyeee" or "911 Boyeee" as a name......well, if that's a slight on me not being smart enough to afford a 911, then that's the saddest thing I've heard in a while. If you mean I'm not smart for owning a 944, as opposed to a 911 or F1 - then check this link out......

http://www.toystoremotorworld.com/allused.asp

This is my uncles dealership. I have driven a lot of the cars on this lot, even the Ferrari and the only car I would take over my 944S is perhaps the Mercedes Benz SLK230 Kompressor. That's says a lot about the 944S. I wouldn't be able to afford the Mercedes right now (I must be too daft) - but that is basically because I had a guy murder two people, (then shot himself) in a bar I used to own. Needless to say, I lost a somewhat large amount of money due to this unfortunate event. I was informed that my insurance would cover me closing the bar for a few months to clean up and take some time to re-group. I had the bar closed for 3 months and lost close to $100,000 after the insurance didn't cover me during that down time. Needless to say, I'm rebuilding....so perhaps FIBoyeee is still in the works.

944S (and proud of it) Boyeee

[island911]

Originally posted by 944S Boyeee
I thought everyone would like my Avatar, after all - it is making fun of Saddam......oh well.

. . .

Yeah, I got it. The bigger pic of him was "stand alone funny"
. . . once it got down to the avitar level resolution, much was lost.

How 'bout zoom the gogles, at include a title:

'ROID RAGE'n Mr.McGoo