Will the Real twin Cam Come forward ?
 

I do believe it has a reputation based and clouded by the fact most these bikes are hardly ever ridden.
What is my point?
I was dwn at the local independent shop the other day getting a part for the HSR 40.
*A Twin Cam was on the operating table with its guts from inside the timing cover all splayed out all over the place.
I know the shop owner pretty well and as we were talking he said almost every one of the Twinks needs a heart transplant by 30K
Cams , pumps, bearings ETC!
Yet if I ask most people about the TC reputation it comes back pretty good!
So I got to thinking after my trip out west last week.
My Buddy had me take a ride on his Twin Cam soft tail.
I forget what year it was (OLD) but it had only 7K miles on it!
My brain fired off a thought!
Most all these bikes have been bought by the Bucket Kicker folks!
No miles on them, Trailered everywhere.
If you ever ride to Sturgis it is like a Convoy, a parade on the way there.
The last 500 miles is spent passing towed bikes! Miles of them being towed to Meca.
This Generation that bought a Harley just to say they own one has no clue what is in the mail once that odometer flips a few more zeros.
In truth, they will not ever get that far.
I am thinking HD dodged a pretty big bullet!
The Real Twin cam has yet to be discovered!
Perhaps it never will be as these will all soon be sold and taken care of buy a different crowd.
The true deficit will never make a big splash as it should have.
Hd walked away with the biggest sales event in their history producing the worst engine ever.

* he showed me the cams and they were literally almost ground off on the backside where it fits in the bearing.

I never had a single issue with the TC in my ‘06 Electra Glide. Had just under
30k on it when I sold it last year to a buddy and got a new Road Glide. It has 7k flawless miles on it so far.

Don’t get me started on towing, the most ironic is when I see a bagger being towed, why buy a touring bike if you aren’t going to “tour”?

Sheer and utter bullschitt. My 2000 Road King died with 116,000 absolutely trouble free miles on it when it got run over by the F250. My riding buddy has over 100,000 similar trouble free miles on his 2003 Heritage Softail. I've met several riders out on the road with over 200,000 miles on their early Twinkies who have done nothing more than change fluids, tires, and brake pads.

Anything can be abused or neglected by a fool. Unfortunately, modern H-D's seem to attract more than their fair share. Maybe because it has become so "accessible" through their vastly increased reliability and relative lack of maintenance requirements. When I started this game, one really had to know one's machine to even think about riding out of view of one's house. When that changed, a whole different kind of rider found they could do it with no mechanical peril whatsoever. When the constant need for daily attention went away, it opened the door for those who pay no attention. Those of us who still understand that these are machines in need of at least some love and attention will get hundreds of thousands of miles out of them.

My experience is that a bike with 30K on the clock is like a car with 100K. Not that they can't or won't go further trouble-free miles but the expectation is different. I happen to think in stock form the twin cam is a very good power plant. Certainly a step forward over the Evo design.

Some of the best current aftermarket hot street / racing engines are based on the TC platform. I also know that if you plan on running the h3ll out of it, add cams and RPM's there are a few deviations from stock cam chain / oiler setup that need addressed.

I dont think it is total BS jeff-
And I know you would stand right up and promote HD.
But do try to be objective here-
I have walked into this shop and seen a lot with the right side torn open.
He said he turns away business as it is more than can handle.
I just never asked too much about them as I don't own a Twink.
On top of that, I know many have a TIR crank problem causing this havoc I am told.
I saw a twink last Summer that actualy busted the timing cover bolts because the crank was wobbling so bad!
Next, we know Vendors exist advertising a cure, like welded cranks and etc.
Also, there is another group selling gears rather than chains (S&S)
Fueling sells some remedy also.
There is a large number of vendors selling parts for an imaginary problem?
I don't think so.
So whilst you may have had no problems many have.

I base my assessment on my first hand experience, and the experiences of others whom I have observed first hand. Granted, kind of a small sample, but in it I have seen 100% reliability.

I also remember back in the early Twinkie days, when I was dumb enough to ride with the local HOG chapter. We had literally hundreds of members on the books, and probably a few dozen who actually showed up. Most didn't ride much, but many rode even more than I did. Most had the then new Twinkies, and were only HOG members who had received membership when they bought them. In that much larger group, I never heard of a single mechanical failure, outside of some of the infamous rear cam bearing issues, which H-D repaired under warranty.

And yes, indeed, there are plenty of manufacturers who absolutely make bank by selling products that "fix" non-existent problems. Especially in this day of the internet, where we see each and every "problem" magnified by internet forum types who ride their keyboards more than they ride their bikes.

The timing chest problems seem to only occur when running hotter cams. With the hotter cams, riders then rev the motor higher as well, which coupled with the increase in lift and heavier valve springs, put more stress on the cam drive. The cranks suffer as well when subjected to higher than stock revs. And somehow this seems to be a "quality issue" with H-D...

As with any hot rod motor, if everything is not done right, the weak links will soon be exposed. There is no shortage of riders who will put hot cams in it, maybe some Screaming Eagle heads, re-chip it to raise the rev limit and, if they are really industrious, put a big bore kit in it. All with stock cam drives and stock cranks. Then they proceed to hammer the bejesus out of them and wonder why they have problems. POS Twinkies... :rolleyes:

04-06

Think that was about when Harley was trying plastic cam chain tensioners.


Bought a road king last year for seven grand because my wife wanted something we could ride together and I thought they couldn’t possibly get any cheaper.

But I’m seeing them for around six now.

I don't think it is because they are a twink at all, the market has been flooded.
The Bucket Kickers can't even trailer theirs anymore. (slight exaggeration but that is where it is going)
Sales are dwn as there is no one to sell to-but that is another story.
I have seen baggers going for as low 4K!
Back to tmy twink biotch - If I remember correctly the fact manual allows 0.009 crank TIR now.!!
Gears would not work very well with all that wobble going on.
That is way out of the allowable 003.5 (1.5 ) each direction they used to dictate as in the specs.
So they allow loser crank standards.
I have no idea which years are worse than others.
I know they stopped using the Timken on the crank main bng, which was a bean counters ploy to save two cents.
That was for sure a mistake.

All in all the Twink was the largest continuous run HD has ever done.
Now they sit with no one to ride them, and this gets worse every day as all the owners are getting older.
That's my opinion and you all are allowed to disagree.

I thought this thread was about a fake/fraudulent Porsche engine. Not being a motorcycle guy I didn't know what a "twinkie/twink" was? So I googled twink motorcycle.

I didn't like what the search returned. I am not going to delve into this any further. I will leave now.

Did you search result show a certain Fed Ex pilot?

Now back on topic...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1567110738.jpg

TIR on 2007 and earlier Twinkie cranks is .002", from 2008 on it is .004". This is when still in the V-blocks used for trueing. In the crankcase the TIRs double, but now the crank is supported by roller bearings, which do move a bit. The TIR tightens up once again once the cam plate is in place, as it serves to support that end of the crank.

Where did you get your information on the bearing supplier change? And what makes Timken so special? I spec'd out a lot of roller and ball bearings over the course of my career. Timken ain't the only game in town, and not necessarily the best, either.

I think 2002 was last year for the Timken -it, of course, is tapered.
That bearing and style was used for years with no crank problems
When they cut corners on the timken the specs became loser.
As an engineer of sorts you do recognize all that I am sure.


https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/se-timken-bearing-sleeve

https://www.bearingsinc.info/timken-bearings-for-harley-davidson.html

https://www.hdtimeline.com/threads/cam-bearing-failure.35873/

2 articles above post and the Four below
We could spend all day posting stuff that has plagued the twinks



https://www.baggersmag.com/twin-cam-engine-chain-driven-cams-and-twisting-crank#page-6

https://www.lawabidingbiker.com/73/

http://bsgautomobile.com/harley-davidson-twin-cam-crankshafts/

http://www.hotshotmotorworks.com/didja_know.htm

Yes, you can indeed spend all day posting that kind of stuff. Pick a product - any product - and you will have no trouble finding countless internet "experts" eager to disparage it.

To be objective and I try to be-
You just do not find an Evo or shovel with out of phase cranks.
This anomaly happens a lot with the Twink.
I do not think page upon page of internet information about the problems of the Twink can be all wrong.
One has to sift for the truth.

Again, all of the problems you attribute to the Twinkie only begin to manifest themselves in high performance applications. In its stock configuration, it has proven to be far and a way the most reliable, long lived H-D Big Twin to date. By a considerable margin. Comparing Shovel or Evo reliability and longevity to that of the Twin Cam is laughable. I've owned all of them at one time or another. Nothing preceding the Twin Cam even came close.

You will notice that the "page upon page or internet information" is almost entirely people repeating something they heard, with no first hand experience. Seems way too many denizens of the internet are eager to demonstrate what they "know" - it's the nature of the beast. Before you know it, these things become "common knowledge", and take on a life of their own, and people with no knowledge or experience become even more eager to repeat it, so they can present themselves as "experts".

I'll take my real world, first hand experience and that of my riding partners over that kind of nonsense any time. My first Twin Cam was the most trouble free vehicle I have ever owned, on two wheels or four, and my second one is shaping up the same way.

Well,- HD itself, in fact, does sell those silly "stage Kits" for them!

Yes, they do market those infernal "stage" kits, and make bank doing so. They make their bikes what they should have been to begin with. No other company leaves enough on the table that they can pull this kind of bull schitt. Thank God none of those "stage" kits add any real performance, or they would really be in trouble. More marketing b.s. for gullible Twinkie (and Milwaukee Eight) riders - on that, I think we can whole-heartedly agree.

Agreed.
Stage kits are for those that are clueless.
They would not know 45 deg seat from a 4.5 stroke.
Just sell it to me please and promise I will go fast...
Argh argh argh

Looking at different years of twinks -not to buy, just to school myself.
Some come with cam bearings?
Some dont.?
Some come with piston pin bushing, some don't.
No bearings or bushings is for sure a bean counters idea and dream of saving a penny here and there.

Hopefully, they dont do that crap to the already infamous M8

LOL!

Oh look, HD garden gnomes:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/shop/c/goods-garden-gnomes

Harley guys seriously call them twinks?

Along with the leather and unbalanced 45 degree engines... This explains so much

If triumph (and lot others) can make sell a bike @ profit this side and slightly tp the other side of 20K-
it would seem HD could make a bike including bearings rather than taking the sleazy cheap way out.

Looking at the New Rocket 3 -is 3 cylinders, H20 cooled shaft drive and 22K!

Pretty SNAZY!

Harley with their Ivory Tower objective lost their way when they got rid of the V Rod Platform.
Willie had them all set up for the up and coming generation.
The Skinny Jean crowd wants nothing to do with tractor parts.
They are not caught up in history and in fact, most fo them don't know anything about the Second World war!
They have a zero for allegiance to America, patriotism or Nostalgia .

Had HD kept the Vrod and expounded on it they would have a couple other platforms or even different ones to choose from.
They sold their heart and soul to make the last couple bucks on the ageing V twinn.
Now they have blank faces and no sales and a huge gap in marketing.
IDC if they live or die, it is just sad to see how members, not owners, can direct a company dwn the road to suicide.

I think they are right to go after the electric bike market, but a $30k halo bike is not going to make inroads with the kids.

And don't me going on the 'Street'....wtf is that monstrosity supposed to be?

I actually really like todays Sportys. The 48 is cool.

Harley's biggest threat for the future may be those rentable electric scooters all you see all over college campuses. Many kids don't want to own vehicles, and that applies to motorcycles as well. Same with Uber.

My point is -Unless the presiding stockholders don't take off their Ivory crowns real soon they will not have a table to convene at.
Too may people can crank out an electric bike overnight. The new generation does care whose logo is on the side of it.
We old guys will gargle with Bull shet with hornets in it B4 we get on such a vehicle.

+1

It is an ardent term for them ...Not at all what you are trying to imply.
Twink is short for twin Cam.

Well for sure the twink does not take near the testosterone to start it as an old kicker will!.

In fact any idiot can operate the more modern cycle.
Gone are the days when the WW2 guys road the real hardtails with no rear springs at all, and kick it to start or just dont go.
They had to make the things work!
Now the riders cant even check the air in the tires.
Pretty sad.
In the 70s we as group could do everything and it was a pretty good click.
To my surprise, not everyone was / is that way!
Nowadays,- it is talk about the wax they use.
A zero for mechanical knowledge, very disappointing. (most)
They have not a clue , none what so ever.
SO maybe they are Twinks....in some respects , not all, but for sure they are shallow at the hobby.
They for sure are a bore to talk to.

One of the oldest Harley traditions is for riders of older models to denigrate riders of newer models as being somehow inferior. I guess it makes them feel better about themselves. If you ride a Panhead, Shovelheads are no more than AMF "bowling balls". If you ride a Shovelhead, they were the last "real" Harley. Evo riders try to convince us that Twinkie riders are no more than a bunch of clueless RUBs who don't know a spark plug from a spoke wrench. And of course now they all think the Milwaukee Eight is the biggest "POS" Harley has ever made.

I well remember all the fun we had when the Evos came out...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1598485900.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1598485900.jpg

Stereotypes and generalizations contribute nothing worthwhile to the discussion. I know (and ride with) plenty of guys who could completely disassemble and repair their Twinkies on the side of the road with the tools in their saddlebags. I know (and ride with) Evo riders who still have their bikes dealer serviced, and can't top off their own oil when out on a ride. And vis versa.

The only real delineation I have seen is when we get back to the Shovelhead, Ironhead, Panhead, and older model riders. By the very nature of those machines, one absolutely must be a competent mechanic to even dare ride one. It was when the Evos came out that Harleys finally got reliable enough that anyone could ride one and keep one around. That's when the RUBs starting flocking to them in droves. It hasn't been the same since...

quote- It hasn't been the same since...

Yup aint that the truth

I think this discussion has gone off into the ditch. I agree with a few of the technical and marketing points above, I'm not in with the rest of the stereotype. If the Evolution engine had not happened, with chassis improvements, rubber mounted drivetrains when the did, HD wouldn't be here today. As far as the RUBS, if it wasn't for their huge $$$$ into the sport, especially aftermarket high- performance parts HD wouldn't be here today either.

I could not agree more. To me, it's a wonderful sport and all are welcome, regardless of what they ride. it's more important that they ride... I can not imagine where our sport would be today without that massive influx of new riders, of guys and gals who simply could not - or would not - put up with the old machines. Our voice has grown because of them, both as far as what the market now demands with regards to reliability and performance, and with regards to our position in the political and regulatory worlds. We are in a better place now than when I started riding. A much better place.

And yes, Harley simply had to improve to survive. I, for one, am quite happy with the improvements made during my lifetime. Riding my '76 XLCH hot-rod one day, then my '13 Road King the next, serves as a very real reminder, to me, of just how far they have come.

Can someone summarize the technical side of this for a person who might be considering a used HD?

What years constitute EVO vs Twin Cams?

What are the known technical flaws with the Twin Cam that should be addressed?

As the years went past Harley deleted more and more bearings and bushings, to the point of even getting rid of small end rod bushings!
YIKES!
They even got rid of the huge timken on the crank end!
Something that worked well for HD for a forever (this alone caused huge problems)
The engine became a bean counter wet dream.
However, the aftermarket has made good with Harley pressed cranks crap, with known scissor prblems.
(out of phase)- where one flywheel is not correctly on top of the other if they were that close but seperated by the crank pin.
Also-
The run out of the crank and TIR has created an industries of its own!
The old 5 pice cranks never had these problems!
Between Harley and aftermarket, there is prolly a 1/2 a dozen cures for their silly cam plates.
Chains, gears, belts, clear covers to moniter the didaster, etc etc
The Cranks develop or come with all sorts of allowable runout now compared to the 0.003 in the beginning.
The geared oil pumps get wobbled around so much they chew th inside of thier surface cannibalizing themselves!
The inner cams bearin ends get all ate up too
Now some people get the lucky with one here and there or have few miles on it and theink they have A WINNER.
I know jeff will refute all this, But there are several Harley shops here (as there) .
One can walk in any of them and always find a twin cam with the cam chest or more being fixed on the operating table .
TOO another thought harley tourted the twin cam a BE the "All that" in their marketing. Anything with a single can was just that old and an antique.
Gues what?
Thier newest engine the M8 went back to one cam!
Argh argh argh
Next-
At some pont harley will/ would, could have made it to the adjustable varible cams for the twink-But S&S did it for them ! LOL
Shall i go on?
So the twink can be made bullet proof with the right stuff.
This includes a welded crank ! with near zero run out.
No worries -the Evo came with a few problems too!
like th e round rather then tapered pinion end on the crank .
From the University of Hard knocks I can tell you that little fingernail end of a key will not hold a large bump stick with Hipo springs !
The extra force will shear it off! (and the cam timeing cause a small conflict in piston to valve area...)
There is really only one cure as that tiny nut that holds the cam drive gear in place just won't do it .
Shall I go on?
PS i used to work in a HD shop in my younger dumber days ...And true, some problems come from customrs themselves.
In closing here -No manufature that wants his pruduct to work well will delete bearing and bushings just to save a dang panny here and there.
Yet Harley has done it along with the other travisties of death wobbles .
We just had a fatality on the freeway here -Brand New bike as in under 500 miles. Witnesses say "death wobble" an into the guardrails.
Petty sad.

Go for it Jeff.

The only issues the Twin Cam ever had were in the first few years with the rear cam bearing. H-D offered a free fix for it, effective as long as the original owner owned the bike, and for 40,000 miles regardless. I believe the issue was fixed for good by about '03 or '04. Any 96 or 103 cubic inch bike will be just fine, and any 88 inch bike with the updated rear cam bearing will be just fine as well.

Other than that, there have been no issues. My story is not uncommon - I have several riding buddies who have gone well over 100,000 miles with no issues, and stories of 200,000 trouble free miles on Twin Cams are quite common.

And no, H-D did not eliminate the small end rod bushings nor the big end roller bearings. The camshafts are supported on one end with a roller bearing and on the other with a bronze bushing - this has been H-D practice for years. My '76 Sportster has the same arrangement. It's nothing new. H-D have not eliminated any bearings or bushings, as this unfounded internet rumor indicates.

H-D did, in fact, open up the tolerances on the Twin Cam crankshaft runout. They only did this after having determined that their previous tolerances were unnecessarily tight, leading to increased manufacturing costs for no gain whatsoever. Of course every independent (read: can't get a job at a dealership) mechanic, every amateur mechanic with a Youtube channel, every self proclaimed "expert" on every H-D forum on the internet has decried this move because, well, you know - they know better than H-D engineers. It has proven to be an absolute non-issue.

The bottom line is the Twin Cam has proven, in 20 years of use since its introduction, to be the most robust, trouble-free, most durable platform they have ever produced. I would buy any well maintained, "adult owned" example without any worries whatsoever. There simply are no "known issues" outside of the cam bearing discussed above.

More to your question, anything Evo is now long in the tooth, but cheap. Twin cam has been around long enough that those should be below market as well. The new engine is the Milwaukee 8 and that is a few years old. Unmodified performance-wise of any of these engines are the best bet if you're in the market.

Jeff, I just double-checked- Yup, no wrist pin bushing about 2006 and forward.
Don't kill me, I researched this from an out post-repair shop that does unofficial Harley Repairs.
The rods with the weird taper at what would have been the bushing area are the ones, albeit they dont have too many roblems because of their lack.
Still No bushing there.

The no timkins, out of phase cranks, and endless cam plate problems are real.
You may have escaped the bullet.
I am happy you did.

Real easy to skew dyno numbers by manually inputting’ ‘corrected’ ambient air temp, atmospheric air pressure, when the load comes in, run the bike in 4th gear instead of 5th, etc.

If I remember correctly there was a company called Davinci that essentially sold a part to install in S&S carbs that looked similar to a Holley carb Venturi fuel discharge ‘ring’. It was garbage as it severely disturbed / blocked air flow. To prove it made more HP they posted the dyno chart in the magazine ad. At the bottom the air temp correction was like 30 degrees F.