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-   -   Engineering whoops of the day (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1040423-engineering-whoops-day.html)

varmint 09-18-2019 01:16 PM

Engineering whoops of the day
 
Spain builds submarine 70 tons too heavy after putting a decimal in the wrong place

HARTFORD, Conn. — A new, Spanish-designed submarine has a weighty problem: The vessel is more than 70 tons too heavy, and officials fear if it goes out to sea, it will not be able to surface.

And a former Spanish official says the problem can be traced to a miscalculation — someone apparently put a decimal point in the wrong place.

“It was a fatal mistake,” said Rafael Bardaji, who until recently was director of the Office of Strategic Assessment at Spain’s Defence Ministry.

The Isaac Peral, the first in a new class of diesel-electric submarines, was nearly completed when engineers discovered the problem. A U.S. Navy contractor in Connecticut, Electric Boat, has signed a deal to help the Spanish Defence Ministry find ways to slim down the 2,200-ton submarine.

The agreement with Groton, Conn.-based Electric Boat calls for Spain to pay $14 million over three years for an assessment of the problem with the S-80 submarine program and the scope of the work that would be required to correct it, the Spanish Defence Ministry said in a statement to The Associated Press.

Bardaji, now a senior fellow with the Strategic Studies Group think-tank in Madrid, said officials will review options provided by Electric Boat. But he said the preference has been to extend the length of the submarine’s hull, perhaps by 5 to 6 metres, to increase buoyancy.

Otherwise, the weight of the submarine would have to be reduced, and he said the Spanish Navy would not want to compromise features such as the combat system or an air-independent propulsion system.

The Isaac Peral, named for a 19th century Spanish submarine designer, is one of four vessels in the class that are in various stages of construction. The country has invested about $2.7 billion in the program. The first was scheduled to be delivered in 2015 but the Spanish state-owned shipbuilder, Navantia, has said the weight problems could cause delays of up to two years.

The 233-foot-long submarine will carry a crew of 32, along with eight special forces troops, and weapons systems for surface and anti-submarine warfare.

The Defence Ministry said technical problems are normal for projects of this scale.

Apparently somebody in the calculations made a mistake in the very beginning and nobody paid attention to review the calculations.
“The technology challenges that these programs face during development are much more than simple calculations,” the ministry said. “All the major military programs, especially submarines, have experienced delays and often have required the support of a technology partner.”

Bardaji said the problem was discovered in the second half of last year, and Navantia told defence officials that somebody had apparently put a decimal point in the wrong place.

“Apparently somebody in the calculations made a mistake in the very beginning and nobody paid attention to review the calculations,” he said.

Electric Boat, the primary contractor for the U.S. Navy’s fleet of nuclear submarines, accepted the contract through a foreign military sales agreement between the American Navy and the Spanish Defence Ministry, the U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command announced this week.

Electric Boat, a division of General Dynamic Corp., has helped other countries with their submarine programs.

It began assisting with development of the Astute-class nuclear attack submarine for the British Royal Navy in 2003, and it is working under another foreign military sales agreement on Australia’s Collins class of submarines.


https://o.canada.com/news/spain-builds-submarine-70-tons-too-heavy?fbclid=IwAR1D1Zrs_Xg0FCGsJR6SIXSQDc0oKlOQAEE JD6gB6uUXOrfWlJtjIeZSYuE

BK911 09-18-2019 01:32 PM

Those dang decimal points.

cmccuist 09-18-2019 01:36 PM

Why does Spain need a fleet of submarines?

sammyg2 09-18-2019 01:36 PM

They can be pesky. Really pesky.
decimal points I mean. Not Spaniards.
Or submarines.
Decimal points. Pesky.

sammyg2 09-18-2019 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist (Post 10596816)
Why does Spain need a fleet of submarines?

So they can check out the french air force? ;)

varmint 09-18-2019 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist (Post 10596816)
Why does Spain need a fleet of submarines?



It’s a big world full of evil. And maybe someday soon America will get sick of protecting Europe.

Jolly Amaranto 09-18-2019 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist (Post 10596816)
Why does Spain need a fleet of submarines?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/60AjI1pIzVQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

brainz01 09-18-2019 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist (Post 10596816)
Why does Spain need a fleet of submarines?

<div class="tenor-gif-embed" data-postid="5067789" data-share-method="host" data-width="100%" data-aspect-ratio="1.2755102040816326"><a href="https://tenor.com/view/spanish-inquisition-spanishinquisition-gif-5067789">Spanish Inquisition GIF</a> from <a href="https://tenor.com/search/spanish-gifs">Spanish GIFs</a></div><script type="text/javascript" async src="https://tenor.com/embed.js"></script>

RWebb 09-18-2019 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmccuist (Post 10596816)
Why does Spain need a fleet of submarines?

Because the Armada got wiped out in a storm

herr_oberst 09-18-2019 03:24 PM

Would this be as bad as forgetting to convert feet to meters? Asking for a friend...

Sebscst 09-18-2019 05:36 PM

If they want it to lose weight they should just hire us pelicans that obsess over every ounce on our 911.

porsche4life 09-18-2019 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebscst (Post 10597030)
If they want it to lose weight they should just hire us pelicans that obsess over every ounce on our 911.

They just need a few different sizes of hole saw and some kegs of beer and we will come add some lightness for them.

dafischer 09-18-2019 06:23 PM

And screen doors.

93nav 09-18-2019 06:30 PM

You are forgetting the pizza.

But, it is probably water cooled, so, meh.....


Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche4life (Post 10597052)
They just need a few different sizes of hole saw and some kegs of beer and we will come add some lightness for them.


Bugsinrugs 09-18-2019 07:22 PM

So just move the dam decimal point back where it belongs....simple.

Crowbob 09-18-2019 07:27 PM

You'd think somebody would have noticed an extra 14.0000 pounds of submarine lying around.

Bill Douglas 09-18-2019 08:48 PM

I think it would be an ideal purchase for the Russians, as a replacement for the Kursk.

ckelly78z 09-19-2019 02:10 AM

Fat people need not apply for duty !

KFC911 09-19-2019 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbob (Post 10597105)
You'd think somebody would have noticed an extra 14.0000 pounds of submarine lying around.

LOL...yer just the man they needed CB!

GH85Carrera 09-19-2019 04:50 AM

As someone that know as much about submarine designs as rocket design, one has to wonder how no one noticed the error. Since it was never launched, and it be fixed or is it just going to be scrap?

70 tons is 140,000 pounds of "extra" weight. What did they do, make it armor plated? If the skin too thick? I am just glad it is not my tax dollars for once that were wasted.

sammyg2 09-19-2019 05:22 AM

Make the weight match the displacement to achieve neutral buoyancy.
Loose the weight or increase the displacement by around 2300 cu. ft.
Larger ballast tanks would do it, think gurney bulge ;)

Heck, they could just stretch it a little like they do with them limo-zeens.

KFC911 09-19-2019 05:28 AM

There is nothing wrong with that sub that LOTS of Morton Salt can't fix ;)...

pavulon 09-19-2019 05:40 AM

Smokey would acid dip it.

gordner 09-19-2019 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2 (Post 10597344)
Make the weight match the displacement to achieve neutral buoyancy.
Loose the weight or increase the displacement by around 2300 cu. ft.
Larger ballast tanks would do it, think gurney bulge ;)

Heck, they could just stretch it a little like they do with them limo-zeens.

Larger ballast tanks would not do it. They would have to increase the displacement of the hull, ballast tanks do not do that. The entire interior could be ballast tanks, if the hull ways more than the water it displaces it is only going down.

Noah930 09-19-2019 10:13 AM

They needed some of those women from that movie, Hidden Figures.

Or maybe just my 9th grade science teacher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2 (Post 10597344)

Heck, they could just stretch it a little like they do with them limo-zeens.

Can that even be done? A ship has a keel, right? Once the keel has been laid (and I presume construction has gotten that far, already), can a ship be modular enough that you can just splice in another x amount of hull (and keel) to increase its displacement? The article mentioned adding length to the vessel, but I'm sure it's not as Lego-simple as that.

sammyg2 09-19-2019 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordner (Post 10597587)
Larger ballast tanks would not do it. They would have to increase the displacement of the hull, ballast tanks do not do that. The entire interior could be ballast tanks, if the hull ways more than the water it displaces it is only going down.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568916803.jpg

I was thinking external ballast tanks, like the ole torpedo bulges from dubya dubya II which I kinda referenced via the gurney bubble thing.
But I Didn't quite write what I was thinking.

KFC911 09-19-2019 10:18 AM

Morton Salt...with enough salt in the ocean that sub would be a boat....I'm just sayin' :).

sammyg2 09-19-2019 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah930 (Post 10597620)
They needed some of those women from that movie, Hidden Figures.

Or maybe just my 9th grade science teacher.



Can that even be done? A ship has a keel, right? Once the keel has been laid (and I presume construction has gotten that far, already), can a ship be modular enough that you can just splice in another x amount of hull (and keel) to increase its displacement? The article mentioned adding length to the vessel, but I'm sure it's not as Lego-simple as that.

Dunno. Mongo only pawn ... in game of life.

I've never built a submarine but I figure there's nothing simple about it at all no matter what yer doing.
A guy who used to work for me served on the Dallas in the reactor room, he told me that the difference betwixt a hunter/killer and a boomer is that they cut the middle of the HK and splice in a bunch of missile silos to create a boomer.
prolly a little more to that too.


But like dad said in his memoirs .......
Quote:

I am convinced that anything can be accomplished if enough time and effort are devoted to the task.

sammyg2 09-19-2019 10:27 AM

Just checked, the interwebs says no keel so it would be easy-peasy.
They couldn't put it on the internet it it weren't true. :rolleyes:

Hope this ain't top secret ....


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568917633.jpg

Sooner or later 09-19-2019 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavulon (Post 10597357)
Smokey would acid dip it.

Quality post.

sammyg2 09-19-2019 10:33 AM

Looks like they build em in pieces

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568917939.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568917939.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568917939.jpg


I think this one is on the take-apart and not the go-together:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568917939.jpg

gordner 09-19-2019 12:16 PM

They are built a lot like airplanes, and I don't think it would be a huge feat to add hull sections. obviously easier in the design stage lol.
Sammy, I missed your part about gurney bulge or I likely would have understood what you meant.
As to similarities, they do not just stick in a missile section. The goal of a hunter killer and a boomer are very different, and thus so is the design in many ways. The Los Angeles class hunter has a beam of 33 feet, the Ohio class boomer is 42.

Noah930 09-19-2019 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordner (Post 10597798)
The Los Angeles class hunter has a beam of 33 feet, the Ohio class boomer is 42.

Dude, just slice down the middle and add in 9 feet of hull. Done.

sammyg2 09-19-2019 02:00 PM

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568930437.jpg

Sooner or later 09-19-2019 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2 (Post 10597900)

That and a bunch of these.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568930740.jpg

rfuerst911sc 09-19-2019 02:20 PM

Don't forget the Flex Seal as a final layer of protection over the duct tape :D

sammyg2 09-19-2019 02:22 PM

See, we got this.

varmint 09-19-2019 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC911 (Post 10597626)
Morton Salt...with enough salt in the ocean that sub would be a boat....I'm just sayin' :).



Dead Sea fleet.

Scott Douglas 09-19-2019 03:48 PM

Ya gotta give 'em credit for finding the mistake BEFORE they launched it.

pete3799 09-19-2019 03:55 PM

Isn't a submarine supposed to go down?


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