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-   -   What if the Cops put a Tracker on your Car? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1045722-what-if-cops-put-tracker-your-car.html)

RWebb 11-21-2019 03:59 PM
What if the Cops put a Tracker on your Car?
 
you find it, take it off

and then they charge you with theft....


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/11/21/police-hid-tracking-device-suspects-car-then-charged-him-with-theft-removing-it/

Jims5543 11-21-2019 04:20 PM
A smart man would have put it on another random car.

KFC911 11-21-2019 04:23 PM
^^^^ ....a random cop car :)

Jim Richards 11-21-2019 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 10665460)
Hey, they gave it to you...it’s yours to do with as you wish.

wilnj 11-21-2019 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 10665535)
When placed with a warrant, it's not the owner's decision to remove it. If he gets a drug charge they may slap him with evidence tampering.

Disclaimer: I'm not police nor a lawyer.

How does he know it’s been placed legally? I assume it didn’t say that it was Police Property?

I would have thought obstruction of justice would have been the more appropriate charge but neither addresses the issue above.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

widgeon13 11-21-2019 05:46 PM
"The case dates to July 11, 2018, when deputies in the southwest Indiana county applied for a warrant to track Heuring’s vehicle, believing he was using it to deal methamphetamine. A judge granted permission, and police placed the magnetic tracker on the vehicle July 13."

Article seems to say it was all done legally.

The guy is a POS if he is selling meth!

masraum 11-21-2019 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jims5543 (Post 10665488)
A smart man would have put it on another random car.
ding, ding, ding. Have them follow grandpa, a traveling salesman, or better yet, a UPS truck.

masraum 11-21-2019 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Richards (Post 10665494)
Hey, they gave it to you...it’s yours to do with as you wish.
That's my thought. If anyone puts anything on my car and I drive off with it, then they "gave it to me" so it's now mine.

wdfifteen 11-21-2019 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by widgeon13 (Post 10665596)
Article seems to say it was all done legally.
It may be placed legally, but is taking it off illegal?
I can see a lot of possible reasons why not:

You don’t know it was placed by the police
You don’t know if it was placed legally by the police
You didn’t even know what it was
You weren’t the person who removed it

masraum 11-21-2019 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by widgeon13 (Post 10665596)
"The case dates to July 11, 2018, when deputies in the southwest Indiana county applied for a warrant to track Heuring’s vehicle, believing he was using it to deal methamphetamine. A judge granted permission, and police placed the magnetic tracker on the vehicle July 13."

Article seems to say it was all done legally.

The guy is a POS if he is selling meth!
Yes, cops did it legally and by the book, and the guy's a dirtbag that deserves time...

BUT if I find something on my car, I'm taking it off. I have no way to know if it's legit. My hypothetical crazy ex-girlfriend could have bought some crap from China on ebay that says "police property".

Also, just because we know he's a dirtbag doesn't mean that we can throw due process out the window. Then is it OK to plant drugs on him or a gun because know that he's a dirtbag?

The police just knew that the guy at 1000 Kensington Court was a dirtbag and busted in his front door and when he jumped up off the couch with the remote and a spoonful of icecream in his hand, they shot him. Oops, the dirtbag lived at 1000 Kensington Place and watches TV with a gun in his lap.

madcorgi 11-21-2019 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 10665460)
Interesting question, Randy. I wonder, though, why they didn't get a warrant to GPS track his phone? Maybe he used burners or knew enough not to carry it.

I'd be arguing the exact same thing as his lawyer is, since it's a pretty long stretch from a theft warrant to finding the drugs.

red-beard 11-21-2019 06:15 PM
The smart move on his part would have been to remove the tracker and toss is randomly out the window. Then it "fell" off.

But back to the story here. The second warrant for "stealing the tracker" is pretty stupid. I expect this is going to get all of the evidence against him thrown out.

rusnak 11-21-2019 06:26 PM
Boonville Ind. police chief is a idiot, and so is the District Attorney.

1. They are creating case law that protects people from police surveillance. No way is the court going to say that you have an obligation to leave a GPS tracker on your car. They can charge him, but he's going to win that case.

2. Police are letting every perp know their surveillance techniques. This is not something that you want to do, and therefore not worth pursuing the charge.

3. "Theft" will not be proven, and the perp has not even been charged for the actual activity that they obtained the warrant for. I would argue that the warrant did not give the police a right to charge the guy for theft, only for drug dealing. To the taxpaying public, this looks like a Chinese fire drill and sh**show funded lavishly with tax dollars, to the embarrassment of the rest of the police department. That has got to be demoralizing for real cops.


Should have never gotten that far.

Arizona_928 11-21-2019 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcorgi (Post 10665626)
Interesting question, Randy. I wonder, though, why they didn't get a warrant to GPS track his phone? Maybe he used burners or knew enough not to carry it.

I'd be arguing the exact same thing as his lawyer is, since it's a pretty long stretch from a theft warrant to finding the drugs.
My guess is they don't have the money, or tech to do real time phone surveillance. Hence gps tracker.

madcorgi 11-21-2019 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ_porschekid (Post 10665728)
My guess is they don't have the money, or tech to do real time phone surveillance. Hence gps tracker.
You're probably right. But . . .That tech is coming right along, though, and will get cheaper and cheaper. Throw in a grid of cameras (plus a few hovering overhead at all times), a little AI, and enough storage and processing capabilities, and you can build a virtual time machine that the authorities can all use--and share across jurisdictional and state/federal boundaries--to track each and every one of us every second of our lives.

Don't worry, though. Be happy . . . and smile--you're on camera. A bad attitude will hurt your Federal Social Value Score.

KevinP73 11-21-2019 11:51 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jr3rPt3CUZU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

sc_rufctr 11-22-2019 12:20 AM
^^^ Interesting video.

If I found a GPS Tracker on my car I'd be calling a lawyer ASAP.

But I'm not a POS Drug dealer or criminal so...

sc_rufctr 11-22-2019 12:36 AM
I thought this may be be of interest.

It's about a local underworld murder that has been heavily reported on since it happened in 2012.
Phone data and status evidence played a big part in the investigation.

All of the mobile phone were left at the staging house before the event.
Why not leave their phones turned on at home? Burner phones have always been cheap and easy to obtain.
I'm betting these guys aren't very bright.

It seems the police have complete and unrestricted access to mobile phone tower data.
I'm sure the data was obtained legally after an appropriate warrant was granted but...

How long are providers expected to keep this data?

The video is short but has more details.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GxSbWjIwNiQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Porsche-O-Phile 11-22-2019 01:11 AM
I think shipping it in a package to South Africa or affixing it to a long-haul, over-the-road big rig might’ve made for some good entertainment... oh well, opportunity lost. I guess drug dealers these days aren’t as humorous as they used to be.

sc_rufctr 11-22-2019 01:41 AM
So if you removed it and they never found it again how could they prove they ever put it on your car in the first place?

I think the law would be in favour of the criminal in this case.

svandamme 11-22-2019 02:34 AM
I don't see how they can turn this around on the perp,
Warrant allows em to do something, but if they don't communicate their warrant to the perp, the warrant itself cannot be used against the perp for anything he did about the thing they did.

Let's say they have a warrant to search your house.
They come at night, in the dark, unmarked cars
They barge through your front gate, they break open the door
They do not yell "police , we have a warrant"

And the owner of the house dumps a 30 round mag of 556 out of his AR and kills 2 cops before they shout "police, we have a warrant"

And it's all on body cams.


There is NO way you can get convicted for that, you are defending your house against an unknown invader.

Same with this surveillance thing.
Perp was not informed of the warrant.
it was done covertly.


Any lawyer worth his salt should be able to squash that charge in court, appeals or higher.
Better Call Saul

ckelly78z 11-22-2019 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jims5543 (Post 10665488)
A smart man would have put it on another random car.
A meth dealer doesn't usually qualify for being a "smart man".

GH85Carrera 11-22-2019 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 10665877)
I don't see how they can turn this around on the perp,
Warrant allows em to do something, but if they don't communicate their warrant to the perp, the warrant itself cannot be used against the perp for anything he did about the thing they did.

Let's say they have a warrant to search your house.
They come at night, in the dark, unmarked cars
They barge through your front gate, they break open the door
They do not yell "police , we have a warrant"

And the owner of the house dumps a 30 round mag of 556 out of his AR and kills 2 cops before they shout "police, we have a warrant"

And it's all on body cams.


There is NO way you can get convicted for that, you are defending your house against an unknown invader.

Same with this surveillance thing.
Perp was not informed of the warrant.
it was done covertly.


Any lawyer worth his salt should be able to squash that charge in court, appeals or higher.
Better Call Saul

Have you not seen the thread about 5 cops shot in Houston. The cops had a liar call in the hose as a drug house, the cops LIED about buying drugs there, and then lied about seeing a gun, and lied big time saying the owner shot back with s 357. Magnum. No 357 was ever found!

In the end, they smashed in (no knock warrant), shot the dog, and killed the homeowner, and his wife, and shot 5 of the cops as they did it, and then lied their asses off as a coverup.

Two cops are going to jail, and lots more need to join them.

svandamme 11-22-2019 06:22 AM
well if they went to jail, clearly the law agrees that they can't get away with everything

GH85Carrera 11-22-2019 07:42 AM
But two innocent home owners are dead, and the police chief is still lying is butt off about it.

It is very unlikely it was an isolated event.

If I found a GPS tracker on my car I would just put it under the tire, and drive over it, and leave it on the street.

nota 11-22-2019 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 10665877)
I don't see how they can turn this around on the perp,
Warrant allows em to do something, but if they don't communicate their warrant to the perp, the warrant itself cannot be used against the perp for anything he did about the thing they did.

Let's say they have a warrant to search your house.
They come at night, in the dark, unmarked cars
They barge through your front gate, they break open the door
They do not yell "police , we have a warrant"

And the owner of the house dumps a 30 round mag of 556 out of his AR and kills 2 cops before they shout "police, we have a warrant"

And it's all on body cams.


There is NO way you can get convicted for that, you are defending your house against an unknown invader.

Same with this surveillance thing.
Perp was not informed of the warrant.
it was done covertly.


Any lawyer worth his salt should be able to squash that charge in court, appeals or higher.
Better Call Saul
IF you survive !,
a very unlikely outcome after the home invasion by pigs with shots fired
the pig will claim some BS and charge you with murder#1
you spend years in jail no bond ,
lawyers will bankrupt you
the pig will find evidence [they planted] to convict you

legion 11-22-2019 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 10666208)
I haven't seen a comment here about the fact that the tracker was found in a locker on the suspect's parent's property in a locker, in a barn. Certainly an overt act. Does that change things? I mean there's no way he can say it fell off or it wasn't ever there. Those options were available until he took it off and placed it in the locker. Now he's tampered (removed) with a police owned device legally attached to his vehicle.
I don't see how anyone is under obligation to keep something like this on their car, and subject to criminal sanctions if they don't. It just doesn't make sense. It's not like there is a law or court order commanding a person to keep a police tracker in place.

doug_porsche 11-22-2019 08:56 AM
I have one question and one observation..

Question: What marking did the tracker have on it? Was there any markings that said, at the extreme lower end of excuses, if found, place in mailbox return postage guaranteed.

If I find a black box stuck to my car, with no markings, yep I would take it off.


Observation: they are charging him with theft of their tracker. Did they ask for it back? Can they, giggling as I type this, not locate it?

Tobra 11-22-2019 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 10665877)
Let's say they have a warrant to search your house.
They come at night, in the dark, unmarked cars
They barge through your front gate, they break open the door
They do not yell "police , we have a warrant"

And the owner of the house dumps a 30 round mag of 556 out of his AR and kills 2 cops before they shout "police, we have a warrant"

And it's all on body cams.


There is NO way you can get convicted for that, you are defending your house against an unknown invader.
You would not be convicted of anything, you would be shot to death, resisting arrest.

onewhippedpuppy 11-22-2019 09:05 AM
This sounds to be one decent lawyer away from being thrown out of court.

gatotom 11-22-2019 09:17 AM
About 3 months ago a local was charged a felony for putting a tracking device on his soon to be divorced wife.

Don't know where he got it but his Dad is in the sheriff reserves.

Jim Richards 11-22-2019 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 10666208)
I haven't seen a comment here about the fact that the tracker was found in a locker on the suspect's parent's property in a locker, in a barn. Certainly an overt act. Does that change things? I mean there's no way he can say it fell off or it wasn't ever there. Those options were available until he took it off and placed it in the locker. Now he's tampered (removed) with a police owned device legally attached to his vehicle.

BTW, this thread start as a topic on a tracker and discussion. Bringing the Houston affair into this with talk of murder and getting derailed is going to get this thread closed or cleaned up if you guys can't keep on track. I haven't decided. Your call.
This was dumb. Taking it off and leaving it on the ground without fingerprints would’ve been the approach to take.

Jim Richards 11-22-2019 09:30 AM
Zeke, the bracelet is for crimes committed. The tracker is for crimes that have not yet been committed.

madcorgi 11-22-2019 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 10665850)
^^^ Interesting video.

If I found a GPS Tracker on my car I'd be calling a lawyer ASAP.

But I'm not a POS Drug dealer or criminal so...
That's even MORE reason to call your lawyer . . .

madcorgi 11-22-2019 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 10666302)
Since you didn't read the news article linked in post no. 1, I'll tell you that the police lost track of the signal, got a 2nd warrant to search 2 properties and found the tracker secured in a locker in a bathroom within a barn. I don't think it walked in there on its own. See, that's been my point. There are an infinite number of ways that this GPS tracker could have been removed and 'lost' but there was only one way it ended up off the vehicle and in a locker. There is nothing more deliberate as that.

I have no idea how the court(s) will see this but I can see how and why the police are treating this as a counter measure to their intended surveillance that was approved by the legal branch.

I know it's not quite the same, but rather than bring up some situation that has nothing legally in common with this, how about someone who has been ordered by the court to wear a tracking device? The difference, of course, is that the wearer is very aware of the order. But I don't see the covert action any differently than tapping a phone (covert) or an overt action such as the ankle bracelet.

This is tough one to keep apples to apples. And I'll admit I'm not even qualified to judge this. It's all opinion until the gavel hits the wood.
I bet we have a bunch of those folks right here on Pelican!

Like most legal questions, there is no easy clear cut answer. I suspect this is a case of first impression. Notice none of the lawyers are jumping in with an opinion. I always get a kick out of the question: "is it constitutional?" The correct answer is generally the one everyone hates: it depends.

masraum 11-22-2019 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 10666208)
I haven't seen a comment here about the fact that the tracker was found in a locker on the suspect's parent's property in a locker, in a barn. Certainly an overt act. Does that change things? I mean there's no way he can say it fell off or it wasn't ever there. Those options were available until he took it off and placed it in the locker. Now he's tampered (removed) with a police owned device legally attached to his vehicle.
The problem is that if you find an unidentified device on your car, how do you know it's "a police owned device legally attached to his vehicle?" If I find something on my car, did a crazy homeless guy stick it there after removing it from some other car or finding it in the street, Chinese spies, a prankster at work, an old girlfriend, a mad bomber...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legion (Post 10666225)
I don't see how anyone is under obligation to keep something like this on their car, and subject to criminal sanctions if they don't. It just doesn't make sense. It's not like there is a law or court order commanding a person to keep a police tracker in place.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_porsche (Post 10666253)
I have one question and one observation..

Question: What marking did the tracker have on it? Was there any markings that said, at the extreme lower end of excuses, if found, place in mailbox return postage guaranteed.

If I find a black box stuck to my car, with no markings, yep I would take it off.


Observation: they are charging him with theft of their tracker. Did they ask for it back? Can they, giggling as I type this, not locate it?
It seems from some of the info that there was no indication that the device was a police device.
They got a warrant to search and found the device.
they couldn't find the device because it was in a locker (presumably metal) which blocked the signal. But that's funny stuff.

masraum 11-22-2019 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Richards (Post 10666299)
This was dumb. Taking it off and leaving it on the ground without fingerprints would’ve been the approach to take.
Yep, no fingerprints, and on the ground in the middle of the city or in a storm drain or in the middle of the freeway.

masraum 11-22-2019 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 10666302)
Since you didn't read the news article linked in post no. 1, I'll tell you that the police lost track of the signal, got a 2nd warrant to search 2 properties and found the tracker secured in a locker in a bathroom within a barn. I don't think it walked in there on its own. See, that's been my point. There are an infinite number of ways that this GPS tracker could have been removed and 'lost' but there was only one way it ended up off the vehicle and in a locker. There is nothing more deliberate as that.
Which would make tons of sense if the thing was marked so you had any idea who's it was or who had put it there. If I go into a store and come out and someone has left a diecast model of a ferrari on or in my car and no one is around, I figure it's mine. I could leave it, I could take it with me, I could smash it on the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madcorgi (Post 10666364)
I bet we have a bunch of those folks right here on Pelican!

Like most legal questions, there is no easy clear cut answer. I suspect this is a case of first impression. Notice none of the lawyers are jumping in with an opinion. I always get a kick out of the question: "is it constitutional?" The correct answer is generally the one everyone hates: it depends.
Actually, there is a video by a lawyer farther up. The same lawyer also has an interesting article and video on the Road and Track websit about dashcams.

Bill Douglas 11-22-2019 10:43 AM
Slip it down the back of the seat in a taxi then deny everything. If someone (anyone) is out to get you don't do them a favor.

Rinty 11-22-2019 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 10666302)
There are an infinite number of ways that this GPS tracker could have been removed and 'lost' but there was only one way it ended up off the vehicle and in a locker. There is nothing more deliberate as that....
+1

I'm thinking that if the search warrants hold up, and the evidence of the possession of the drugs and drug paraphernalia is let in, then the court can conclude that the accused knew, or ought to have known, that he might be under surveillance, which would form the basis of the formation of the accused's intent to interfere with the surveillance, or to deprive the state of its property.

It'll be interesting to see what the bright minds on the court do with this, as there will be serious consequences flowing from the decision.


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