The Dash
 

In terms of ergonomics, the dash is critical. It is where the vehicle's operator obtains information about the vehicle and what it is doing (besides the view thru the windshield and the built-in accelerometer in the operator's body...).

This is close to optimum. The only issues are that the gauges are too black and the steering wheel block your view of some gauges.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578343610.jpg

I hate the one in my Cayman. 2 speedometers, no oil pressure or oil temp. I do not see the logic.

We recently rented an Audi A4 from Silvercar - here is one of the dash options... (not my photo)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578344005.jpg

I can see the iPhone/Android generation really liking this. I don't.

Here are what I prefer - the green gauges (used in the early-mid 1960s):



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578343716.jpg



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578343782.JPG

Here is an attempt (by Maserati) to "solve" the problem of getting a view of all gauges and idiot lights:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578344164.jpg

I like the early 1960's General Motors dashboards.

pic?

I loved the dash in my old '88. I'm tall-ish and don't sit way back, so my view was very different from the photo above. I turned the tach and speedo counter-clockwise so the redline was straight up and the speedo was turned the same amount. Those two were the two that were the most impacted by the steering wheel, and turning the gauges resolved that issue.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that I hate it, but I think it would have been a huge improvement to enable more output on the small electric display at the bottom of the speedo. I think it should include oil level and pressure and maybe temp (although not as vital with a water cooled car if you have water temp).
Apparently, you could put a 996 gauge pod in 986s to get the rest of the gauges, but I don't think there's anything similar for 987 and up. Not only that, but on the older 987s and 2.7L, you could put the dip stick back in, but on mine, with the 3.4L, I'm screwed, no way to add a dipstick.

I suspect Porsche did away with the oil pressure and level gauges for the same reason they did in the miata and almost everything else these days. My miatas had oil pressure gauges, but they were what most of us would consider "fake". As long as the car had something like 5 or 7 psi of pressure, the gauge showed "normal". If you dropped below that bottom threshold, the gauge would go to 0. It was basically an idiot light that looked like a gauge. I guess the problem was that so many folks don't understand how oil pressure works, that Mazda had lots and lots of service calls for oil pressure where there was no issue. I know most of us "get it" but we are probably also a tiny minority of Porsche owners. There are probably plenty of Porsche owners that don't/wouldn't understand oil temp, pressure or level gauges if they had them. Shoot, any of you that have ever spent much time on the tech board have probably read the posts from folks that have had a 911 for X time (sometimes years) and have never revved the motor higher than 4k.
We rented a silvercar about a year ago. I really liked the dash and the ability to change it to show what I wanted. I wouldn't want to own one when it fails though.

The dash was my one big worry when I ordered the Model 3, I thought it was going to drive me crazy. Now getting back in the BMW just feels like a big mess of stuff right in front of me + hood instead of seeing more road. The 911 isn't nearly as bad, and the gauges are rotated as needed to see them a little better with the smaller wheel and redline at the top of the tach, but still a great no-hood view out the front. (and reversed wipers for that same reason)


My daily dash:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578348585.jpg


But there are some differences with this car vs an old 911:
No tach needed
No oil pressure / temp needed
Starts charged every day, very little need for 'fuel' gauge
Clock is a glance to the side
Don't need the odometer right there (no oil changes or anything, has a trip button if desired)
Wipers auto-adjust
Headlights are auto w/manual override
Can hear the blinkers (and they cancel themselves consistently :) )
HVAC is set to auto 99% of the time other than a degree up or down or hitting the defrost button
No key
Adjust the stereo on the wheel
Adjust the speed/follow distance on the wheel

Nav would be a little nicer to have the turns in a HUD or something, but that's not 99% of my driving, so it's out of the way.


I dig it.

I think this shouldn't be that big of a deal if automakers are responsible about the integration (not all are). Even the newest tech in 2020s with the digital dash, integrated nav, etc. etc. is only equivalent to a heavy duty laptop screen + a smartphone power wise. Shouldn't be overly expensive unless they just make it super hard to take apart.

Also, when's the last time any of us have seen a laptop just straight up die without getting broken? Cars are harsher environments sometimes, but the stuff is just way more reliable in general.

Sometimes I think the rise in complexity will actually make things simpler as it becomes more general purpose processor + software vs a ton of little unique modules.

GM Art - late 50's...……

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578349629.jpg

Excellent thread. I love it.

Human factors in cars and airplanes is, beyond basic reliability, road and air manners, etc., the critical link in safety. Man/machine interface is my thing.

I have been a part or two detailed "crews systems working groups” for the Navy and the Army (SH-60R and the Comanche) early in the design process. Great experiences that really impacted the design.

Both were excellent designs, but the Comanche was better:

60R

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578349726.jpg

Comanche

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578349753.jpg

By far the best "dash" is the FJ Cruiser...pedestrian car (I have two) but everything is where it should be within reach.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578349864.jpg

$4K per my S3 buddy - but under warranty thankfully ;-)
Wife has one on her Q7 too, it goes back the day before CPO ends, as with all Audis we'll ever own.

Paul, the 'hawk doesn't seem to have enough buttons.

We were at the auto show this weekend so my wife could look at and sit in cars to get an idea what she might like later on this year. She's short and one of the things she didn't like was the way dashes arch up over the speedo and distract from her view. The view of Rob's dash in the Tesla was good to see, since I'm now considering a model Y Tesla for her (maybe) later on.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578352460.jpg


Lotus Elan - not bad

I also like the toggle switches (I know they will keeel you! - worth it tho)

I like the dash from the 997.2 series 911's. I can see all of the gauges through the steering wheel of mine and everything is where I want to look.

Not my car, but to give an idea.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578354650.jpg

'08='09 Mustang Bullitt
 

One thing I like...very readable, also can change colors. I went with green, reminded me of the early 911. Also matched the non color change radio.
Tach on left, speedo on right, 4 smaller gauges in the center for fuel, temp, oil pressure, volts. Always kind of galled me that the old 911S dash, otherwise excellent, had no volt gauge.

The '19 Bullitt? Gauges from a Klingon bird of prey, big TV screen in the center. I hate 'em, the young guys love the dash...except when it goes blank, and there are reports of it doing just that.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578354709.jpg

putting the aux gauges in between the two important ones (tach & speedo) is not a good idea IMO - commonly done tho


I agree re the water-cooled Porscheys - another nice feature is the 3D look to the cluster - really helps the eye

the horn o'plenty oil level gauge is good - once you figure it out

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578355488.jpg


XKE dash - gets the basics right, but the long line of small gauges is not the best idea

long line of identical rocker switches is a worse idea

You don't need to worry about the toggle switches, chances are they don't operate any more! Lucas and all....

Cool! I was an investigator (lab technician) at WPAFB Aeromed lab in a long term study on the minimum difference between the shapes of control knobs that allows a pilot to distinguish between one control and another. The most fascinating part of the study putting them in the centrifuge and correlating the loss of peripheral vision with the loss of tactile acuity.

Absolutely agree 1000%

This is the reason why I am not a fan of the Tesla dash layout. It does not appear that the instrument cluster/dash of the car was even designed by anybody who had driven a car.

No, I’m not a Tesla hater but it seems a little bit inconvenient to have to turn your head (albeit ever so slightly) to get needed information.

While driving (and looking at the road ahead) I can still see the analog gauges in my Mercedes and Porsches. These manufacturers seem to understand this in the layout of their dashes.

Having flown a little myself (Nowhere the flight hours of Seahawk) I had to constantly know the “pulse” of my machine while constantly scanning the skies for . . . ANYTHING. I’m the same way while driving my car.

I’m surprised Tesla hasn’t incorporated a HUD in their cars. Here is a shot of a HUD (Heads up display) from a C 130 J.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578367998.jpg

With all the gauges, lights, knobs, read-outs, monitors, icons, levers... Who has time to actually drive the car? All you need is a big tach, oil press/water temp. And even that's a lot to manage if you're really going fast.

Mazda has a HUD on their SUVs


speaking of human factors designs.... here is a great and very readable book:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things

So, if a long line of small gauges is wrong, yet a small cluster between the speedo and tach is is wrong, what do you consider right? Seems like the two most logical layouts to me.

As far as gauges themselves...for ease of reading, I think the old Stewart-Warner scheme of black round faces with white needles can't be topped. High contrast...
That's why my wristwatch is the same...black face, white hands and numbers.

Porsche nailed another thing well with the early 911...the auxillary gauges laid out so needles were horizontal when everything in the normal zone while driving. Just a glance would tell the driver all was okay.

So many examples of bad dashes...

Unlabeled switches, all in a row.
Labeled switches, with labels you can't see at night.
Flat glass on the instruments, guaranteeing poor vision from reflections in sunlight.
Lots of gauges with little tiny scales.
Ammeters, the old-fashioned kind.
Switches and other things you have to manipulate behind the steering wheel.

Etc.

You guys can do much better...

While I fully realize the room I'm in, I've always found the 911's dash to be far from optimum. A nice place to sit? Yes of course, but I certainly wouldn't call it...ergonomically pleasing.

This was my daily view for 12 or so years. All the information I needed without obstruction, and tactile HVAC/Audio/window controls that could be implemented without taking my eyes of the road. No Tesla iPad for me thank you very much.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/df...a533f97397.jpg

I'd say that in the 1980's BMW sedans had the best dashes. Spent a lot of time behind them.

Starting in the 1990's, Audi did a much better job, especially at night. Spent a lot of time behind those, too. My daily driver is an '03 S8, which has an excellent dash.


I'd probably still vote for Audi today, they are certainly the best of the Germans.

Cool right back at ya!

The best thing about the Comanche cockpit (dash) is that the designers really took onboard the tactile advantages of switchology, especially changing radio frequencies without looking down, the bane of most cockpits.

The challenge is that military pilot are supposed to wear Nomex gloves when they fly (I never did unless the CO, XO or an anal senior officer was with me), so shapes were very important.

I do genuinely love this stuff. In unmanned aviation systems, we are all moving to gaming based interfaces since they users have been accustomed to them for freakin' ever.

I think Audi has the best interiors in general.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578425206.jpg


Rolls Royce dash - dig the wood

Note the multi-gauge in a single cluster to solve the problem of scattering a large number of gauges all over the dash. One drawback is that for the ones on top and bottom you cannot quickly scan horizontally across to read them as you can with side by side gauges (proper operating conditions are supposed to have the needles all lined up with each other for this to work best).

The 911 has done this too, to good effect. Often a voltage gauge is added to form a triple cluster. Not so quick to read but you do get a gauge for that reading.

I think his point is that the gauges shouldn't stretch over half way across the dash like in the XKE.

In the 911, the tach is central with the other gauges in fairly close proximity to either side, so still central to the driver, in theory with the less important gauges farther away from the driver's centerline.

In the XKE, the gauges stretch almost into the passenger's side of the dash.

Still the bit being missed here is not having to do those things. Speedo on the Tesla is a quick glance, Auto HVAC works great, tactile audio/window controls on the steering wheel and door.

Just no need for a bunch of the other stuff.

This is a consistent thing that I run into with people at work that are hung up on always wanting a big report with a ton of numbers. I just want the computer to tell me what's outside of parameters, not show me a bunch of things that are absolutely normal and have me have to fish it out.

Everybody’s view is different than that dash above. (it’s not just you)
Well, everybody taller than 4 feet anyway.
That is a nice press picture but far from a real world driving view of a 911 dash.
If the bottom of the gauges is out of sight, be a midget you might.

real world driving view of a 911 dash:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1578433631.jpg

So you would prefer a digital speedo and a few idiot lights.

Sounds like hell to me.

With gauges, you can see trends that indicate things are still within normal parameters (because normal is often a range), but have changed from the way things run 99% of the time.

Also, I've got climate control, and it works well, but I still find that I change the settings based on weather trends. I don't always have it set to 70, sometimes I'll crank it down to 68, sometimes up to 72, and sometimes I change it farther outside of that range based on how I feel that day and what's going on outside.

Same here.

IMHO, in a Tesla, one is a passenger, not a driver, with autopilot being the ultimate objective. In this light, vehicle info doesn't seem to be a big requirement for the passenger to know what is really going on with the transportation appliance. Just bury your head in your phone and enjoy yourself. :-)

Human factors and ergonomics (commonly referred to as human factors) is the application of psychological and physiological principles to the engineering and design of products, processes, and systems. The goal of human factors is to reduce human error, increase productivity, and enhance safety and comfort with a specific focus on the interaction between the human and the thing of interest. - Wikipedia

Mr. Webb, Your photo is the definition of ergonomics.