Is there such thing as a (reasonably) attainable Ferraris?

[javadog]

I wish I had bought an F40 or a 288GTO when I had a chance. Now they are stupid money.

[RWebb]

I wonder if Bill Lee has weighed in on best entry level Fcars to buy?

or Fchat?

[McLovin]

I agree with a lot of the criticisms of the 80s V8 Ferraris that Java points out. Ultimately it’s why I sold them. The driving dynamics are just plain poor, the exact opposite of a 911 of the era.

The two biggest issues, to me, being steering and chassis flex. Truly the worst steering feel, i actually never knew the technical reasons why that is so. You don’t know how important steering feel is to a sports car until you’re in a really bad one. Opposite of a 911, which to me has awesome steering feel.

Same with chassis flex. I’ve never driven a GTB, but my GTS and Mondi Cab were shockingly flexible. On perfectly smooth roads it’s ok, but that’s not real life. In real life driving feeling the chassis bend on every road imperfection is not fun.

Of course, build and material quality isn’t anything like a 911. My 110,000 mile 911 seats, for example, looked and felt newer than my 15,000 Ferrari seats.

The other thing I didn’t like was the weight. The 80s V8s are all surprisingly heavy, and you feel the weight. I’m a fan of lightness.

I still think the 308 is a very pretty car, though, inside and out. More so than the 328, esp. the interior.

I think a lot of the reason 308 prices have never really taken off is people buy them because they were a dream car of our youth, but they ultimately are somewhat disappointed, so they end up selling. It keeps a steady supply on the market.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Is there any reason why the 308 can't be strengthened? My 73 is a bare tub on a dolly that I'm doing inner and outer rockers and driver longitudinal. My uneducated sense is strengthening a 308 chassis would be easier than the rust repair on my 911.

Similarly, is the poor steering feel due to the rack or wheel offset or...? and can that be remedied? Longhood and impact bumper 911s are more fun to drive than 964+ in part due to lower offset.

Agreed on weight. The 73 is 2174 lb with a 3.2 in it.

[slow&rusty]

When I think about the 308s, 328s, Mondials, for me this car really get my blood flowing but I know nothing about ownership.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by slow&rusty

When I think about the 308s, 328s, Mondials, for me this car really get my blood flowing but I know nothing about ownership.

Ooh, The little Lambo V-8’s. The poster children for inadequate development and nonexistent spare parts.

Go for it.

[slow&rusty]

Originally Posted by javadog

Ooh, The little Lambo V-8’s. The poster children for inadequate development and nonexistent spare parts.

Go for it.

Well I currently own a really early Diablo so already know a lot about inadequate development and nonexistent spare parts...so I've "gone" for it

[javadog]

Originally Posted by slow&rusty

Well I currently own a really early Diablo so already know a lot about inadequate development and nonexistent spare parts...so I've "gone" for it

Hell, that's a modern car, by comparison. By that time, Chrysler owned Lamborghini so they had all of the resources of Chrysler at their disposal. Sadly, a few Chrysler designers had a little input...

I hope you don't have to buy a clutch for your Diablo...

[slow&rusty]

Originally Posted by javadog

Hell, that's a modern car, by comparison. By that time, Chrysler owned Lamborghini so they had all of the resources of Chrysler at their disposal. Sadly, a few Chrysler designers had a little input...

I hope you don't have to buy a clutch for your Diablo...

People say that all the time, but it is only the later Diablos (VT onwards) that benefited from Chrysler ownership, the early ones were basically semi-polished Countachs.

If the car needs a clutch, it gets one, its part of ownership

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Is there any reason why the 308 can't be strengthened?

Sure. Buy a GTB. Easiest, most cost effective way to solve that problem.

A 308 has a ladder frame, made from oval tubes like all 50's and 60's Ferraris. There's a little substructure made from rectangular tubing up front to handle the front suspension pick-up points. A slightly smaller structure exists at the rear for the rear suspension. On the US cars, there's a heavy chunk of crap to take the bumper loads which does nothing for the chassis except to make it a lot heavier. There's the odd piece of angle iron running here and there and the coupes have a little metal piece running up the A pillar, across the door opening and back down the C pillar.

Short of installing a full roll cage, you'd be hard pressed to do anything significant.

A GTB is light years better than a GTS but it still isn't great. Shut the door and you'll get rewarded with a dull thud. Shut a 911 door and, well, you know what you get.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by slow&rusty

People say that all the time, but it is only the later Diablos (VT onwards) that benefited from Chrysler ownership, the early ones were basically semi-polished Countachs.

If the car needs a clutch, it gets one, its part of ownership

****, Chrysler was on board for the last of the Countach cars, the dreaded anniversay Countach. That's why it looks so hideous.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Similarly, is the poor steering feel due to the rack or wheel offset or...? and can that be remedied?

The problem with steering feel isn't that it's non-existent. A 308 or 328 generates plenty of return force through the steering wheel. It's just that the way they made the column means that the forces are fed back unevenly. If you had the same force at the steering rack pushing back, as you wound the wheel the force you felt would get greater, then smaller, then greater, etc. It has to do with the uneven way that a pair of u-joints in a shaft transfer rotary motion if the joints are operating at different angles from each other. That's why they invented the constant velocity joint, which doesn't have this problem. I considered changing my u-joints to constant velocity joints but I never got around to figuring out if I could actually source joints of the appropriate size. The angle of the upper part of the steering column on my 328 was adjustable (with wrenches, not a handy little lever) so the angles could be made more equal, if you didn't care where the steering wheel ended up.

A 308 or 328 has a fairly flat angle for the steering wheel, compared to normal cars and a fairly slow steering rack ratio, so it felt a little bit like steering a bus.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Given your experience, it seems like CV joints and some time with a machine shop would get you a quicker bar/pinion. 911 shown below. The bar would be cheap and easy to make. The pinion gear would be a little pricey to make but probably worth it in the end. And you could sell kits to easily recoup your cost.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Given your experience, it seems like CV joints and some time with a machine shop would get you a quicker bar/pinion. 911 shown below. The bar would be cheap and easy to make. The pinion gear would be a little pricey to make but probably worth it in the end. And you could sell kits to easily recoup your cost.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I no longer give two ****s about anything Ferrari related...

Sold the cars long ago, along with the books, magazines, memorabilia, the yard sign, the posters, the luggage, etc.

I still have the failed first gear out of my TR, a celebratory bottle of wine for winning a platinum award with the 328, a DVD of some debauchery in New Orleans... Got one or two Lambo things as well, but am finished with the Italian Car Segment Of My Life.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by javadog

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I no longer give two ****s about anything Ferrari related...

Sold the cars long ago, along with the books, magazines, memorabilia, the yard sign, the posters, the luggage, etc.

I still have the failed first gear out of my TR, a celebratory bottle of wine for winning a platinum award with the 328, a DVD of some debauchery in New Orleans... Got one or two Lambo things as well, but am finished with the Italian Car Segment Of My Life.

How could I miss it? My post wasn't relating to you and your ownership, only to existing owners who may be similarly disappointed with their ownership experience.

Making a 308 steer like a 911 should be relatively easy especially given wheel offsets are close. I'm going to send an email to RPM, just did some gas caps for them in yellow cad.

It strikes me the greatest challenge the car faces is being a few hundred pounds too heavy.

The only Italian car I realistically see in my future is a Fulvia.

[asphaltgambler]

I had a chance nce to drive a nice 308 the early 2000's. Two things immediately struck me was the incredible short final drive gearing - like a semi and then a whole lot of noise from the exhaust and not really going anywhere even after rowing through the gated gearshift.....

[RWebb]

chassis flex was an issue with the earliest Miuras too - fixed in later ones, according to Leno

sounds like a general italian thing?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by RWebb

chassis flex was an issue with the earliest Miuras too - fixed in later ones, according to Leno

sounds like a general italian thing?

Chassis flex wasn't the Miura's biggest problem...

In any event, it had a completely different chassis architecture that was light years ahead of what Ferrari did. It would have been fixed before production, if the demand hadn't been so high and Ferruccio had told his staff to put it into production before the engineers were happy with it.

Porsche wasn't much better than Ferrari with it's roofless models. All they had in the structure to provide bending and torsional stiffness were the rocker boxes and shifter tunnel. Sports cars of the era usually had either a ladder style frame or a unit body structure. A ladder frame had little bending stiffness and if you cut the roof off of a unit body car, you were screwed.

The first really stiff road car frame was in the Countach. It was essentially identical to what was used in a tube framed racing car, right before racing cars began to be built from sheet metal structures in earnest. That technology (sheet metal) started hitting the tracks in around 1966 but most top line race cars were still built from tube frames when the idea for the Countach was hatched.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Countach chassis

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by javadog

Porsche wasn't much better than Ferrari with it's roofless models. All they had in the structure to provide bending and torsional stiffness were the rocker boxes and shifter tunnel. Sports cars of the era usually had either a ladder style frame or a unit body structure. A ladder frame had little bending stiffness and if you cut the roof off of a unit body car, you were screwed.

This C3 we are restoring is remarkably stiff. In any rotation on the rotisserie, the A pillar to seat belt hanger turnbuckle only stiffens slightly. The windshield to Targa bar were not needed at all, they don't change at all. It is a rust free car.

The underside of the car is more cleaning and preservation than (over) restoration.