I had Bosch's new condensing, energy factor 1.0 unit installed as they hit the market July '18. Summer gas bills have dropped to approx $5/mo from $15/mo. Negligible either way, but a main consideration was being able to install a sink in the garage where there used to be a ginormous tank.

Actually, part of the savings is that it makes you think about how you use hot water. When you have a tank, there's always hot water so you don't think about using it. I'm not taking cold showers, that's for darn sure. But hands/face/dishes washing, do you really want to cycle a machine for that? Does washing your hands in warm water kill germs more than cold? No. I wash dishes in cold water, no problem.

You can have recirculators installed for tankless instant-on hot, but it diminishes warranty since the unit runs more.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1581877367.jpg

you'll lose quick hot water

you'll gain lower operating costs (with NG), and better (near infinite) thru-put as per above post

you'll have more maintenance - every few years to clean it with a solution of CLR type stuff

So I go down to the basement to check on the water heater size and there is water on the floor !!! :mad: The water heater is spaced off the floor on bricks so I run my hand under/around the heater and it's dry :confused: I look a little further and I see the vinyl tubing condensate line from the HVAC ( had new system installed last week ) dangling in the air :( It was the residual water in the line plus any new water the system has added since the install . The water heater is right next to where the HVAC lines exit the house . WHEW :D

So I fixed that hiccup and looked at the water heater , it actually is a 50 gallon but apparently not considered any kind of energy efficient . I say that because of the energy guide line yellow sticker it is pegged all the way to the right ! So it looks like anything would be an improvement .

Yep! Got one down my basement. Mine is an A.O. Smith GVPL-50-201 I think the AO Smith and the State heater are the same one in the PVC vent model. Mine is a 50 Gal. but I think you can get a 40 Gal.

The power vent gas units have faster recovery than electric hands down. I had a 50 Gal Electric but went to a 50 Gal gas simply because I had 5 people at home when it was installed. Having two daughters made me decide to up the size of the tank.

BTW, I wanted to go tankless but couldn't get comfortable with knowing I'd have to do regular maintenance to keep it running properly. We have a lot of limestone in this area which makes our water harder. A good friend of mine owns a Plumbing company. I asked him what he'd do in my situation and he said "tank hands down". He said he has had a lot of service calls on tankless systems. That was enough to keep me from buying one. I think these new tankless systems are incredible and if my water was better I'd own one.

^^^ Cab yours is a powered vent heater ? I did a quick search and it appears that it is . We have well water but it doesn't seem to have any nasty or hard chemicals ( not complaining ) . We don't have any smell like sulphur and we have no scale build up on fixtures . We also do not have any rust stains or any stains for that matter . I installed a small water filter right after the water tank and we do get sediment/grit . But that's about it .

My older brother in NY installed a Bosch tankless water heater about 15 years ago in his house on city water . It has been fairly reliable but he has had some electronic issues , he is an engineer so for him to diagnose/repair is no big deal . I don't posses that gene :( Just like my HVAC decision I may lean towards the KISS principle :D

Yeah mine is a power vent unit with PVC vent. My water doesn't have sulfur either. City water is typically softer water with less of the nasty stuff that well water has in it. Ask a few plumbing shops what they think. Maybe have your water tested by an independent testing company. It might help you decide the best path forward.

rfuerst911s - we been installing powervent (pvc vent) gas water heaters since the mid 90's. (NJ) No issues, other than following mfg directions for the venting.

Have an on-demand (18KW, Florida, no gas available) which works well because the tap water is already lukewarm.

I have been calling BS on heat pump water heaters IF they are installed in a conditioned space. Think. It uses already warmed (you paid for) air to nest the water.

In a garage? Sure. They work.

Also, most on demand hot water heaters don't pencil out I have been told. Very nice not to run out. We have one at a family place.

This has not been my experience over the past 9.5 years. It has been awesome.

I have flushed it once with vinegar after 2 years and nothing bad came out. I had to change the fan once due to an imbalance in the squirrel cage from dead moths. It was $100 and took 15 minutes.

I would not own another hot water tank.

Our water is extremely hard, I knock iron out with a water softener, and this adds salt to already salty water. We can run 2 showers and the appliances all at the same time without issue.

Instant -on & never looked back. Brand Triangle Tube so it also does the heating. Take hot showers all day long and never run out.. you don't get that with a tank-heater & you pay to keep that water warm when you are not even home, how crazy is that? and it runs out so that third person is getting a cold shower.. only drawback is it takes awhile to 'spool -up' if the unit is far from the faucet.

If you've made it 10 yrs w/o issue you're probably fine. Otherwise it could be that vinegar is kinda lame. Vinegar is 5% acetic acid, which is a weak acid. You can get 100% glacial acetic acid off amazon. I saw a comment from a guy who said he used coffee pot cleaner and was wondering why the effluent was blue. I think he was dissolving his heat exchanger. Don't put glacial acetic on your salads :eek:

The issue with the "on-demand" is that it won't work in a power outage. I don't know about you, but I can do a lot better without power than without hot water.

G

This is true so if power outages are common and you choose not to have backup, You will have to heat water on your stove for a Navy shower.

I still have a 50gal NG powered tank that is probably 30 years old. It covers our needs but is a long long way from the Master bath and kitchen so hot water takes a long time to arrive. I have considered adding a small circulation pump to move hot water for 5 minutes in the morning and bring it to the master bath.

The on demand gas water heaters do require annual maintenance to keep them in top form but they are the most efficient way to heat water over time. I will probably put one in when my tank dies and relocate it within 15' of the master bath for quick hot water. Power outages are pretty non-existent around here.

This is true so if power outages are common and you choose not to have backup, You will have to heat water on your stove for a Navy shower.

I still have a 50gal NG powered tank that is probably 30 years old. It covers our needs but is a long long way from the Master bath and kitchen so hot water takes a long time to arrive. I have considered adding a small circulation pump to move hot water for 5 minutes in the morning and bring it to the master bath.

I'm interested in 30 vs. 40 gallon conversation. We have a 40 gallon gas unit that is now almost 30 years old. I'd like to replace it before it goes kaput.

Like you, I think we would do fine on just a 30 gallon unit because it's just the two of us now and we almost never use the shower twice on one day. Dishwasher gets run about every 5 days and we only use cold water in the washer.

Sure, holidays we might have a kid or two in for a few days, but I don't see how 30 gallons wouldn't work for that, too. Definitely staying with gas.

Thoughts?

Actually you do. I have never run out of hot water with my 50 gallon tank. If I had natural gas I'd have gone with one of the State Pro Line or Premier high efficiency water heaters. The Premier is designed to run as a hot water source for sinks/showers and it will also function as a "boiler" for hot water heat. They're an impressive beast.

I don't think any new water heater has a standing pilot so you're S.O.L if the power goes out unless it will allow you to manually light. Naturally, you'll have some hot water storage but as you use it you also lose it as cold water enters the tank.

Not 100% insurmountable.

We have a well so we have no water either during a power outage.

What I have done during an extended power outage is this...

I have an extension cord made up that I can plug my NG furnace into (heat).
I have a 1500 gallon cistern that feeds my house via a jet pump.
A Rinnai plugs into a 15A 110v recpticle.

All 3 run off a 2000W Honda generator just fine.

The NG tankless only uses 3.5 amps. Mount a UPS. I have solar/battery backup. If the grid goes down the panels continue to charge the battery which powers several critical loads on a separate panel.

Our house came with a 119 gal AO Smith* and it leaked just after the warranty. Mom and dad had an AO Smith from when they built the house in '73 and it is chugging along fine.

Both have dual elements but out top element is off since we use waste heat from the geothermal pump. Both of us use a water softener since the water is pretty hard here. (We have a Westinghouse now)

* The PO put in one of those stupid Water Haven showers which requires the large tank. The shower leaks and you can't get parts for it anymore.