Pilots-Experimental Aircraft Question

[NeedSpace]

So stuck at home, my thoughts are wandering to when I can finally purchase an aircraft for myself. I have been thinking of different aircraft I would like to fly and one day perhaps own.

I am especially intrigue by the Velocity aircraft



Looking through the regs, it looks like I wouldn't be able to use it because of where I live. basically under the New York Approach airspace in northern NJ.

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

Am I understanding this correctly, that I wouldn't be able to own this or fly this to my base airport of White Plains HPN? Thanks in advance.

[CalPersFatCat]

https://www.vansaircraft.com/

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=VANS&s-type=aircraft

https://www.barnstormers.com/category-23352-Vans-RV.html

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by NeedSpace

Am I understanding this correctly, that I wouldn't be able to own this or fly this to my base airport of White Plains HPN? Thanks in advance.

That refers to the test phase only.

All home-builts (Experimental placard) will be limited for the first 25+ hours (or nearly double that if your engine/prop aren't cert'd units) for the initial test phase. After completion of the build, you basically become the "chief test pilot" and need to demonstrate that it is airworthy (or you can find/pay someone to do it for you). During the first phase, that means no pax, VFR only, and no populated/congested areas, etc. After that process is successfully completed, you are cleared for normal (part 91) ops.

[Seahawk]

Enjoy:

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/about-eaa

Vans is an amazing aircraft. I’ve flow two and helped buck rivets on a couple.

The RV-8 ticks all my boxes.

Good luck!

[Rusty Heap]

Tagging along to this thread,


I'm in my mid 50's and have the cash to get Pilots License and checked out in a Cessna 150 to start.


To get certified, can someone Cliff Note the steps / time / costs of getting a private license?

class/texts and tests required for check out........

Side note, I've got "some" stick time with buddys in the air.


It'd be a bucket list item for me. How much is renting a Wet Cessna these days?

[Sebscst]

I was in-the process of getting my private pilots license. I only do about 4 hrs a week. That includes 1 hr of flight the rest is ground school. At this rate it’ll take about roughly 6 months. There are different ways to do it. Cost with fuel will be around 10k with a Cessna 172.

[Bill Douglas]

How about a RV-8?

[KNS]

Originally Posted by Rusty Heap

Tagging along to this thread,


I'm in my mid 50's and have the cash to get Pilots License and checked out in a Cessna 150 to start.


To get certified, can someone Cliff Note the steps / time / costs of getting a private license?

class/texts and tests required for check out........

Side note, I've got "some" stick time with buddys in the air.


It'd be a bucket list item for me. How much is renting a Wet Cessna these days?

Most all of the flight schools right now aren't doing any flight instruction(can't keep six ft from your instructor in a 172). Great time to start studying for your written exam, start some ground school lessons and if able, set aside money for the actual flying lessons.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Rusty Heap

I'm in my mid 50's and have the cash to get Pilots License and checked out in a Cessna 150 to start.

You didn't ask, but my advice:

Get the cheapest ticket you can that lets you fly a production airplane. I think that's Sport Pilot now.
Rent, don't buy for 100 hours or so.
You may like it, you may not.
My experience was I put in a lot of seat time just flying around - haze below, haze ahead, no view - just sitting there navigating. They don't put pictures of crappy weather in the brochures.
Learning how to aviate was fun, I loved controlling the airplane. But navigating wasn't fun and communicating was frustrating. It helped to get a radio that let me listen to airport coms from the ground to get used to the grunts and growls and figure out what they meant. But I wanted to fly.
On the few days in this part of the country when the weather was nice and a plane was available it was FANTASTIC! One morning there was a layer of cloud above me and a layer below and columns of clouds connecting them. It was like being in an immense cathedral. I slalomed between the columns for an hour and got totally lost in the experience. It was glorious! Saw some great sunrises and sunsets and on a few days nice landscapes. I had fun doing stuff with the airplane I wasn’t supposed to do at my stage of experience.
In the end I only got about 100 hours in before I decided it wasn’t worth the $26 an hour it was costing me. (I know – it was a while ago). Glad I hadn't sunk a bunch of money into buying an airplane.

[NeedSpace]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

That refers to the test phase only.

All home-builts (Experimental placard) will be limited for the first 25+ hours (or nearly double that if your engine/prop aren't cert'd units) for the initial test phase. After completion of the build, you basically become the "chief test pilot" and need to demonstrate that it is airworthy (or you can find/pay someone to do it for you). During the first phase, that means no pax, VFR only, and no populated/congested areas, etc. After that process is successfully completed, you are cleared for normal (part 91) ops.

AH! Thanks Eric! That is fantastic news!

[NeedSpace]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Enjoy:

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/about-eaa

Vans is an amazing aircraft. I’ve flow two and helped buck rivets on a couple.

The RV-8 ticks all my boxes.

Good luck!

I think Vans makes a beautiful aircraft. This is also on my list. I am leaning toward a 4 seater but hey, you never know.

[pwd72s]

A friend of mine in happier days...loved his plane but had to sell, CTE suspected...Once licensed to fly nukes for Uncle...was an F-111 pilot.

[NeedSpace]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

OP
You did not ever state your goals .
We are not all on the same agenda.

You can buy an ultra-light mosquito helicopter and fly with no license, no notin as well as fixed-wing same category.
Most people fly to the next airport and have coffee and go home.
It is a hobby, they are not really going anywhere.
The helicopter opens up lots of places and spaces with no airports.

https://composite-fx.com/models/xel/

I have taken 2 helicopter lessons in a Robinson R22. Loved the experience and was surprised how quickly I picked it up. This is definitely a possibility in my mind.

MY intention is mostly hobby flights with the occasional visiting of friends and family in NY, MD, and MA. Other than the dream "visit all 48 states", I doubt I'll be going much further than that.

Im still in the investigational stage but I like that I have more options. I know the "dangers" or flying a plane that has not been put together professionally, Im ok with those factors. Plus, I will know every part of my plane like I know ever part of my house and my cars. I know it isn't for everyone but that is what I love about this country of ours.

Anyone here have experience with experimental aircraft? Thoughts? Experiences?

[Cajundaddy]

Yep experimental aircraft is a lot of fun. Everything from really rugged STOL types to slippery composite speedsters like the Rutan designs, Glasair, and Lancair.

My suggestion: Get your ticket in a Cessna 152 or Piper and log some hours well before you buy in. Make sure you like it and can fit this into your lifestyle.

If you really want to go experimental as a 1st plane get one with good manners at low speed like the Vans. Many of the high performance composite aircraft can be a handful getting back on the runway in less than ideal conditions and are best left to highly experienced pilots with a lot of hours.

[Dantilla]

Building an airplane is a monumental task.
The most oft-stated rule:
If you want to fly, buy an airplane.
If you want to build, then build.

That being said, many builders end up soon selling their completed airplane and starting another one.
Commonly referred to as "Repeat Offenders".

If one starts out thinking "I'm building an airplane", it's easy to get overwhelmed and discouraged.
Successful builders take the mind set "I'm building a flap hinge" or whatever task lies ahead.
Eventually, all these small tasks begin to take on the shape of an airplane.

Now that it looks like an airplane, the common phrase is: "90% done, 90% to go".
Fuel lines, brake systems, engine mount & controls, electrical system, yada, yada....

Of all the kits available, the family of planes from Van's has by far the best record of kits being completed and flying.
Very thorough kits, easily understood, detailed plans, excellent factory and on-line support.

Not to mention, excellent airplanes. Very quick, yet easy to fly, and they take off and land at slow enough speeds that they have earned an excellent safety record. Insuring an RV-7 costs about the same as a Cessna 172.

Full disclosure: I'm currently building an RV-7.

[dar636]

The regulation you found does indeed apply to Amateur Built aircraft, and the later statement that the regulation would not be applicable following the initial test flights (phase 1) is only partially true.

Once the aircraft is ready to fly and the FAA or a designee inspects the aircraft to issue the Special Airworthiness Certificate, they will generate Operating Limitations that are attached to the certificate and must be adhered too for all operations. The current wording for Phase 2 flight area operations is:

26. Flight over a densely populated area or in a congested airway is authorized for the purpose of takeoff or landing; or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to make a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground. (55)

FAA order 8130.2J is the current guidance for certificates, it does change fairly regularly so today's policy may differ in a year, but the above wording is current as of today.

I have been a FAA Designee since 2000, and I am a fan of the RV series. Easy to build, operate, inspect and fun to fly. If you have specific questions, fire away. Matt

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by dar636

The regulation you found does indeed apply to Amateur Built aircraft, and the later statement that the regulation would not be applicable following the initial test flights (phase 1) is only partially true.

Hey Matt,

DMIR/DAR? I would defer to your judgment/info, but that is not exactly what was said in my later statement. The OP's question was referencing the airspace limitations applicable to Experimental home-builds.

AFAIK, those operating limitations regarding airspace, (and pax, flight rules, radio ident, etc.) are only applicable during the test phase (phase 1).
For all intents and purposes, the current operating limitations for "phase 2" ops (the remainder of the A/C's service life), are the same as other type-cert'd A/C under part 91...unless I'm missing something?

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by NeedSpace

Anyone here have experience with experimental aircraft? Thoughts? Experiences?

Just know that buying and building an Experimental A/C is a massive commitment and undertaking. Many, many projects end up busting their budget of both time and money.
Projected build times of 1-2 years routinely end up taking 5-10 years. Many lose interest and/or money, and end up selling off their partial-builds and parts bins.

So, as a proposed recreational pilot flying a handful of times a year for the proverbial $100 hamburger, you would probably be better off renting for a while.
If you still have the build-bug after 1000 hours or so of renting, then maybe revisit the notion. Fractional ownership may be another option as well, down the road. YMMV (or YHMV).

[dar636]

Hello, I am a FSDO and MIDO DAR.

There are about 25 limitations that carry over from Phase 1 to Phase 2; no intentional parachute jumping, towing, use for compensation or hire, ATC notification requirements, instructions for maintenance entries, etc., that are not levied on other part 91 operators.

Amateur built aircraft are great, more than 30 thousand and counting, but - they have limitations and they are all different, even RV's built side by side. EAA membership and participation is a must to get the most out of the education and recreation aspect of the build process.

I agree with what other have said about renting, buying or sharing if what you're really after is flying (vs. building)

[NeedSpace]

Thanks for all the feedback, this is great.

First let me say I have my VFR and about 110 hours, so not a lot. My plan when I start flying more is to rent at the start then purchase my own plane when I have a better feel for the kind of flying I'll be doing. I have flown mostly 152 (which was ok), 162s (which i liked but felt flimsy), 172s and Piper Cherokees.

When I go for my IFR, I really would prefer to be doing it in my own airplane. It'll be more economical plus I would be very well familiar with my own plane which would be more ideal. A friend of mine has a Cherokee he is considering turning into a share so that's a thought.

Also, I don't intend to build the plane myself. Perhaps in the far future because i think it would be fun to build a plane. Honestly though unlikely to be any time in the next 10 years. I don't have the time and it would sit. It took me about 2 years to get my porsche on the road and all that needed was an engine and transmission and a few other parts!

I didn't realize the vans had a 4 place plane. I like though that you have the option for a tail dragger. I'll toss that on to my dream list...

Dantilla do you have a thread with you RV-7 build?