^^^This. Well worded.

Grew up a big boxing fan. Boxed a little till I was 15.

When MMA first began, I was uncertain. No rules, no weight classes...it all seemed like watching bar fights. Not my thing.

Then UFC came in and established real, sensible guidelines. I truly enjoy seeing all the different disciplines in action. My cousin was a grappling instructor in the Army. Another cousin is actually fighting in smaller circles in the southeast with some success. His dad refs some fights.

Jorge Masvidal came up through some backyard fighting, aka Kimbo. He's very good.
He had Roberto Duran at one of his fights. I jumped up clapping when he entered the ring with him.

Love it all. There's room for it.

Kinda like a 1964 Land Rover or a nice 2010 C63. Similar money, different as all hell, both friggin' awesome.

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There will be a computer program for that in the future.
It will factor moves, speed, conditioning, even predictive mental state.
Ali's bobbing and showboat might make Tyson lose it.

I don't see Ali having the luxury of showboating. He would a little, surely, but it would not be "his plan".

My money on Tyson as well.

I think one of the things that gets lost in these "Ali vs. Tyson" (and similar) debates is the advance in physical training as time marches on. I believe Tyson was much stronger, faster, and in far better condition than Ali ever was. But I also believe that if you were able to take the man that was Mohamed Ali, the heart that was Mohamed Ali, and somehow transport him into the modern era of boxing, and availed him of all of our modern training, he would, once again, excel as he did in his era. He had the genetics, the aptitude, and the heart. If he were a modern heavyweight, fighting today, I think the rest of them would be in big trouble. Same with Tyson, retroactively - if he were of Ali's era, he would almost certainly not have had the power and speed he brought to the ring, but he would still be the same distance ahead of the crowd as he was during his era. I think direct comparisons across eras must take modern training into account. The man is still the man - any one of them, in the other man's era, would be comparatively the same as he was in his own era. But, if you took the modern Iron Mike and pitted him against the vintage Ali, Tyson would kill him. Maybe literally.

Well said Jeff.

People somehow forget Holyfield was better. Beat him twice easily. Watch “Chasing Tyson”. Just because one dresses in black, talked a lot of tough talk and knocked out a lot of lower lever fighters and has been’s, doesn’t really mean he’s really “The baddest man on the planet”. Unfortunately image is not always reality.

^^^^ This...and at the very top...it's always "mental". I was a b-ball fanatic....MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. had skills, but the heart and brain of a champion is what seperated them from the rest. Tyson doesn't have that....Ali did. I was a Joe Frazier fan....hated Ali's bs...back then. He put Joe in the hospital with his skills, and Joe was a tough SOB. Later in his career, I realized how tough Ali was....he could take a beating and not give up....by some powerful grill masters too ;).

Don King turned me away from boxing too....total slime :(.

HA! I knew the color of every gym ceiling in my high school league!

This mag..'The Collidor' shows their top 30 boxers of all time.
Tyson isn't included.
https://collider.com/galleries/30-greatest-boxers-of-all-time/?utm_source=geni&utm_campaign=35450177326&utm_term =HOMEPAGE_US&utm_gemini=yahoo.com&utm_content=newn ext&utm_medium=It_YG_CO_US_D_ChrEdg_GreatestBoxers CO_crsl_v3_1505

Just finished reading the entire list. Not much there I can argue with. I definitely agree with their #1 pick.
Some way before even my time, others I can remember.

One not on the list I admire? An east coast lightweight, Danny Deliberto. Only 30 fights because of broken hands..
but was undefeated. His manager/trainer Angelo Dundee convinced him to find something other than boxing.
So he did...always a good amateur pool player, he upped his game enough to make a good living.
Now in his 80's, he can sometimes be found commenting on live stream pool matchups.

On a stream I was watching he mentioned he never told his children of his boxing career.
Then told of one day he told a son to answer the phone.
His son came in the room, and asked; "How do you know Angelo Dundee?"

Said it before here, I don't know boxing. The literal image of Tyson beating people up really hard and really fast is tough to shake. It was impressive and frightening.

I'll watch the Holyfield v Tyson fights over a few adult beverages tonight to broaden my base.

Remember that George Foreman won the unified heavyweight title when he was 45 and held it until he retired at 48.

I sat a few rows back for a Mayweather vs (I can't remember) back at the early part of his career.
The tv crew included Foreman as a commentator.
During the time-out between the different bouts, Foreman walked thru the rows talking to the fans.
Even seeing him from 100 ft away...the guy was truly imposing.

Just watched the first Holyfield v Tyson.

"Beat him easily" is a stretch.

Holyfield had a plan. It worked and he earned it. I really enjoyed that.

I suspect I would lose to either in their prime given my advancing age.

LOL....who was the bozo that had "Hi" "Mom" written on the bottom of his shoes....mebbe it was Leon?

A paycheck is a paycheck :D...

Heh heh heh... that's a classic old boxing joke. A buddy of mine took some kind of white paint stick or something and did that to my shoes back in my Golden Gloves days, in high school. Can't remember if I won or lost that one. Didn't matter, though, no one ever got knocked out. We wore BIG gloves, like 12-16 ounces. It was more like a pillow fight...

Watching Tyson/Holyfield. Never in doubt.

The problem with this analysis is that Holyfield never fought the true Tyson. "Post Prison" Tyson was not the same as "Pre Prison" Tyson. Additionally if I remember correctly, Tyson fought Holyfield shortly after serving his sentence and had a considerable amount of ring rust. Lastly, don't forget that Holyfield was a walking steroid factory, unlike Tyson who appeared to be natural. Holyfield was a light heavyweight at best but juiced his way up to heavyweight. The steroids, coupled with fighting a ring rust post prison Tyson, (without the allure of invincibility) tilted this a fight in Holyfields favor. This is why when we look back it is Tyson not Holyfield who is regarded as the superior fighter. Just look at how they both aged. Tyson is still a beast and looks like he has the same devastating power in the short clip, while Holyfield has lost a considerable amount of muscle and his punches seemed like baby punches compared to Tyson. Kinda what happens when you get off the juice.

Yes because Tyson ran from Holyfield for years, hence the name "Chasing Tyson".

Also Tyson had four fights post prison before Holyfield. Ring rust should have been gone. Holyfield had the boxing skills and mentality to beat him. He gets knocked out on his feet, keeps his composure and just keeps coming. Tyson get frustrated and starts biting.

My guess is that Tyson hit the beans as well.

Who did Tyson fight and beat that we look back and remember the name besides Michael Spinxs and Larry Holmes. Both well past their primes. The Larry Holmes that beat Ali would have destroyed Tyson. Tyson would have gotten frustrated, tried to box and just made things worse for himself.

Yes he did destroy a lot of fighters but I think it was the times and the media. You could see the fear in the fighters eyes before the match even started (Bruce Sheldon). He was really good, just not great.

Next someone will say Sugar Ray beat Hagler.

Sugar Ray beat Hagler.

Heehee.

Thing is, for Mike it only takes him one lucky shot at any moment in a bout and it’s lights out. Just that possibility alone gave him an edge.

LMAO...Tysons record is a total of 58 fights 50 wins, 44 of them by KO but I guess all 50 wins were washed up or no name fighters?

Frank Bruno
Buster Mathis
Peret McNeeley
Razor Ruddock
Henry Tillman
Carl "the truth" Williams
Tyrell Biggs
Trevor Burbick
Jessee Ferguson
Tony Tucker

These guys were all well respected fighters in their prime. Take Tony Tucker for example. 67 total fights, 57 wins and 47 by KO and he fought in his prime from 1980 to 1998. The fight with Tyson was in 87 when both fighters were well in their prime.
People only remember the huge name fights because most don't follow the sport to that degree unless they're real fans. To make the claim that Tyson only fought 2 real fighters is factually incorrect and disingenuous at best.

Hollyfield was 1000% percent on the juice and at an extremely high level, to the degree that he actually encountered health problems and was forced to stop fighting for a while. You seem to be glossing over this FACT. Tyson was natural which is why he has still maintained his speed, power and physique to this day. This one fact alone is a complete game changer. Its the reason athletes like Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong to name a few are tarnished. Steroids for a professional athlete are basically like super solder serum and at that point its just not a fair match, which is why they are banned however in the 80's testing was limited.

Hollyfield was great, don't get me wrong and he managed to juice up his light heavyweight frame to cruzer weight and eventually heavyweight, and I understand his reasoning for juicing as he had an actual "need" since he wanted to fight in the heavyweight division with the big payouts but was trapped in a smaller mans frame. Tyson did not have this need since he was a natural heavyweight. A non steroid using Holyfield would have been just another fighter getting decimated by Tyson.

Defending how great Holyfield was is like arguing how great Lance Armstrong was.

^^^ If you ever see him in real life...might be best to not call him 'Hollyfield':D

^^^ Best to whisper it in his ear ;).

Ali was much taller than Tyson, with a much longer reach...in his prime, he would have jabbed, danced, and frustrated Tyson.
Ali could indeed take a punch...while out boxing him all around the ring. And the mental screwing he would have used....would have been epic...jmo.

Ya 'ear what I'm sayin :D?

Tru dat...:eek:

To elaborate on my post above. If you want to be technical, out of his 58 fights, Tyson lost 6 total but only 3 during his prime. (the two Holyfield bouts and Buster Douglas). One could argue that Tyson should have even won the Douglas fight because Douglas didn't make the count after a devastating knock down by Tyson but the ref stalled the count. This has been a huge controversy since Douglas didn't get up until around 13 seconds.

His next loss was to Lennox Lewis in 2002 but he was already 35 years old and pretty much mentally checked out of the sport. His only other two losses were 3 years later at 38 years of age before retiring.

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Actually, they would have never fought. Unless Tyson got AIDS and went down a few divisions...

They were both manifestations of the best athletes modern science can produce.

I won't take anything away from Armstrong. When the entire peloton is cheating, no one is cheating. He was a product of the times. And if anyone thinks any of his predecessors, going back decades, were "clean", well, they just don't follow the sport. Hell, Eddie Merckx himself got busted several times.

And I'll guarantee that no one in the heavyweight ranks was clean in those days either, including Tyson. Some relied on the juice more than others. Holyfield probably the most. He had many of the "tells" showing years and years of use, like the cro-magnon brow line, big square jaw, etc.

I won't take much away from him, though. The man had the biggest heart I think I have ever seen in the ring. My God, but did he ever take some beatings, and never, ever quit. I have to give him that. That doesn't come out of a syringe...

Bill Burr the comedian said roughly "Big deal, our roided up guy beat all the other roided up guys."

The parachute will deploy as soon as he leaves the launch ramp.

You guys know that Tyson hosts a podcast among many other things. Here's a recent one with Holyfield.

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Those guys weren’t great. You made my point. He lost to buster but maybe took him lightly though Buster was on mission that night. Then ran into a historical talent and we know how it ended. Twice.
What makes you think Tyson wasn’t on steroids? His figured changed quite a bit as he got older. Also, I use to watch a ton of boxing actually. Tuesday night fights, reading the Ring. Not much since Tyson/Lewis. If you want to think he is that great, so be it. I always say better than most. Great, not likely. He could punch, so could Wilder. How’d that work out for him.

Sorry, Bruno was a chiseled beast. Had a wax figure made in madam whatever in London so somewhat popular. A great fighter? No. A over hyped British fighter? More likely.

It doesn't sound like you've fought or been involved in martial arts the way you're discrediting these great fighters. I guess next you'll say that Royce Gracie was just an average over hyped fighter as well. That's the problem with keyboard analysis. Watching fights does not make one an expert or even qualified to have an opinion if you really want to get technical. SmileWavy

Show of hands, how many here have gone three full rounds fer real?

Like I said, I grew up fighting in the Golden Gloves program. I gave it up late high school-ish because I saw no future in it. Years later, mid-20's, fought a few "tough man" kind of things just to remind myself of the fact that I had no future in it.

No boxing matches for me but I've trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for close to a decade and sparred/rolled with several professional UFC fighters. I've also competed so I understand that aspect to some degree. Here's a few pics of me with Max Griffin and Ryan Hall. I'm in the Black Panther Rashguard in the bottom two pics and if you don't know who Ryan hall is than you don't get to comment. :D (Still train 5 x per week, which may be why I'm so opinionated lol).





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According to Higgins, that means yer fornicating, ya' nasty freak!!! :)

Touch'e :eek::eek::eek:

Speaking of freaks, and a formerly roided up fighter, Overeem did a nice job of surviving Harris's early beating to then deliver his own ass whooping since Harris blew out all his energy trying to get a finish (plus, no doubt his mind did a number on his body, as could be expected with his first fight back).

I never said they weren't good fighters, your putting words in my mouth. I just said not great fighters. There is a difference.

My experience:

I boxed for a couple years in my early teens. Okay, never really loved it.

Tried karate. Bored after a few months.

Wrestled in High School and some college (transfer to another college (major change). Not close to D1 material but okay.

Volunteer Wrestling Coach now.

Last competed wrestling two years ago at 48. I'm still sore and I wasn't even in the open division.

Oh, back to Tyson. We disagree, so I'm moving on. I'm okay that you think Tyson was a great. I hope he finds happiness in whatever he pursues. I think he means well.

Comparing fighters across eras is fun but obviously there are no ways to prove who the goats are.

Fighters - all great sports entities are a product of their eras --you can only fight or beat who is available during your time. ALi , Marciano, Tyson , Yankees, Packers, Steelers Celtics, Bulls, just depends on the when.

As far as boxing I thought I was a pretty good CYO fighter til I boxed a guy who was in fact a boxer. Ouch!!

Where have you been? I thought you checked out of this thread. I was worried sick about you. Like I said, it's all in good fun - boxers have been teasing MMA fighters and vis versa from the dawn of time. I've never seen anyone get so upset, and take it as personally as you do. I don't understand it.

Maybe some pictures of your girlfriend will clear things up... SmileWavy