Which Sports Sedan Project? Audi? BMW? ???

[piscator]

Which Audi should I refurbish? Or something else? Doesn't have to be Audi.

I’m thinking about a next project after finishing my 911 SC. I’d like to put together an ‘ultimate sports sedan.’ A late ‘80’s BMW 535i is on the list because it remains just about my all-time favorite car, so that gives you an idea of the driving experience I want.

But what about Audi? For this skier, four wheel drive is a real asset. My dad owned a 5000 quattro and that was a great car, although a little big. The Audi 200 turbo fascinates me, but I’ve never seen one. Getting parts might be a challenge, though. If someone has experience with the Audi 200 turbo, I’d love to hear about it!

Or what about a later Audi? I’ve never driven any Audi built after 1990 and don’t even know the model designations. If someone has a favorite candidate from more recent years, let me know! And/Or a candidate of any other manufacturer, Saab, Volvo, whatever.

Most importantly, I want a driver’s car, not a luxury performance transportation capsule. I owned a 1998 BMW 740oil which was very capable, but it imposed too many gadgets and too much complexity. I'd like a manual transmission. And a car I can work on car myself. It doesn't need to have mega-horsepower, but good power, enough usable power is important.

In the ‘Cars With Soul’ thread I asked which cars gave you the feeling you wanted to keep driving them forever. That’s what I’m looking for here. A car that has that nimble, magic quality. But this one needs to have a trunk. If it goes well in snow, that’s an added benefit.

I look forward to your suggestions. My Craigslist searching fingers are getting itchy! :-)

[pavulon]

My vote would be for an LS7 and Tremec swapped into BMW sedan (E28 or E36 M3) but I'm pretty biased.

[BReif61]

If you wanted to go with a BMW, swapping the S54 into an E36 or E46 sedan is a good option.

[Kraftwerk]

Seven Series BMW from the late 80's early 90's is sublime or the 5 series, also worthy.... I think that was the end of great cars you can work on yourself...They made a lot of either so you could buy a parts car, too if you have the room. Not allot of Audi info from me, though I do like them .

[piscator]

Pavulon, BReif61 & Kraftwerk

Very interesting that you all chose BMW platforms! Is there a particular reason why you prefer those to the 4 wheel drive Audi platforms? I grew up a BMW fanatic, owning a 2002, 320i, 325i, 535i, 635i, & 740oil. The 635i and 740oil were spectacular performers, but they felt numb to me.

The E28 and E36 cars that I owned were near perfect as nimble driver's cars, so I certainly agree with you. Either one might well be my next project. But I can't help wondering if there's isn't a four wheel drive car that might give the BMW 3 and 5 series cars a run for there money.

Audi is a manufacturer I don't really know. The rally Quattros are legendary, but the brand doesn't seem to attract the adoration that Porsche and BMW owners have for their cars. I often wonder why.

Thanks for you input, a 5 series BWM is certainly on my list!

I owned a 1984 Audi 5000 manual that I bought in 1987. This was at the height of the Audi "unintended acceleration" hysteria, which tanked the value of the cars--even the manuals, which were not implicated. It was a great car, even in 2WD form. I later drove a 5000 Turbo and thought it was awesome. Never drove a 4WD version, but I'm sure they were great. Definitely interesting cars, too, with their weird 5 cylinder engines, though not renowned for reliability. I'd also worry about parts availability, something of less concern with any of the BMWs.

[Jim Richards]

This looks like fun, and a lot of cubic dollars:
The Quattro Warrior: An Audi 80 Like No Other - Speedhunters

[fanaudical]

Question for you Robert: How much and what type of work are you looking to do to build your ultimate sport sedan?

My opinion: Hot-rodding a later-model Audi is very expensive and difficult. The level of integration present in the controls systems (ECM, TCM, ABS, instrumentation) is extensive. "User upgrades" get pretty much limited to interior, exterior, and suspension changes. For practical purposes, motor mods are limited to chip upgrades, bigger turbos, and exhaust mods. Forget about transmission upgrades.

(OK - I know that there are more mods available for the later cars and they are all very expensive.)

I think the "latest" project I would chase would be to find a urS4 (early A6 styling, 20V 5 cyl turbo, available with manual/quattro, and the ECM pretty much stands alone from the rest of the computers on the vehicle - but hard to find one available).

Otherwise, find a later S6 Avant and bring it back to factory spec. (Plenty of car there.)

On the other hand, dropping an LS motor into a BWM e28 sounds like lots of fun...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Anything newer puts you into modern manufacturing, which equals cheaply made. The last BMW I would consider is an E34, anything else is made of broken and will be an expensive project. An E28 535is would be awesome. I had an E34 540i 6-speed which was basically an M5 minus the engine, that was also a great and rare car.

For an Audi I agree with the above, a UrS4 or S6 would be perfect. Legendary bulletproof 5 cylinder and Quattro AWD, and old enough they aren’t full of electronic gizmos to break. You could also consider a V8 sedan with a manual if you could find one, or maybe the RS2 treatment on a 90?

[Jims5543]

E28 is my favorite 5 series, if you are looking to hot rod one they are out there and reasonably priced.

I think a E28 with a S54 and 6 speed would be an amazing car. I am more of an E30 fanatic, right now I am toiling over supercharging the 2.8 in my E30 (which was always the plan for this car) or yanking it and dropping in a massaged over S54.

I feel like you will get more bang for the buck with a BMW vs. an older Audi. that is just my personal opinion and its worth nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[slow&rusty]

BMW all the way, but this is the only Audi I would consider:

[pavulon]

To me (not an authority), taking on an Audi project would be a much larger commitment ($$$$) unless you were to simply turn up the wick a bit on the original drive train configuration. The quattro system pushes the engine way out front too. I love the sound of an angry turbo 5 with anti-lag though!

A rwd BMW seems to offer a lot more flexibility. As you likely know, the "LS swap all the things" crowd has made that route much more straight forward which would be a lot less $$, frustration and opportunity for project loss of interest or abandonment. Even if you wanted to be a purist, a euro s50 E36 M3 sedan could be pretty amazing and are approaching 25 years old for straight up importation to the US.

[edgemar]

how about something different:

[piscator]

MadCorgi, I share your enthusiasm for the Audi 5000. “Not renowned for reliability” is aptly put. Fortunately, the cars I drove had no problems. I like the 5 cylinder engine. Parts for the turbo version would concern me.

Jim R, WOW! That ‘Quattro Warrior’ hits all the marks! I really like that car, but sadly, my dollars don’t come in cubes! :-(

Fanaudical, your comments are especially helpful and you ask a good question!

I just finished a 1400 hour refurbish of my 911 SC, which was entirely mechanical. I like doing suspension work, engine diagnostics, brakes, wiring, trouble-shooting systems.

I don’t enjoy auto-body work, but I repair fiberglass boats and have some skill in that area. I can pull dents and paint, but I don’t weld, so a car needing extensive body repair wouldn’t be good for me.

I don’t want to start with a basket case, but I wouldn’t shy away from major work. I’d be happy to pull an engine/transmission for service or just cleaning. I’m mainly interested in returning an older car to factory condition. Upgrading the quality of certain components and adding proven mods makes sense to me, but I don’t have the talent to improve on the manufacturer’s engineering.

Yours (and others) focus on where the technology line might be drawn to favor the home mechanic, is very much appreciated! This advice to avoid a later model Audi is well taken:

“For practical purposes, motor mods are limited to chip upgrades, bigger turbos, and exhaust mods.”

The local shop that did my corner balance specializes in Audi upgrades and that’s exactly what they do! The customers come in and talk about “chips, chips, chips, chips” and which exhaust or wheels go best with those chips! I don’t do chips, unless they come from potatoes! :-)

I don’t know the URS4 or the S6 Avant, so I’ll try to study up on those. I have to agree with you though, the more you guys mention it, dropping an LS engine in a BMW does sound like fun!

Matt, your comments are also very helpful!

“Anything newer puts you into modern manufacturing, which equals cheaply made... The last BMW I would consider is an E34... An E28 535is would be awesome. I had an E34 540i 6-speed which was basically an M5 minus the engine, that was also a great and rare car.”

The 535i that I owned was “awesome!” – sure-footed, balanced, nimble – probably the best car I ever owned. But it didn’t travel in snow very well..., except for sideways!

Maybe I shouldn’t make 4wd an issue. It’s not really needed here in Connecticut. But I spend much of the winter in Vermont and plan to move to Maine in the next few years. 4Wd is a big plus in those northern states.

Jim, I think your opinion is worth an awful lot “in the grand scheme of things.” From what I’ve seen, you’re right that the e28 535’s are available and at reasonable ‘enthusiast’ prices. As you say, the BMW is probably more ‘bang for the buck’ – I just wish I wasn’t hung up on the quattro thing.

Slow & Rusty, I love your ‘ole skool’ tag-line – me too!

So, “BMW all the way?” – hmmmmmm…

That’s a handsome, de-badged, Audi, but I’m afraid I don’t know which model it is!

Edgemar, Is that an Alpha? The last one I drove was 1977 sedan! What is it?

With all the enthusiasm for BMW, I’m surprised a later 4wd model wasn’t suggested. Is that because they’re too new, too computerized? I’ve never driven a 4wd drive BMW and have no idea what the handling is like.

Also, interesting that Mercedes didn’t come up. That’s probably because the only manual transmissions came in the 190 and 240 diesel models. That’s what I recall, but there may have been others. And Mercedes was late in the game with 4wd, so maybe those are too new, too computerized as well. I’ve never driven one.

Gentlemen, you’ve made some great comments that I’m going to review and think upon.

[onewhippedpuppy]

A few other things to consider:

RWD cars are great in the snow with snow tires.

Mechanical parts are easy but it’s going to be very hard to find replacement trim and other minor plastic parts for any of these cars. So try to find something as complete as possible.

If you want an interesting Mercedes the 190E 2.3-16V is still a pretty reasonably priced classic. Or you could import a 2.5 Evo from Japan. Or for bonus points find a W202 C36 or C43 and manual swap it.

[wilnj]

It depends on how much prototyping and sourcing you're willing to do.

Hot rodded versions of all of the 80's and 90's BMW sedans are well documented but you won't be as original as an Audi. While I like the idea of a hot rodded M-B, the engine bay doesn't bling as well as the BMW versions.

Here's a benchmark for E28 http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=108450

[908/930]

Another BMW vote here, e28 535 is a pretty solid car, I still have one just for summer use, if you are looking for snow traction find a LSD. Years ago I had a e34 535i with 5 speed and lsd and was excellent in snow (with snow tires).

A turbo to a 3.4L would really wake it up and keep the sound of the inline six, a newer m54 engine with turbo and with a six speed would be interesting but not sure what electronics would be required to run the engine management, and also trying to get everything to fit would be a big project.

[onewhippedpuppy]

There are quite a few options to either turbocharge or supercharge a BMW straight six so that’s really not a concern. Not cheap though!

[piscator]

Gentleman, I’m really amazed that there’s such unanimity for the 535! You’ve just about got me convinced!

Matt,

That’s a really good point! I wouldn’t have thought about trim replacement, but you’re absolutely right! Whatever I look for, I’ll try and find the best example!

I couldn’t remember the model designation, but I saw a listing for the Mercedes 2.3 16v last year and really liked the car. Those other numbers I’ll have to google-foo!

Wilnj,

Thanks for that link! That’s the benchmark, all right! I think you made me fall in love.

As for prototyping, if you mean 3d printing, I’m useless. But I grew up in a machine shop and now do a lot of ‘one-off’ prototyping in laminates, fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc. I can’t design on a computer, but my hands are pretty resourceful at fabricating parts in various materials.

908,930,

Thanks for your vote! As I said, the unanimity is remarkable!

As for driving in snow, I hear ya! I’ve been an avid East coast skier my entire life. I wouldn’t even know how to ski on the powder they have out west! :-)

I’m not entirely unfamiliar with BMW’s in the snow. My past ski cars, in order: BMW 2002, BMW 320, BMW 325i, BMW 535i, BMW 635, BMW 740il. :-)

I don’t think any of them had limited slip, so your point is well taken. Now that I’m retired I can ski any time, so I’m often waiting for a blizzard to drive through, so I can enjoy the best conditions. I used to do that in a BMW, now I do it in a GMC truck! Which is probably the best tool for that job, anyway.

On the subject of turbos and superchargers, I’ve always wanted to experiment with that. It would be a very cool mod for a 535!!

Thanks for your advice!

[piscator]

Hey guys, how 'bout this one?

Also, I forgot to ask -- it looks like the 535 changed body styles in 1989 or 1990. I had a 1987 with the boxier body style. I liked it, but could someone give me a capsule view of what changed on the car in the newer version?