Speaking of Defensive Handguns...

[Jeff Higgins]

All of this talk about various 9mm autos, ammo availability, and all of that kind of got me to thinking. Thinking about a different kind of defensive sidearm... Not the kind one would carry concealed, around town, but rather the kind one might carry in the wilderness. Having gone on a bit of a wilderness adventure with some buddies a couple of weeks ago - three days and nights on what is known as the Washington Backcountry Discovery Route - I thought I would share what I was carrying. First, though, a group photo of us somewhere high up (6.000 feet) in the Cascade Mountains, with Mt Rainier in the background:



This is excellent black bear and cougar (no, not that kind...) country. While problems are quite rare, were were going to be cooking some tasty (and I'm sure quite fragrant) morsels every night and, well, it's just best to be prepared.

Knowing that I was going to be sitting in my FJ80 for 10-12 hours per day, and muddling around every evening with camp chores, I wanted something small and out of the way. It did need to have some real punch, though, and fortunately, I have something that fills the bill perfectly.

This is my custom 3" Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 magnum that a good friend gave me many years ago. Carried in my El Paso Saddlery "Street Combat" holster (actually meant for a 4" Model 29), it was completely unnoticed on my hip the entire time. What a wonderful little packing gun and rig.





The load of choice for this duty consists of a 300 grain gas checked bullet from an LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) mold over a really stiff charge of W-W 296. This load just breaks 1,300 fps out of this revolver. This is a pretty stiff (but not absolute maximum) load - I will not shoot these out of my Model 29's, just my Super Blackhawk and Virginian Dragoon. And even then, I try not to make a habit of it, but not because they are hard on the gun - they are kind of hard on me. Shown for comparison with the "standard" 250 grain Keith semi-wadcutter from the RCBS .44-250K mold, and the (now sadly discontinued) 240 grain Speer half-jacket:





Anyway, something different as far as a "self defense" handgun and load, something we use under far different circumstances than concealed carry. Horses for courses, and all of that...

[wildthing]

How many good shots (center mass) to stop a bear, do you think?

While I don't go out to the wilderness I am willing to consider buying a .44 magnum.

[Geronimo '74]

Looks kind of cute. I bet it doesn’t shoot like it looks.
Discrete, compact and capable. Good choice for your needs during the trip.

[John Rogers]

If it were me going outdoors in bear country I would probably take a BFR revolver in 45-70. My mentor makes half a dozen of these a year for folks going to Alaska or up near the Canadian border.

[vash]

Let’s see the FJ80!

[beran earms]

My thoughts exactly about the 80! I was just working on some build ideas for mine this am.



And I prefer a ruger too, only chambered in .454 casull.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by wildthing

How many good shots (center mass) to stop a bear, do you think?

While I don't go out to the wilderness I am willing to consider buying a .44 magnum.

No revolver is ever going to stop a bear with center of mass hits. Most rifles won't do that either. "Killing" and "stopping" are two different requirements - I've killed bears with both revolvers and rifles, with hits through the vitals, but every one of them has run off, at least a little ways. "Stopping" - like right now, stopping an attack - requires a central nervous system hit. Essentially, you need to brain them. They have pretty impressive skulls, though, which require a fair amount of penetration to get through and into the brain. Tough bullets that don't deform are the order of the day.

Originally Posted by John Rogers

If it were me going outdoors in bear country I would probably take a BFR revolver in 45-70. My mentor makes half a dozen of these a year for folks going to Alaska or up near the Canadian border.

I've chronographed several .45-70 loads through both a friend's BFR and a Contender. For all of the noise and commotion, they manage to really disappoint velocity-wise. Powders suitable for the .45-70 simply require longer barrels to be at their best. Heavy .44 mag or .45 Colt loads with 300 grain bullets will actually out-perform the .45-70 with 300 grain bullets in short barrels. I've seen it myself. That, and BFR's are huge, unwieldy guns. Not bad in a bandolier holster, I guess, but much more obtrusive than a standard revolver on the hip. Cool guns, though, but just not for me. Gotta love the name - "Big Fine Revolver"...

For 400 grain bullets, the .475 Linebaugh will out-perform the .45-70 in a revolver or Contender, unless it's a 14". I actually owned a custom five shot 7 1/2" Ruger Bisley made by Hamilton Bowen in that caliber for a short period of time. 400 grain bullets at 1,400 fps, 450 grain bullets at 1,300 - never again... one of the most useless guns I have ever owned. It wouldn't do anything a heavy .44 mag or .45 Colt couldn't do, but with far, far more blast and recoil. He actually told me to wear a bicycle helmet the first time I fired it... I was glad I listened...

A heavily loaded .44 mag or .45 Colt will shoot clear through a bull elk. Lengthwise. I've done it on a couple of occasions. All you get from the .475 Linebaugh (or .454 Casull and other such monster magnums) is a deeper hole in the dirt behind them. Once we achieve full penetration, with an exit wound, that is all we really need.

I finally concluded, at least for me, that those big boomers are only for showing off at the range or in the gravel pit. I've done my time with a few and have sold them all. Some will actually hurt you, if you shoot them too much. Mr. Bowen warned me of that, admonishing me to hold it to a couple of cylinder's worth on any given shooting session. I couldn't even manage that for my first few sessions with it. I never did hunt with it - it rang my ears so bad even with muffs on that I simply couldn't imagine firing it without, even once. And I can't hunt with ear muffs on.

Originally Posted by vash

Let’s see the FJ80!

Not much to look at - pretty stock '93 triple locker with a 3" Old Man Emu lift:

[vash]

Love the FJ! How many miles on it?

[JavaBrewer]

Purely speculative, I would crap my pants if facing down a bear, so I would imagine my handgun skills would drop to zero. How would a 18" 12 gauge loaded with magnum slugs fair? I can't see how something like that with a sling would be more PITA. Again, no experience here, just asking.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by vash

Love the FJ! How many miles on it?

About 180k. It got a new motor at about 80k, thanks to some kind of a dealer maintenance screw-up. It's been a great truck for me.

Originally Posted by JavaBrewer

Purely speculative, I would crap my pants if facing down a bear, so I would imagine my handgun skills would drop to zero. How would a 18" 12 gauge loaded with magnum slugs fair? I can't see how something like that with a sling would be more PITA. Again, no experience here, just asking.

Probably the most popular and effective bear defense combination. What you gain in effectiveness and ease of use is somewhat of a trade-off for handiness, though. A revolver on the hip is just so much easier to carry and to go about doing other things, plus it's faster to get into action. The revolver is far less effective even with good hits, and much harder to get those good hits. It's all a big trade-off in the end.

[John Rogers]

If I remember Doug tells them to but Garrett 540 hard nose lead bullets. I was told (never shot one) that they are similar to power of a 120 grain black powder load?

[Rick Lee]

I thought SWC were for paper target shooting. I used to reload them and always love the perfectly round holes they punched in the paper. I would think you'd want JHP for big critters, no? I love the Ruger .44mags, but I might carry a cheapo Glock 10mm out in the bush.

[fred cook]

A good choice, gunwise! In that environment, only a 44 mag or perhaps something heavier (?) is needed. My heavy artillery is a Ruger Redhawk in 44 mag with the early short 3.9" bbl. My "heavy" load is a 200 gr solid running at 1600 fps out of the short bbl. That should be enough to brain even a bear! The Redhawk is one of very few revolvers that I would shoot that load out of. I checked with the manufacturer (Georgia Arms in Atlanta) and they said they had tested the hot load in a Redhawk with no issues.

[HardDrive]

I simply don't like the heft of a revolver going over hill and dale. My theory is that you are more likely to have problems with mutant humans than wildlife. I carry my normal compact 9mm (Sig 938).

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I thought SWC were for paper target shooting. I used to reload them and always love the perfectly round holes they punched in the paper. I would think you'd want JHP for big critters, no? I love the Ruger .44mags, but I might carry a cheapo Glock 10mm out in the bush.

Wadcutters were indeed developed for match shooting, cutting clean holes in paper for easier scoring. The (Elmer) Keith style semi-wadcutter, however, is purely a hunting bullet, and generally agreed amongst the handgun hunting fraternity to be the best ever designed for the purpose. I'll vouch for their effectiveness, having shot quite a few big game animals with them from both the .44 mag and the .45 Colt. Their effectiveness is derived form the same action we see on paper - they actually cut a hole, removing tissue along the way. Unlike holes made by bullets without those sharp edges, which tend to close up behind the bullet and stop bleeding.

I will also vouch for the almost utter uselessness of any jacketed hollow point on big game. They simply lack the penetration necessary to get the job done, often mushrooming beautifully on the near side - and pretty much stopping right there. I chased too many wounded animals over far too great of distances when I started out hunting with revolvers, all because of those damn jacketed hollowpoints or soft points.

Even the most powerful revolver cartridges pale in comparison to even somewhat "lower powered" centerfire rifle cartridges. With modern centerfire rifles, we see enough power to both provide for bullet expansion and penetration. With revolvers, we have to chose between the two - there is not enough power for both. Faced with that choice, the only choice is penetration - if the bullet does not get into the vitals, it's useless. I learned that lesson the hard way, as I'm sure many others have as well.

The semi-wadcutter penetrates straight and true, cutting a full diameter hole along the way. This is important, because when hunting with a revolver, we are shooting at something inside the animal, rather than just shooting for the general heart/lung area. Knowing that your bullet is going to penetrate in a straight line, along with knowledge of the animal's anatomy, allows us to shoot from just about any angle with the confidence that the bullet will get to where we are aiming it, be it the heart, the big arteries above the heart, the spine, or whatever. JHP's simply cannot be relied upon to do that - they neither penetrate deeply enough nor straight enough. That, and they often separate the core from the jacket, with both pieces taking their own very shallow path. A hard cast semi-wadcutter, assuming it stayed in the animal and is recovered, will usually look like you could reload and shoot it again - it will be that undamaged.

So, yeah, the Keith type semi-wadcutter is the superior hunting bullet. Much, much better than anything with a jacket on it.

[beran earms]

What a great thread.... Landcruisers and handguns! I want to know more about the white troopie and the red, maybe 70 series.

[on2wheels52]

"... it was completely unnoticed on my hip the entire time."

I assume you mean unnoticed by your fellow travelers cause I sure would notice it on my scrawny hip.
I went down carrying the single action Ruger road (40 years ago ). In a great Bianchi belt and holster, after about an hour walking around the desert it went back in the truck. Krikey, I'm aware when I'm carrying an LCP, but then I'm not a very big 'ol boy. Good thing I'm in a safe neighborhood.

[tabs]

Yeah real nice but when the real men are talkin about Defensive firepower they don't mean Bears they mean the two legged Coyotes, Banditios and other assorted marauders that you might run into.

So the question really is what kind of firepower are you packin for those circumstances?

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by tabs

Yeah real nice but when the real men are talkin about Defensive firepower they don't mean Bears they mean the two legged Coyotes, Banditios and other assorted marauders that you might run into.

So the question really is what kind of firepower are you packin for those circumstances?

If you have the means, I can put you in touch with Chris Dillon here in Scottsdale. He should be able to take care of all your Bandito-stoppin' needs.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by on2wheels52

"... it was completely unnoticed on my hip the entire time."

I assume you mean unnoticed by your fellow travelers cause I sure would notice it on my scrawny hip.
I went down carrying the single action Ruger road (40 years ago ). In a great Bianchi belt and holster, after about an hour walking around the desert it went back in the truck. Krikey, I'm aware when I'm carrying an LCP, but then I'm not a very big 'ol boy. Good thing I'm in a safe neighborhood.

Hehe heh... well, I'm 6'1" and a fairly solid (for a 60 year old) 240 pounds. Grew up as a soccer player, played all through college at a relatively skinny 180 pounds, then my room mate introduced me to weight lifting... that was "the beginning of the end", as I found I had the "genetics". Shoulda started younger... was still benching three plates a side (315 lbs) and squatting 4 plates (405 lbs) for reps into my late 40's. Actually, I never should have started at all, and stuck to my former skinny 180 pound build. Water under the bridge... it does make it easy to carry revolvers like this, however, without anyone, including me, noticing...

Originally Posted by tabs

Yeah real nice but when the real men are talkin about Defensive firepower they don't mean Bears they mean the two legged Coyotes, Banditios and other assorted marauders that you might run into.

So the question really is what kind of firepower are you packin for those circumstances?

My two most often carried "social" (Col. Cooper reference there) guns are my Kimber Ultra Carry in .45 ACP or my Charter Arms Bulldog Pug in .44 Special. Notice the finish is almost gone from the Kimber - I bought that thing new when they first came out. It's got some miles on it, tucked in behind my hip...



If I have a little more "room", like under a dinner jacket or something, it's usually my full size 1911 in .45 ACP or my Model 19 in .357 mag.



And yes, believe it or not, I often carry a 4 3/4" Peacemaker in .45 Colt. I know it only holds five rounds, but it is the handgun I grew up with and am still the most comfortable with. It is an extension of me - it just puts bullets where I think they need to go, with little conscious thought (or so it seems) on my part.