Fun with the 6.5 Creedmoor

[Jeff Higgins]

Just back from a week in Eastern Washington, near the small "town" of Ruff (like Alois...) where my old hunting partner just bought some property. We are building our own shooting range. The furthest target, as it now stands, is a 10" dia AR500 steel gong placed at 800 yards. This has proven to be an interesting challenge.

My long range riflery experience centers upon the old Creedmoor match rifles and "buffalo" rifles of the 1870's. While these rifles are amazingly accurate at those ranges, their sighting systems are wholly dependent upon having targets that are visible through peep sights, obviously with no magnification. The "long range" NRA target, for example, has a six foot diameter black, which includes the "six" ring. The "ten" ring is 20" dia, and the "X" ring is 10" dia. So, essentially, we were looking at a gong the size of the "X" ring. Impossible to even see through peeps at that range.

So, out came his Howa "chassis" rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with its Leupold Mark V scope. This thing has a first plane reticle with MOA graduations on the lower and horizontal crosshairs. Zeroing at 200 yards with a 140 grain Nosler match bullet featuring a very high BC, we found that with 18 minutes of holdover, we could ring that 10" gong fairly consistently.

This is a new game for me to be playing. Moderate velocity, very high BC bullets, and using a range finder along with ballistics charts to calculate elevation corrections for truly long range hits. To me, modern centerfire "long" range has always been something like the .220 Swift, wherein we strive for maximum velocity in an effort to "flatten" trajectories. Well, this only really works at limited range. In the Swift's case, maybe 400 yards (with a 300 yard zero) on larger "varmints" like coyotes. The idea is to hold dead-on, with no elevation compensation, for as long of a range as possible.

Modern optics and range finders have completely changed the nature of this game. Now that we can easily "range" any given target, and adjust the scope accordingly, trajectory is meaningless. Interesting, to me anyway, is the notion that we have gone full circle. Back in the heyday of my beloved long range black powder cartridge rifles, we were forced to adjust sights for long range, for the specific range at which we were shooting. Not too hard when we are shooting very visible targets at known ranges, but kind of impractical in the field. Now, thanks to the wonders of modern technology, we can apply this in the field in a very satisfying way. I've been holding out, but now I'm thinking I may actually "need" a rig like this...

[tabs]

You are not growing any younger...so what are you waiting for?

[oldE]

Although I haven't pulled a trigger in over four decades, I am fascinated by the technology. Having read your post twice, I am going to have to spend some time googling a half dozen terms.
800 yards! That is some serious accuracy.
Am I correct in guessing the round is subsonic? There would be an appreciable pause between "bang" and "clang ".

Thanks for sharing.
Les

[id10t]

Originally Posted by oldE

Although I haven't pulled a trigger in over four decades, I am fascinated by the technology. Having read your post twice, I am going to have to spend some time googling a half dozen terms.
800 yards! That is some serious accuracy.
Am I correct in guessing the round is subsonic? There would be an appreciable pause between "bang" and "clang ".

Thanks for sharing.
Les

The 6.5mm caliber in general uses long skinny bullets with a great BC and will stay super sonic out to 1000 yards and a little further.

I don't have the $ to play at those ranges, nor do I have a range near by to do so on.

But 22lr at 200 yards can get you close to the same experience at a fraction of the price.

[oldE]

Thanks,
I looked up Chassis rifle, BC and MOA. It is coming together in my geeky mind. Now I am reminded why some folks' eyes glaze over when I talk cars. No previous frame of reference.
Thanks again for the education.

Best
Les

[Jeff Higgins]

This newer breed of "long range" target calibers all have one thing in common - quite long, heavy for caliber bullets with very high ballistic coefficients. This "BC" is a quantification of aerodynamic drag, and is used in deceleration calculations which are in turn used in trajectory and wind drift calculations. In a nutshell, the higher the BC (which correlates to lower drag) the slower the bullet will slow down once fired. Velocity plays into this, and has a greater influence upon trajectory than wind drift. Interestingly, higher initial velocities in a given caliber often result in greater wind drift, which is a function of deceleration. But that's kind of getting into the deep end of the pool...

In any given caliber, we are faced with any number of choices in bullet weight and design. It's all a tradeoff - lighter bullets can be started faster than heavier bullets. The old school of thought was to shoot a lighter bullet faster, which has the affect of providing less bullet drop, at least initially, at "hunting" ranges - maybe out to 300-400 yards. Beyond those ranges, the lighter bullets become victims of their deceleration, which is greater than that of the heavier bullets. As a result, trajectory and wind drift increase exponentially.

Heavier bullets must be started slower, so their shorter ("hunting") range bullet drops are greater than that of the lighter bullets. Hunters will shy away from this, seeking to gain a "maximum point blank range" at which they can hold dead-on on their quarry without having to consider trajectory. But, once we exceed those ranges, both bullets will begin to drop enough that the shooter will have to compensate, and wind drift becomes an ever increasing factor as well.

Up until very recently, long range shooters were striving for the best of both worlds - very heavy for caliber, high BC bullets launched at very high velocities (well over 3,000, sometimes 3,500 fps). There are a number of problems with this, with recoil being the most readily apparent - one can't help but notice every time the trigger is pulled. The second, and much more insidious problem, is barrel erosion. Burning lots of powder in relatively small bores (.30 and under) erodes the throats out of these barrels very, very quickly. And the shooter must be very mindful of barrel temperature - heat one of these big boomers up too much and you can ruin it in less than a box of ammo.

These new "long range" calibers take a different approach. Smaller cases with moderate capacity shooting very heavy bullets at moderate velocity, like in the 2,500 fps range. Worries about barrel and throat erosion all but disappear and, due to modern laser range finders and the afore mentioned modern optics, trajectory simply doesn't matter anymore. Not in this game. We simply adjust the scope on the fly, or use the marks on its reticle for corrections. And there is almost no recoil. And, without getting too deep into this, wind drift is actually lessened over that of a larger cartridge case launching the very same bullet at higher velocity. Kind of counter intuitive, I know, but wind drift is a function of deceleration which is a function of drag, which goes up exponentially with velocity.

Anyway, the real salient point is that we have removed concerns over trajectory, and therefore velocity, from the long range equation. This has allowed us to optimize other factors in the ballistics equation, and markedly increase long range effectiveness. We're just not beholden to high initial velocities like we used to be. That's really opened things up for us.

[herr_oberst]

I sometimes wonder if Stephen Hunter reads Higgins' weapons descriptions to gather information for his novels, ha ha!

[vash]

my friend built a a fantastic rifle for deer hunting. he let me shoot it when we crossed paths at a gun range. IIRC the longest distance was 500 yards (?). it was fun, and i was pretty successful sitting behind a solid concrete bench. the optics have come a long way. his was a 6.5 CM as well, and i dont know the model, but it was heavy as hell. nothing i would want to hike into t he back country, like he does. but he is built like a superhero.

i wont play the game because we dont have a readily available range. back home in Texas, we just put the truck in 4x4 and drove deep into the desert hills for free.


now, i parrot the 22LR comment above. 100+ yards is pretty fun.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

I sometimes wonder if Stephen Hunter reads Higgins' weapons descriptions to gather information for his novels, ha ha!

Originally Posted by id10t

The 6.5mm caliber in general uses long skinny bullets with a great BC and will stay super sonic out to 1000 yards and a little further.

Yup. And, granted, we can do this with any diameter bullet. 220 to 250 grain bullets in .30 caliber, 300 grain bullets in .338 caliber, etc. are endowed with the same very high BC's of the popular 140 grain "VLD" and "secant ogive" bullets used in the 6.5's. The difference is recoil. Lots of recoil. And, since this is a target game, we really don't care how hard it hits, just that it hits. The military, of course, cares, so they continue to use the .30's and .338's. Interestingly, though, with new developments in bullet design for their .300 Winchester Magnums, they are dropping the .338 Lapua. No need for it, nor its recoil anymore.

Originally Posted by id10t

I don't have the $ to play at those ranges, nor do I have a range near by to do so on.

I used to have easy access to a local military 1,000 yard range, but that is long gone. Thus my interest in helping my buddy finish his range. It's about a five hour drive for me, so it's at least a several day commitment to make the most of it, but what the hell - I'm retired.

My next task is to make his range "Sharps friendly", so I don't have to invest in all of the fancy equipment to run a 6.5 Creedmoor properly. The glass is the most expensive part, with most of the scopes that are really suitable for this going anywhere from $3k and up. That's just too big of an investment with nowhere nearby to use it.

Originally Posted by id10t

But 22lr at 200 yards can get you close to the same experience at a fraction of the price.

At the height of my long range match shooting, a bunch of us purchased .22 caliber barrel liners from one Lee Shaver. Pretty cool stuff - it's simply a .22 caliber barrel about 20" long with half a dozen yellow foam ear plugs with holes punched through them that are slipped over it to keep it centered in either a .45 or .40 caliber bore. This is screwed into a hollow steel chamber plug that mimics a .45-70 or .40-65 shell casing, and the whole works is simply slipped into the barrel and chamber from the breech end. The actual .22 chamber is offset a bit in this thing, so the rifle's firing pin will strike the rim of the case. The whole setup is very well made and works quite well.

We used these for exactly what you describe - 200 yard shooting. We found that this does, in fact, present all of the same challenges that shooting suitable centerfires at long range presents. It proved to be great practice, and a lot of fun to boot.

[Jim Bremner]

I like watching through the spotting scope when a shot is going the distance.

7.62x51 really does arc and fall into the target at 700 yards. Not as flat as I would have imagined.

I wouldn't mind playing with 6.5 Creedmore but the cost of the round is above my pay grade at this time

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by id10t

But 22lr at 200 yards can get you close to the same experience at a fraction of the price.

When I was about aged about twelve I lived on a farm and we had a tin shed in the middle of a shallow lake. It was about 400 yards to the tin shed. I used to hold the .22 rifle at about 33 degrees, 25 yard to the left for wind. Squeeze off a shot. splash. OK 50 yard to the left.. Keeer...wang, got it. I can safely say a .22 bullet goes 400 yards and that's about it.

[drcoastline]

This is a great Youtube channel. I watched his build videos and spoke to this guy on a few occasions. I was tinkering with building a long range 6.5 Creedmore on a budget.

As the shutdowns set in and everything became unobtainum and super expensive, specifically a left handed action I scrapped the idea for now.