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-   -   Lexus C/OPN Relay issue. (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1074766-lexus-c-opn-relay-issue.html)

Lexus4321 10-16-2020 07:19 PM

Well, I went there initially, but Techstream is showing no activation for immobilizer, and the dash light for security/key is not illuminated when I turn Ign to run/on position. The key batt is not required for the RFID Ign ring to detect a keycode from the key. Key batt is only for the Rf lock/unlock/panic buttons on key.

I am kinda stumped at the moment. Tomorrow I will attempt to verify spark and Injector pulse and injector working.

mattdavis11 10-17-2020 05:58 AM

Is it cranking over and over and over, or cranks fires and dies, or no crank at all?

john70t 10-17-2020 07:33 AM

That was an interesting read which I only skimmed.
-It looked like if the light comes on for three seconds and goes off with normal self test, the immobilizer is okay and something else in the ignition/cranking/fuel system is wrong.
-If the light comes on and stays on after three seconds it's a bunk immobilizer. (but I may have read it incorrectly)

You might want to start isolating:
Get a spark plug tester or inductive pickup or perhaps use OBD2 tester to look at firing line and see if there is actual spark or big pulse. It could be as simple as a bad coil.

Get a Noid light for the fuel injector. If it flashes while cranking, the cam/crank sensor and ecu is telling the fuel injector to fire. Those are 'probably' good. That cuts the problem in half.

If electronics and spark is good go on to fuel. Should be able to test line pressure off the schrader valve on the rail if equipped. See if there is bleedoff/leakdown after 5min which indicates leaking injectors or bad check valve. A plugged filter or pickup screen perhaps will cause low delivery pressure.

Lexus4321 10-17-2020 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattdavis11 (Post 11067631)
Is it cranking over and over and over, or cranks fires and dies, or no crank at all?

There's a vid a few posts back, post #19.

This vehicle has a auto crank, when the key hits that start position you can let go of the key (it sprngs back to run/on location), ECM then attempts to start, and will stop cranking if no start within a few sec (5 or 6 , etc) to save starter and batt, etc.

Lexus4321 10-17-2020 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t (Post 11067729)
That was an interesting read which I only skimmed.
-It looked like if the light comes on for three seconds and goes off with normal self test, the immobilizer is okay and something else in the ignition/cranking/fuel system is wrong.
-If the light comes on and stays on after three seconds it's a bunk immobilizer. (but I may have read it incorrectly)

You might want to start isolating:
Get a spark plug tester or inductive pickup or perhaps use OBD2 tester to look at firing line and see if there is actual spark or big pulse. It could be as simple as a bad coil.

Get a Noid light for the fuel injector. If it flashes while cranking, the cam/crank sensor and ecu is telling the fuel injector to fire. Those are 'probably' good. That cuts the problem in half.

If electronics and spark is good go on to fuel. Should be able to test line pressure off the schrader valve on the rail if equipped. See if there is bleedoff/leakdown after 5min which indicates leaking injectors or bad check valve. A plugged filter or pickup screen perhaps will cause low delivery pressure.

The coil packs should be fine, they all working when I did initial work. I did however install new NGK plugs. Maybe all the plugs are bad, will check him with Noid light.

So, Toyota in their great non-wisdom did not provide a test port or even a fuel pressure gauge/sensor. To test you need a SST and connect it by removing a banjo bolt, which requires use of new washer gasketes for the test, and new washer gaskets after removing the tool. As dumb as it comes.

The front of the fuel rails have a bolt in where the initial CNC is done to bore the rail. I will see if I can adapt a sending sensor there so I can just hook up a gauge when needed.

The fuel pump is a-ok (its new). But I cannot see if the fuel pressure regulator is goofy or not, wont be able to know until a pressure test is completed.

The CAM sensor though has me baffled too. Take a look at this:

If I disconnect the cam sensor connector (right behind the radiator hose) and try to start it, ECM does not throw a DTC. <---- odd.

But, OEM wiring diagram shows it a bit different. The diagram shows only two wires sensor side. So what's that 3rd wire for?

HARNESS (female pin connector)
red--------green----green-black
|................|................|
white-----green--------red
SENSOR (male pin connector, the bottom connector in the sensor pic which connects to harness)

Using ohm meter (quality Southwire DVM, I also have a Fluke, etc) on sensor pins only (switching meter leads on every pin set, etc). Is this a good or bad sensor? Maybe its a powered Hall sensor and not a simple 2-wire coil pickup? "green" below is more like a darker green, etc.

White+ Green- = 0ohm
White- Green+ = 754ohm
Green+ Red- = 451ohm
Green- Red+ = 1126ohm
White+ Red- = 0ohm
White- Red+ = 1892ohm

https://i.postimg.cc/FHx3Zbnq/cam-sensor.png

https://i.postimg.cc/yxqDBWbc/cam-sensor-pic.png

john70t 10-17-2020 09:39 AM

(apologies for having forgotten most of my book learning from 20 years ago. layman here. I'm just throwing spaghetti at the wall.)

Aren't there:
1. pulse type (piezoelectric)
2. hall- effect (magnet transfer) minimum 2 wires could be 3 i think.
3. blade-interuptor (magnet or light/laser) minimum 3 wires

per the first diagram:

I'm guessing that's a powered Hall and white/black is power in a loop off the ECU. Probably 5-9volts.

NCA/BRN leads to J/C 26 and then to "EG" ground. That could be the signal output.
The second pic shows a red wire. But you have a green wire...
Is that the immobilizer?

Lexus4321 10-17-2020 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t (Post 11067875)
(apologies for having forgotten most of my book learning from 20 years ago. layman here. I'm just throwing spaghetti at the wall.)

Aren't there:
1. pulse type (piezoelectric)
2. hall- effect (magnet transfer) minimum 2 wires could be 3 i think.
3. blade-interuptor (magnet or light/laser) minimum 3 wires

per the first diagram:

I'm guessing that's a powered Hall and white/black is power in a loop off the ECU. Probably 5-9volts.

NCA/BRN leads to J/C 26 and then to "EG" ground. That could be the signal output.
The second pic shows a red wire. But you have a green wire...
Is that the immobilizer?

The J/C 26 is a ground plane (shield) around the sensor. Well, it's shown like that in the schematic. You also notice in the 2nd pic that a bare wire comes out of the wire bundle and is crimped to the metal housing. I think this too is also a shield wire that only shields that extension wire between harness and sensor, etc.

The 2nd pic is not immobilizer, it is the CAM sensor in it's holder/mount with the extension wire. The extension passes through a rubber grommet in the upper plastic cam gear cover, where it then connects to the harness connector.

Lexus4321 10-18-2020 08:18 PM

Skip my Q about the cam sensor.

Little not-so-known fact, Toyota made two gen's of GX's for NA market, the GX470 (2UZ-FE) 2003-2009 then came the GX460 (1UR-FE) in 2010.

Here's the deal though, 1st gen got some major changes in 2005, including dual vvt-i. Along with that the types of sensors changed to.

2003-2004 , then major changes in 2005, yet they still call the 2003-2009 the "1st gen GX470's". In my opinion 2003 to present is three gen's of GX's.

So, what does it all mean? It means the wiring diagram I was looking at is for the 2003-2004 GX's, those vehicles use 2-wire cam sensors !

Lesson learned.

john70t 10-19-2020 05:48 AM

A good OBD2 scanner will tell you if the cam sensor is pulsing when cranked. (plus everything else of course)
You need to find if it's sending a signal.

Not sure if a DVOM will do it right off the sensor but it's worth a try.

One of my auto tech profs talked about back-probing sensors while attached:
Run a thin needle through the insulation and alligator clip off of that. Check with Ohm meter first for connection.
A drop of liquid electrical tape will seal it back up.

Lexus4321 10-19-2020 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t (Post 11069763)
A good OBD2 scanner will tell you if the cam sensor is pulsing when cranked. (plus everything else of course)
You need to find if it's sending a signal.

Not sure if a DVOM will do it right off the sensor but it's worth a try.

One of my auto tech profs talked about back-probing sensors while attached:
Run a thin needle through the insulation and alligator clip off of that. Check with Ohm meter first for connection.
A drop of liquid electrical tape will seal it back up.

I have the Techstream software, but I don't see any live data for cam sensor. The service doc shows to probe the G wires at the ECU with a scope.
I have a batt powered bench scope, I am setting up to probe it.

Got the cut mess all back together, even wiped the weld area underneath with an epoxy to help prevent rusting.
Then added some KilMat under the feet and seats.

https://i.postimg.cc/dVxD5T4F/fuel1t.png
https://i.postimg.cc/vThZf1cp/fuel2.png
https://i.postimg.cc/Jntsxzcv/kilmat.png

Lexus4321 10-21-2020 05:27 AM

I put my scope on the cam sensor signal wires (G2+ and G2-) but do not see any recognizable signal, yet my Noid light on #5 did light up 3x during cranking. 3x on Noid means the crank would have had to go 3x 720deg (6 full crank rotations), but I don't think it cranks that long. Odd.

mattdavis11 10-21-2020 05:54 AM

Have you checked the EFI relay? If my 1991 Cruiser won't start, it's the first thing I check.

Lexus4321 10-21-2020 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattdavis11 (Post 11072538)
Have you checked the EFI relay? If my 1991 Cruiser won't start, it's the first thing I check.

I think I have checked relays and fuses like 6x already. The vehicle was working 100% before any work started.
The work done was to do some simple maintenance to the 2nd air pump crap that's under the intake. At that time I had to clean out the intake because it had oil from PCV laying in bottom of intake, I then replaced the fuel injectors, and installed new plugs.

The 'new' injectors came from a 2007 107kmi 2UZ-FE Tundra wreck (ebay), they are OEM injectors, I then sent them to RC F.I. in CA to be serviced. The report shows they were fairly bad, but after service the report shows them good & matched.

I will now go probe some injectors, check ohms, hear them click open, probe the wires to make sure they are getting turned on.

I made some break-out patch wires so I could probe cam sensor w/o stabbing the wires.
https://i.postimg.cc/7LVWsg86/camwires.png

cam sensor appears to be ok.
https://vimeo.com/470649421

Lexus4321 10-21-2020 11:41 AM

Fuel injectors appear to be stuck closed. Not sure why, have to call RC.

fastfredracing 10-21-2020 12:07 PM

You sure you have not pinched a wire, or juxtaposed a few connectors when you had the plenum off? It happens to the best of us sometimes.
You need to be looking for batt+ at the injector, then look for pulsing ground at the other side of the injector . Follow the ground back to the ecm, or follow the hot side back to the fuse box, or whatever relay powers them up . If you apply power and ground to an injector, it should make an audible click.

asphaltgambler 10-21-2020 05:36 PM

I need to say this, please dont take offense. You are way down a rabbit hole at this point. Something's changed since the initial work. As Fred has asked, something pinched or connected/ cross-connected. You may ( have created) a CAN bus problem when reassembling through human error.

It's odd the car sat for a few days and the battery died. In that situation the battery may be in an extreme low state of charge- it appears dead but still has residual voltage so all capacitor memory remains.

We've all been there. All of us that do problem solving whether it be mechanical or say, mathematical go off path. It's hard to get out of that. From your posts it seems to me some basic testing by eliminating ( with absolute certainty) has been guessed or not completely ruled 'yes' or 'no'.

Have you considered a second opinion by expert diagnostic guy with a Pico scope?

Lexus4321 10-21-2020 07:43 PM

Solved
 
6 of 8 injectors were stuck closed ;)
I bumped them with 30v from my benchtop power supply to un-stick them.

I spoke to RC tech support, this sheet happens from time to time. Nothing to worry about after they un-stick.

Problem solved.

My batt never died ;), it was on a Minn Kota the whole time. I took neg terminal off batt for a few days.
Pico scope? I have portable (batt power) benchtop scope, but it no Pico ;) , post #33 ;)

I always consult with 3 people,....... me-myself-and-I ;)

john70t 10-21-2020 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asphaltgambler (Post 11073682)
Have you considered a second opinion by expert diagnostic guy with a Pico scope?

I checked out some of the the Pico Scope videos and it is awesome.

$1,000++ is a big price tag but that investment works out over time for those who wrench at home.
Their website, documentation, and interface features could use a few more user-friendly tweaks, but it looks to be a powerful tool still.

Find the source of road vibration. Find electric component flaws. Find relative compression. All with hooking up a few sensors and running some tests. No throwing a pile of parts at an unknown problem. And clean hands stay clean.

You notice in the video he points out problems such as the starter motor probably skipping a beat, and the #1 cylinder having over-spec compression and possible causes.
-This is not pointed-out by the software itself and there is some theory applied there which requires mechanical experience.
-All of those could be added as pop-up warnings or highlighted by the software as readings out of normal.
-The entire program routine could be customized by selecting from a simple job menu at the very start and graphs/scales are preset for easy reading.
-The job menu could have stock pictures for which sensors to use and where to attach them. It could even go deeper into standards for each model of vehicle.
-With all 4 sensors attached, it could run multiple diagnostics automatically all at the same time.
-Even better hypothetically would be plugging only one simple plug into the 16-pin OBD2 port and getting it all, but I think the refresh rate on those are too low for these tests.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LEzkoF-gAn4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If you have the time to sit in on discussions by the pros..."Trained by Techs" is also a channel worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6pKbmHz16uocON8ZZTj44w

Lexus4321 10-21-2020 09:00 PM

Agreed, a shop needs a Pico or MicSig. But I no shop ;)
My tools can do all the measuring, I do all the thinking.

But duly noted, I no see where a Pico can tell you that you have a stuck-closed fuel injector. I made a test cable (cause I have extra toyota-denso style injector connectors) and started on #5 to see ohms, that looked good, then I did the batt test, no clicky. Ut-o, is it really stuck? Made call to the place that serviced the injectors, got info, bumped them with voltage higher than batt, just kept bumping the 1st one in +1v increments until it popped loose, about 28v seemed to work, just went around the horn using 30v. Vehicle runs great.

Lessons learned, and new fresh parts installed. Overall, me just tired & happy ;)
Geez, even found that the valve covers were 120ohms to body ground! Why? I dunno, but the covers had nice free threaded hole on them, so now they are zero ohms to batt-.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gif

john70t 10-21-2020 09:15 PM

[insert cheers emoji times infinity]
Well done sir.


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