PMR Spoons

[DavidI]

Anyone into Precision Match Rifles? This is my MasterPiece Arms bolt action chassis rifle chambered in .308 cal. She is glassed with a Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5x27x56 riflescope. I named her "Isabel" after one of my late grandmothers.

So far, I've ranged her at 800 yards, but she can reach out much further. It's tough to find ranges with the distance though.

Rock on, David

[Jeff Higgins]

Very nice rifle, David. I really appreciate PMR's for what they represent - the ultimate development of the modern long-range rifle. One of these days I'm going to have to explore them. I'll have to admit, up until very recently, they have actually kind of turned me off - I'm a traditional blued steel and walnut kind of a guy - but these have really been growing on me lately. It's one of the very few shooting niches I have yet to pursue. When I do head down this path, I will probably start with something "out of the box", like the Savage or Ruger chassis rifles. Just going to stick a toe in the waters before I dive headlong into this.

So, one question - why .308? The various newfangled 6.5's seem to be all the rage these days. It's kind of tough to get a heavy, high ballistic coefficient .308 diameter bullet properly up to speed with the small-ish .308 case behind it. Most long range .30's these days are .300 Winchester or Norma magnums. Granted, there are proven bullets that will hold sufficient velocity from the .308 all the way to 1,000 yards, like the Sierra "Palma Match" bullet (and I'm sure plenty of others), but most guys are looking for a bit more powder capacity to drive heavier bullets.

And, yes, finding a place to shoot at those kinds of ranges is getting ever more difficult. Up until about 10-15 years ago, we had access to a 1,000 yard range at Fort Lewis, where I shot a lot of black powder cartridge rifle matches (and even managed to win many of them). Civilian access has, alas, been closed down. There are a few ranges in my area that still host 600 yard matches, but even those are maybe once or twice per year. And no access to the long range firing line except during matches. So, yeah, it's getting tough to play this game, which is one of the reasons I'm a bit hesitant to start putting together a rifle.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

So, one question - why .308? The various newfangled 6.5's seem to be all the rage these days. It's kind of tough to get a heavy, high ballistic coefficient .308 diameter bullet properly up to speed with the small-ish .308 case behind it. Most long range .30's these days are .300 Winchester or Norma magnums. Granted, there are proven bullets that will hold sufficient velocity from the .308 all the way to 1,000 yards, like the Sierra "Palma Match" bullet (and I'm sure plenty of others), but most guys are looking for a bit more powder capacity to drive heavier bullets.

Sierra palma is able to shoot 1000, but it's not really great at it for a scoped rifle
It's very sensitive to wind at those ranges.. It's a compromise bullet for the Palma match regulations which originally was with service rifles , match sighs (no scope) and high twist rates (1:12 or 1:14)

It's for shooting matches with a high daily shot count so lower weight was good for barrel life and the all day long shoulder massage when shooting prone.
The bullet wind drift with a match sight some what less of an impact on the result then then the shooting position , sling vest, and aiming with the match sight is.
Target rings on such matches are huge..Not like you would shoot at with a scoped rifle

For a scoped rifle, most modern barrels have lower twist, eg 1:10 and can stabilize bigger pills.
the 175 SMK or the more recent TMK is muuuuuuch better then the 155 Palma at them ranges.

IF your barrel can stabilize 175's, then don't bother with 155 palma bullets you'll just waste your time.
I had a 26 inch 1:12 and they stabilized just fine for me .. shorter barrels will probably need 1:10

Why 308, well , many ranges won't allow higher energy calibers. They'll list 308 or 3006 as the upper limit.
which in many cases means normal ball load 308, 3006 .. modern hand load 308 or 3006 with modern powders can be much higher energy then normal ball and is often not compliant to those regs..
but those kind of things are hard to enforce at the firing point.

[Jeff Higgins]

Great info, Stijn, thank you. This stuff is waaaay "out of my wheelhouse", and I'm quite sure anything I think I might know is very dated by now. I did shoot service rifle a few times as a "side match" at our 1,000 yard black powder matches, but I was using a borrowed M1A. It's been all of 20 years, but I'm pretty sure my buddy had loaded that Palma Match bullet for this duty.

I do remember my time in the target butts when these modern centerfires were shooting with us. Many, many of the .308 and .30-'06 rifles were going subsonic somewhere along the way. Very distinctive sound as the bullet cleared the butts - they sounded like little buzz-bombs going overhead. Few of them actually hit the targets, and when they did, it was usually sideways. I think a lot of them were the venerable 168 grain Match King. Great "over the course" bullet for normal high power or service rifle competition out to 600 yards, but they totally lost it at 1,000 yards from the smaller capacity cases.

[svandamme]

I shot palmas out of my 1903a3 out to 900.. 1000 was hard cause well sights only go to 800
aiming at top of target with sighst at 800 got me out to 900.. for 1000 i had to aim at top of the berm.. not very repeatable

At 600 i was printing a tight circle at the edge of the bullseye, prone, irons , sling
when my buddy next to me shot 6.5 laser.. shot just inside my ring
Bloody Belgian Bastard he said when he saw that.


My M1A likes them palmas too, but those bullets are a bit to nice to shoot semi auto out of magazine.

With good powder they'l stay supersonic well past 1100 , even 1200, which a 168 match king normally won't do out of a standard 308 case

Personally if i had to get another scoped rifle, I'de get a long action chambred in 3006.. 1:10
Maybe a 24 inch (26 fits my Cayman in the rear, but only just, it's a bit of a wiggle)
Bit more options for handloading with the bigger case

I knew I guy who shoots 308 out of a 36 inch or so monster long barrel.. his ballistics are close to matching 338 LM
(i think by now former) marine sniper in Holland , but in his spare time he lugs that huge stick around.. for really long range shooting. 2km stuff with solid turned copper bullets and what not

[DavidI]

I did a lot of research about the various precision rifle out there. One of my teammates has a MPA chambered in 6.5 Creedmore. It is incredibly precise and a joy to shoot; however, the ammunition is crazy expensive. He can hit 1600 yards so far.

I decided to purchase a MPA chambered in .308 because of the cost of ammunition, the limited amount of ranges beyond 800 yards, and my familiarity with the load. I plan on shooting from either the prone or from a tripod. This will also include inclines and declines! I use the Mildot Master for these calculations and range the distance with the MRADs.

With the riflescope, I usually use holdovers. I selected the EBT-7C MRAD reticle. The "Christmas tree" is awesome after understanding how to do holdovers.

It is definitely a thinking person's game, especially estimating windage holdovers!

[DavidI]

To verify drop, I downloaded both the "BallisticsARC" and "StrelokPro" apps on my phone. After ranging a target, I verify with my Vortex Rangemaster to confirm. This is another one of those skills that takes time to master.

I am a life-long student, David

[Jeff Higgins]

It sounds like you did the research and bounced what you learned off of your requirements, including cost and realistic ranges available. Good on you! Too many folks just buy whatever is trendy and whatever sounds "tacticool", and wind up with something less than ideal for their needs.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

It sounds like you did the research and bounced what you learned off of your requirements, including cost and realistic ranges available. Good on you! Too many folks just buy whatever is trendy and whatever sounds "tacticool", and wind up with something less than ideal for their needs.

+1

As in many hobbies, the rabbit hole is very deep.
one can fish with a stick , a bit of wire and a hook
shoot with a .22 and irons
cycle on a regular bike
reload with a single stage press.

But there's always some gadget the industry wants you to get.
in whatever hobby it is
That better shooting mat
the better reel
the better sling
the 5 stage press with bullet and case feeder and fancie dies and neck turner, annealer, ultrasonic case cleaner and complimentary blowjob


That's what drives the growth economy

[Jeff Higgins]

This is a very difficult sport in which to introduce anything truly new and actually useful. The rate of change is very slow - is there any other sport, hobby, vocation, occupation - whatever - that employs mechanical devices wherein one of the very best for purpose was designed in 1911? Or 1903/1906?

Believe me, I've played this game long enough to see many highly touted "innovations" come and go. Way too many "revolutionary" developments that no one even remembers have come and gone in my time. And that's why this one has kind of gotten my attention. The PMR, or PCR (or whatever acronym we want to apply) appears to actually be a notable step forward. The whole package - rifle, optics, apps, instrumentation - all of it working together - has dramatically increased first shot hit probability at extended range. I like that. A lot. From a lifetime shooting geek's perspective, it's all very intriguing.

This is my long range match rifle. I've pretty much ignored about a century and a half worth of development subsequent to when this thing was the "latest and greatest". None of that development interested me - until now. I've got some ground to make up between this 1874 Sharps in .45-100, with its cast bullets and black powder. That's kind of exciting, though. Not many shooters' lifetimes actually span any kind of useful new development...

[dlockhart]

A couple of my track-retired racer friends got into the long range stuff and they tend to go all -in with their hobbies. I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw them doing it.
https://americanshootingjournal.com/king-of-2-miles/

I'm building a AR 10 6.5 and hopefully one of them can get it out to 1 mile for me. That's a long reach for a gas gun and 6.5 in any platform.

[DavidI]

Jeff, that is a beautiful rifle...tried and true.

dlockhart, I went through Sniper School with an AR-10 (Sig 716G2, Sig Tango 6, and Sig Suppressor). It did very well and the weakest link was me. I outshot a few of my teammates who were using Tac Ops Delta 51 rifles. I was very surprised at the utility of that rifle. The only thing that I did not care for was the trigger. It was a 2-stage, but felt like an M-4 trigger. If that were "worked" that would be my choice because of the follow-up shot opportunities.

[John Rogers]

This is a 45 caliber muzzle loader I shoot 110 grains of Goex FFG under a 540 grain paper patch bullet and last fall shot it at the 600, 700 and 800 yard ranges over in AZ. I had to add one of those super recoil pads as it only weighs 12 pounds. I was using tang sights.

[dlockhart]

Originally Posted by DavidI

Jeff, that is a beautiful rifle...tried and true.

dlockhart, I went through Sniper School with an AR-10 (Sig 716G2, Sig Tango 6, and Sig Suppressor). It did very well and the weakest link was me. I outshot a few of my teammates who were using Tac Ops Delta 51 rifles. I was very surprised at the utility of that rifle. The only thing that I did not care for was the trigger. It was a 2-stage, but felt like an M-4 trigger. If that were "worked" that would be my choice because of the follow-up shot opportunities.

I sprung for a Elfmann
https://www.elftactical.com/elf-3-gun-ar-15-drop-in-trigger

The tool maker in me was shocked at how sloppy the Elfmann was.
I can do better if needed.

I'll swap barrels and bolts until we get there. They seem to be the issue with stretching out a "gas gun".

I imagine a situation where putting rounds down field rapidly is more important than a fraction of moa .
Any one can do pretty well just buying a Ruger https://www.ruger.com/products/precisionRifle/models.html

and expensive optics

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by dlockhart

A couple of my track-retired racer friends got into the long range stuff and they tend to go all -in with their hobbies. I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw them doing it.
https://americanshootingjournal.com/king-of-2-miles/

I'm building a AR 10 6.5 and hopefully one of them can get it out to 1 mile for me. That's a long reach for a gas gun and 6.5 in any platform.

2 miles serious biz, Coriolis comes into play
guns starting to look more like cannons
Huge glass
BIG PILLS and a free shoulder massage at each squeeze of the trigger.

My longest shot was 1375 meters with 300winmag..
it was a first shot hit, no doubt thx to the windcouching of the norwegian besides me .. reading wind in a fjord is very close to black magic..
It's not like in a green flat area with leaves and trees. or a desert in the morning when there is no wind.

Shot was a hit, i figured, no way to improve on that.. and called it a day

[Nostril Cheese]

Originally Posted by DavidI

Taking out coyotes in the backyard? Very nice rifle.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by DavidI

Jeff, that is a beautiful rifle...tried and true.

dlockhart, I went through Sniper School with an AR-10 (Sig 716G2, Sig Tango 6, and Sig Suppressor). It did very well and the weakest link was me. I outshot a few of my teammates who were using Tac Ops Delta 51 rifles. I was very surprised at the utility of that rifle. The only thing that I did not care for was the trigger. It was a 2-stage, but felt like an M-4 trigger. If that were "worked" that would be my choice because of the follow-up shot opportunities.

I think if I ever do pursue this aspect of shooting, I might have to attend one of the civilian "sniper schools" (I'm sure you attended yours while in the service). There are a number of them available these days. I kinda sorta understand all of the lingo and the concepts and technology involved, and I have to think I could figure it out in time, even if left to my own devices. Or I could simply waste a lot of ammo and develop some bad habits...

One of the reasons I got into the long range black powder match game was to fast-track that learning curve. Nothing like shooting with and against experienced competitors to gain a great deal of knowledge very quickly. And one of the beauties of this game (actually any sort of match shooting) is that everyone is more than happy to tell you what you need to do to beat them next time. No "secrets" - everyone shares their hard-earned wisdom very freely with one another.

Originally Posted by John Rogers

This is a 45 caliber muzzle loader I shoot 110 grains of Goex FFG under a 540 grain paper patch bullet and last fall shot it at the 600, 700 and 800 yard ranges over in AZ. I had to add one of those super recoil pads as it only weighs 12 pounds. I was using tang sights.

I wear a "strap on" (no, not that kind... ). My match rifles all have steel "shotgun" style butts. My "mid-range" rifles are both NRA legal silhouette weight - under 12.4 pounds, or something like that. Both are .45-70's (one a C. Sharps 1875, the other an original Ballard Pacific), and their loads feature either the 540 grain Paul Jones Creedmoor or the 550 grain Hoch over 60-65 grains of Swiss 1.5 Fg. The "long-range" rifle, the Sharps 1874 shown above, uses the same bullets, but over 80-85 grains of the same powder. It weighs about 13.5 pounds.

Recoil over long strings get very tiring from any one of these rifles. I had no trouble dealing with it in my 30's, 40's, and early 50's, but I just turned 60. And I have arthritis/bursitis in my "shooting" shoulder (I think I know where that came from... ).

So, yeah, a "long-range" rifle in something like .308, one of the trendy 6.5's, or whatever - weighing 12 pounds or more - is starting to sound better and better. Oh, don't worry - I'll never give up the black powder stuff - but an option that's a bit easier on these old bones sounds pretty darn appealing.

[svandamme]

Bursitis is brutal.. have had a few bouts of that in my hip.. painkillers don't do jack.
cortisone is the only thing that worked for me.. took it out in 1 day and it stayed away for 2 years after..

[tabs]

Hmmmm...Notice the Airedale in the top pic..she knew I was mad at her..

[billybek]

Originally Posted by tabs

Hmmmm...Notice the Airedale in the top pic..she knew I was mad at her..

She knows that you have guns.....