Pro BTC people point to the upward trending volatility and say; see... so smart to buy. -an investment. But that is not centered on the utility of BTC, or other crypto's.

Is anyone buying BTC for utility? -other than diversification of tulip bulbs.

I mean, it's not like a BTC holder can pay the pizza guy with BTC.

This reminds me of the pyramid schemes of the 80's. All the people who hold a position encouraging the easy money for others, buy in now!

The only thing you are buying is trust that someone else will buy your share of the nothing for more in the future. And buy, paradoxically, with USD.

You are not wrong but there is a chance that crypto will get a lot more popular in the foreseeable future if it stays untraceable and facilitates private and untaxed transactions. I've never personally used it but that is what I see as its appeal.

I get that it has some stealth, (so too a Swiss account, or handing over gold coins) but it's not untraceable now. And, as I understand, there is a transaction cost.

As far as it going up, sure. Just look at the valuation on Tesla stock. So many people looking for a place to park excess cash, that excess cash pumps up everything.. Again, that's pyramid building, IMO, not investment. Investment has tangible future utility.

Also, a *tell* is in the marketing of BitCoin as a gold coin, that people mine. - that imagery is to project a gold-standard backing on something with no such backing. (there is the opportunity) The BitCoin marketing subtext actually speaks to the "intrinsic value" of gold. --Imaging if these BitCoin where called BitTulip and had a picture of a dirty old tulip bulb.

Of course that is not to say that BitTulips could not see stratospheric rise in price. "investors" doncha know...

The other attractive thing about crypto currencies like BTC, ETH, etc. is that their supply is limited. Unlike fiat which governments continue to print more and more of. Cryptocurrency is Proof of Work (PoW) or Proof of Ownership (Staking). Some coins like Etherium or Hive have utility on their respective networks, others are just being created as cash sinks (Kanye's coin, Doge Coin, other ICOs). Some have actually done well to become commodities of exchange like Monero and Raven. They are growing in "value" rapidly because fiat currencies are decreasing in value.

We haven't had a "standard" which backed our currency in 5 decades. And given the popularity of cryptocurrency now having exchange value globally, it's no surprise that wealthy whales are are starting to shift cash value there.

Yeah, let me know when Buffet sells his rail to buy BTC.

Whales always dabble. Musk has money thrown at him ... he throws excess at various targets.

[QUOTE=island911;11297500]

I mean, it's not like a BTC holder can pay the pizza guy with BTC.
[QUOTE]

It's absolutely hilarious that you use that example to try and make your uneducated point😆

Please, expand your understanding. I would like to know the transaction cost.

Because as I understand it, there would be maybe a $20 transaction cost on that $16 pizza.

https://www.coindesk.com/saving-bitcoin-high-transaction-fees

Looks like a great way to pay for a pizza. :rolleyes:

hmmm... still nothing.

I'm beginning to think that biosurfer1 was just looking for an opportunity to hurl an uneducated barb. :-/

I mean, I'm certainly no expert on BTC. Never claimed to be. So if I (or anyone) posts something wrong here, correct it. Being a barb-hurling ass helps no one.

Mr. Biosurfer was referring to the famous $10M pizza, or whatever it would work out to now. The first transaction ever done w Bitcoin was a pizza purchase and the amount of BTC they gave the delivery guy would buy a house in Malibu now with enough left over to fill the garage w new Bugattis.

Thanks speeder, but how does that make my point (about transaction costs) uneducated?

This BTC thing is overly complex and expensive to transact, but at least it's highly volatile.

What was the average transaction fee a year ago? $0.39

The transaction fee fluctuates depending on volume, it's only high right now because of mass hysteria around bitcoin currently.

The price of lumber currently makes building a house out of wood look like stupid way to go, but of course that price is artificially inflated right now too.

No, I just have a job and can't be a non-stop post whore like some people🙄

It was hilarious because the most famous bitcoin transaction ever was a pizza delivery.

What about gold? You see a lot of pizza delivery guys accepting gold for payment?

So... transactions cost a lot because people are transacting a lot . . because it is a good investment, because in the future, people will be using it to make lots of transactions...

Can you spot the flaw?

Can you spot the solution?


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1618503506.jpg

LOL

so you CAN spot the flaw, but chose to pretend that you didn't lose the point/argument.

Some 1995 vendor putting up a sign for a minimum purchase... Seriously? :D

First, No one does that anymore. CC transaction fees have evolved. And even then, it was not a $10 transaction fee on a pack of gum. BTC has transaction fees based on transaction volume. THAT is a fatal flaw.

But not for U Bio.. U should buy up as much as U can. So very smrat!

I’m neither pro nor con on Bitcoin.
I am pro making money, and for that I thank Bitcoin:)
But long term, I’m skeptical.
I don’t see how the govt can in the long run allow a currency that competes with the govt currency. The US govt’s main business is now printing currency. All of its power and control comes from that. I hardly think that will be relinquished.

So, yes, although I hold a boatload of Bitcoins, I do believe a crash is coming.
The question, as always, is when?

Island, BTC is a chit way to purchase anything and not meant as a efficient way to purchase. BTC is a long term hold that will continue to appreciate. MC has broken 1.1T.
What if you wanted to send $10,000 to your Mom in Germany. Good luck, will take about 3 days for her to see her funds, cost about 7% and a chit ton of paper work. Enter Stellar (XLM). Take a minute to send from your desktop, boom, hits her account in a matter of seconds (half way across the planet) for a fractions of a penny. Take a look at stellar.org or ripple.com (XRP). You have the major card companies joining up with these companies and tech to process payments because it fast and cheap. DeFi has the banks by the nads now and they have admitted change is coming.
I keep mentioning, but it is still early in the game. There are so many things happening outside of BTC. Fun times
One more thing speaking of defi, how would you like to earn 10%-50% on your money? Take a look at AAVE, Compound Finance, Yearn. You can purchase crypto, put it out there to lend short term or long and get paid serious returns. I am still learning, but my returns are spectacular. Keep in mind, I started messing around with play money doing this, into 6 figures now.

LOL, ok.

Yep, you found it, the "fatal" flaw that will take down bitcoin and render it useless. Clearly you are smarter than everyone else:D

Yep. That is the same question for every pyramid.

No doubt a fascinating one. I'm always amazed by the size of the free-lunch crowd.

Thanks Skillet.

Take note, bio. That is what a well reasoned, useful post looks like.

Which part? The gains have to be declared with the IRS, otherwise that's a crime (felony). Tether is a leading coin and it would appear to be relatively difficult to convert it back to USD?

-Wayne

I'm neither pro or con Bitcoin. I'm very well aware of how it works technically (being a computer programmer), and what exactly it is. As discussed in my earlier posts, I think that Bitcoin is version 1.0.0 and there will be some better solution in the very near future. Possibly the new Facebook sponsored one. We'll have to see.

But, there's a flaw in the valuations that we're seeing here too, I believe. If one person sells a home in a neighborhood of 100 homes for $1M, does that make the whole neighborhood worth $100M? No, it doesn't, because if all of those homeowners decided to sell in one day, the law of supply and demand would kick in and the prices would plummet. In a similar manner, thinly traded stocks, currencies, etc, can widely affect the market. Bitcoin is a virtual asset - it's 100% dependent upon the mindset of people perceiving value to it. If this perception begins to change course or fade, then there will probably be some significant price swings. BTC could go to the moon, who the heck knows, but it is very likely to be a very volatile / turbulent ride.

Then again, no one really knows...

-Wayne

What does the value of this piece of paper depend on?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1618507809.jpg

Agree 100%. There are similarities. But the US dollar is far more accepted by people than Bitcoin, that's for sure. Same rules apply - if the rest of the world all of a sudden doesn't have confidence in the US dollar, it will also fall. But the US dollar is obviously in a different league than Bitcoin and actually has some business, momentum, and support behind it. Also using the US dollar as an argument for explaining Bitcoin is a bit of a straw man argument?

-Wayne

I don’t think it’s a straw man, it’s only directed to the point that both have no intrinsic value and are dependent on the mindset/agreement of those giving it value.

Currency that Germans agreed had great value in 1920 was used for kindling and as kids’ playthings in 1923, that of course is just one of many examples of currency going worthless.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1618511722.jpg

Again, it is of course not predictable, but I don’t believe in the long term viability of Bitcoin, or any other cryptocurrency outside of the complete control of the Govt., long term. It’s competition and the Govt doesn’t like competition.

People who believe Bitcoin is “out of the reach” of Govt are IMO kidding themselves. The Govt has unlimited power, which is only growing daily.

:) Just yanking your chain! Intelligent people (like you), don't like the mention of the straw man! :)

I will say that comparing Bitcoin to the US Dollar is a bit like comparing a radio controlled car to a real Porsche 911. Similar in concept, but scope and scale are orders of magnitude different on nearly every level. At least at this moment they are - I guess that's the whole argument / belief.

Who the heck knows what the future holds. As for me, we're continuing to invest in real estate right now. Vacant restaurants to be specific. There are some good properties that are selling at a big discount right now.

-Wayne

Exactly. The key words are “at the moment.”

Investing/speculating is of course all about the future, not the moment.

Bitcoiners see a future where a Big Mac = $100 USD and 1 Bitcoin = $1 million USD.

In that world the radio controlled car grows up and the real one shrinks, to where they are equal, or maybe even switch positions.

Plus 1 McLovin.

IDK why we see this so often, its as easy as converting stocks back into fiat...

You literally just send your tether to your exchange wallet on Binance, and trade roughtly one to one to USD... I have done it many times with not so small amounts and it is easy... I could do it back and forth every second, all day if I wanted to pay the exchange's fee over and over again...

I really don't get where this mindset of it being hard to exchange coins or tokens back into fiat comes from, it is not based in reality.

BTC and crypto is evolving as well. Solutions to all these issues are being worked on, will it work out? Who knows. I think the other poster's point was just that you seem to not know much about the subject yet have a very hardened opinion.

I was simply pointing out that gains do not need to be reported when not generated. -- your post presupposes gains.

Yep. And I agree with Wayne that a better system will likely arise and MySpace BTC. Perhaps a gold-backed version, but really, the various "wallets" have a leg up. IMO.

Well, BTC is evolving as well with things like lightning network ect. Not sure what you mean by "wallets" in this context, as all cryptocurrencies have wallets, no one in crypto wants a gold backed anything in my opinion, BTC is seen as the exchange currency already and its volitility will continue to fall over the coming years. I do not think any currency will dethrone BTC due to its first mover status, reserve and exchange status, store of value factor and the credibility of basically 12 years of secure network with no down time. Others are already better than BTC at many individual use cases, but none have the whole package that BTC offers. It'll be an interesting next 20 years.

Dogecoin was started as a joke. A meme. NOT REAL.

But some people didn't quite get the joke and it's trading at 35 cents last I checked.
The market cap is $45,945,147,508, for something that ISN'T REAL.
The circulating supply is 129,210,007,256 and my understanding is that they can mine as many as one wants, because they are ....a meme.

People invested in something that did not exist, and other people joined in because we all deserve to be wealthy for doing nothing, right?
How high does the price have to go before it stops being fake and starts being real?
It's the ultimate pyramid scheme.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/dogecoin-price-tracker-updates-as-joke-cryptocurrency-hits-record-high/ar-BB1fItbF?ocid=uxbndlbing


That's what I mean about the emperor's new clothes.
If enough people PRETEND cryptocurrency is real, and keep saying it's real, then it will continue to deliver results as if it were real. But it isn't. All it takes is for the honest people to stand up and say "I don't see it".
Maybe that will never happen, or maybe they'll be ignored and the rest will happily go on pretending their way through life.

If you want to be the star trek guy in the red uniform, it's your biddness. Out.

For one, doge is as real as any other currency, but everything else you said about it is mostly correct, except its not unlimited mining, its like 10,000 per minute forever, so its technically deflationary as the inflation gets smaller and smaller as a percent of total coins every minute. But yes its a joke and anyone seriously interested in cryptocurrencies would acknowledge it as a joke and should basically have no value. But thats also, to me at least, showing how small the cryptocurrency world really is right now, even with all these billions in the market, one Elon tweet pumps 35 billion dollars into doge from retail previously unacquainted with crypto...... shows you how small the market is and where it could still go if cryptocurrency gains major, real world adoption.

I’ve been mining BTC for about 3 years now, (except summertime when the heating issue takes over. My miners keep my shop warm October through May.

I mine in a pool and transfer it to my coinbase wallet. I can convert the BTC into USD with a click and transfer it to my bank account with another click. The only hassle is the tax reporting. What’s the basis for a dollar generated out of thin air?