This is where you guys are sort of wrong.

IF you transfer BTC out of a secure wallet, this fee does exist. It is a verification that this Bitcoin is legit because it was essentially taken offline.

However... using other methods you can transfer chunks out of the secure wallet paying that fee, into a less secure provider like coinbase, and pay out of there without additional fees.

The analogy is this. It costs $30 to open your safe regardless of how much you take out and put in your wallet. So the smart man takes out enough to distribute for what he needs, but not so much that if his Wallet is stolen that he’s bust.

ATM fees are similar, it costs your $2.50 to take out your cash. ..so you take out more to pay that fee less often.

That's a relatively straightforward question. Like any other business:

- The % annual depreciation of the equipment used to create it.

- The electricity used to create it.

- A portion of the Internet access services.

- A portion of the "home office" real estate allocated exclusively to the creation of the asset.

Etc.

Think of it like a farm in your backyard, and you sell the produce at a local farmer's market. Really no different.

Actually, the only difference would probably be if you never convert the digital coins into USD. In that case, they would be similar to inventory, like if you were producing wine and letting it sit in your cellar for 5-10 years. But with the crypto, I would imagine that it would be difficult to justify "losses" from the creation of the stuff if it's never quite converted into currency. I don't know how a startup wine manufacturer would allocate their startup losses for several years before they sell - might be a specialized area of farming accounting?

-Wayne

So, the "Bitcoin" that users have on "deposit" with Coinbase, is actually held specifically by Coinbase, and not by the individual user? That seems similar to PayPal, where you have a "balance" with PayPal (denominated in USD), but since PayPal is not a real bank, it just shows up as a liability on the PayPal corporation's balance sheet. In the case of PayPal, if something goes wrong with the company (bankruptcy, fraud, etc.), then the "account holders" would become mere creditors at a BK hearing. It's for this reason that I made sure we swept 100% of our PayPal balance into our bank account every night (they have a "secret" unpublicized tool for large customers that will do this automatically).

Seems like Coinbase is the same thing? They hold your crypto themselves, but then give you an "account balance" that you can then easily use and trade within their system (much like PayPal?).

Other than being denominated in dollars versus crypto, what is the main difference then between a company like PayPal and Coinbase?

-Wayne

U mean like a Marijuana plot out beyond the Black Stump..

LV casinos are now thinking about adding Bitcoin as an acceptable currency. This shows you exactly how far the USD has fallen into disrepute. Several years back the casino operators would have laughed at you if you suggested Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is just another worthless FIAT CURRENCY...the flavor of the day...Why would anyone take a Bitcoin..it has NO TRACK RECORD..The USD goes back to 1790 and up until the idiots now in charge got a hold of it it has been the Rock of Gibraltar of currencies..

How any of you out there can think that you are not fked in the azz is beyond me. The FED has now stopped reporting M1 and M2 Money supply on a monthly basis...what happened to transparency?

Partisan politics since 2012 has just been white noise to distract..the FED is in control of your daily lives, they are the adult in the room that keeps the lights on and the trains running. Now they have former FED Chairman Yellen at Treasury in the WH. Don't you think Powell and Yellen talk regularly to coordinate activities?

There is a reason why Empires and Civilizations collapse and that is people just don't pay attention nor realize that the ship is sinking beneath their feet until the water is up to their knees..by then it is too late and they start to panic.

Shytebitcoin is a presumed lifeboat..to get off the sinking ship USD.. Now that is a succinct bit of clarification now isn't it...that no one seems to have illuminated before..now have they?

Tabby? You nailed it! Fiat currency with added tulip mania...Ponzi would be proud.

So, this is a fundamental problem with nearly everything. In a nutshell, and after one thinks about it for awhile, nearly every asset is "fake". Money (fiat currency) is fake (only supported by the government behind it). Real estate also is technically fake (again, only supported by the government / courts / army behind it). Gold - it's a pretty worthless material in the grand scheme of things. It's shiny and pretty, but out in the wilderness or on the frontier in the old days - basically not useful for *anything*. Water is useful, but water rights are also fake (again, supported like real estate by the government, courts, and the "army" behind the government). Collectible cars? The value in them is limited to their usefulness as a mode of transportation - anything above that is a perceived value.

Once people start to think about this in the terms of what is real and what is not real, it either makes things way more confusing, or way more complicated.

Yes, Bitcoin is fake - it doesn't have any basis in anything. But so is nearly every other asset class. Now, some are more "fake" than others, and some have tremendous historical precedence for use as a currency / store of value (gold and silver).

I don't pretend to know where this is all going. All of this deficit spending could be very bad, it could be irrelevant. One thing I've learned over the years is that no one really knows, and even the smartest people generally have no clue in the end. Kind of like strapping yourself into a roller coaster seat - once that bar comes down you have no control of your destiny.

Fun discussion though...

-Wayne

Careful, the FED doesn't like competition when it comes to counterfeiting currency...

This is exactly right.

Bitcoin works because to put coins & paper money into the internet it has to be transformed or somewhat translated, a purely electronic currency gets in/out quicker. Yet it also has an 'agreed upon value' like paper money and coins. Something like bitcoin will always be in the mix now that we have computers, electricity and the need for commerce to be separate from governments and currencies with vastly different values. A form of 'computer dollars' are here to stay, bitcoin itself could tank entirely, but it has a pretty good foundation I guess, backed up by a mad genius and a super-computer (!) in the end, it's just a tool 'to move stuff' around.

You have your own unique wallet but coinbase is still only an exchange, and should only be used as such. Most cryptocurrency users who subscribe to the ethos of bitcoin go by "not your keys, not your coins" and do not keep any serious amount on an exchange. Coinbase has the sk to your accounts, you do not.

Exchanges are just a convenient stop along the way, if bitcoin becomes an acceptable form of payment they will be needed less and less. For example, hundreds of bitcoin are traded locally every week in Venezuela, where their fiat has become unreliable due to hyperinflation. Millions of USD worth of BTC traded locally, peer to peer every week where the monthly minimum wage has dropped to about 1 usd.

This is why the "greater fool" and "ponzi" arguments against btc are funny, because if you applied the loosely defined arguments from these people to any of the assets you listed, the same conclusion could be found.

Gold - it's a pretty worthless material? That's ridiculous. Like saying that Titanium is worthless.

Overall your argument is that everything is worthless if you cannot defend it. (water rights, property..) Of course cars are in the same category then. --you don't actually own any cars Wayne, they own you. (see how that works? - I know you do.)

Anyway, one "value" truth remains; people are constantly chasing what has value to them. If, for example, you have been free-diving for a bit too long you will chase the value of the air existing at the water's surface. From there we go in to the hierarchy of needs. As we travers that hierarchy we get to the relative "values" of Beenie Babies and ghost money markers.

I have read so much doom porn about the coming collapse, I believe a lot of it, but it has been so propped up at this point they cannot let it go. If it get's away from them, you will see the great global reset. At that point, nothing really matter anyway.
Meanwhile, my crypto , real estate and equity holdings continue to rip. Crypto is absolutely crushing any gains in my other assets, 600% anyone? Tulips or not, the gains are there in black and white.
Look at the current price of BTC today, you would have been called an idiot if you called this price 6 months ago. Well, every 4 years there is a halving that cuts in half the supply of BTC. When that happens, price booms. Happened in 2017, 2021 will happen again in 2024-25. BTC price will explode again. To what? $300,000-$400,000? Who knows.
BTC is the gold standard of crypto currently, but such a little piece of the huge pie. I have mentioned Stellar XLM and Ripple XRP, De-Fi projects. Take a look at Flare Networks. This is the chit that is coming that make substantial wealth, 4 ways to earn while increasing the value of the tokens. It takes time to learn, makes my head explode trying to wrap my head around how some of these projects actually work, but the payoffs are incredible for learning. Will say it again, still so dang early in the game.

Just to be clear for everyone, mining reward per block is cut in half, not total supply.

I believe in any collapse of the US Dollar or the governments of the wold the one true currency will be bullets. A hamburger my cost five 9MM rounds and everything will be priced as rounds of ammo.

All the silly post apocalypse movies have the bad guys shooting bullets like they were free. Of course they always all miss the hero.

I just wonder if the current ammo shortage is just so many people stocking up.

Bullets from WW2 are still 100% effective. It is just rather heavy and hard to move around, but they will always have value.

Ammo: Lots of supply chains are slow r/n, tell it to the auto-makers, hardware stores, bicycle shop's etc. Ammo would be a currency, only for those that have use for said ammo. If you need shot-gun shells and all that guy has is 9mm well both are s.o.l. and if there is nothing to kill, demand decreases.

I saw an article yesterday that figured if someone put each of their three stimulus checks in to dogecoin, it would be worth $251,000 today.

the block chain is the thing

BTC is just a surface that the crowd sees, and is unimportant

My brother just cashed out Doge about $90,000. He bought when it was under 5 cents, as did I. I'm still sitting on mine...pocket change compared to what he had.
He's also sitting on 45,000 xrp

Know someone who has 900,000 doge, after already selling some. He started at $0.007. At one point had 9,000,000.

Apparently the answer to this thread title is : week of April 18

Party's over...the Ponzi scheme is revealed...nothing but a scam.

or, just another day in the crypto world:D

Lol.... from $3k to $65k in a year, crash to $50k, its obviously a failure, nothing to see here... :)

Been hearing it from the no coiners for years. Stick to your gold and silver. For me, I hold equities, real estate along with crypto. I am making money across the board, but by far, crypto is on a rampage. There is a lot more to this than Bitcoin. Will update soon.

https://www.businessinsider.com/plattsburgh-new-york-cryptocurrency-mining-ban-2018-3

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1620072659.jpg

Cryptocurrency Mines Consume More Power Than Argentina

Wow.

BTC holding at 56K. Damn, gloom and doom. Check out smartlands.app (SLT). .32 in January, now at $19.00. Real estate listings coming Wednesday of this week, Tier 1 exchange coming, data center partnership announced today. Easiest damn money I ever made. Check out the staking of tokens on smartlands. Flare networks coming in a couple months ( this is huge, watch youtube), spark token. My head is swimming trying to keep up with it all, happening that fast. Showed my wife gains tonight since October, she was shocked I tell ya.
There are literal millions to be made here fellas if you have a small stack to work with and are patient.

Keep in mind, at the end of 2024, early 2025 those miners get cut in half what they earn. What just happend to cause the spike in BTC, same as 2017. 2024-2025 will be another parabolic rise in BTC. Keep Stackin Bicthez!!!

Clearly you didn't get my sarcasm

Watched this vid. from Raoul Pal. He explains what I have been trying to say. What is happening in the digital/crypto space and at the pace is mind warping. The amount of money to be made is staggering. It is very early in adoption, massive opportunity. The play is 1.5 hours, but can watch at x 1.5 speed easily.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0tJrla31t8I" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But, what if nearly all of the gains come from leverage placed on existing bitcoins? A leverage ratio of 2:1 invested back into Bitcoin, would then theoretically double the value of bitcoin, without any fundamental increase in utility of the currency?

-Wayne

Isn't that what is happening in the stock market, with stocks near their all time high P/E ratios?

Yes, I believe so. But margin interest in stocks is more regulated than crypto, from what I know. You can indeed put $$$ into a brokerage, take the money out on margin, take it to another brokerage and lever up by doing that 5-10 times. On the crypto exchanges, some have been offering 125:1 leverage which is extreme...

-Wayne

You did not watch video Wayne. 2016 BTC MC was 14B, today BTC MC is 1.1T. 5 years from now, will be parabolic. Everything will be digitized, money flowing into this space worldwide at an astonishing rate. He mentions, BTC, ETH, Real Estate, Technology, NFT's, etc...Everything will be digitized. Payment systems, a whole different world. Were are talking 100T-300T asset classes and crypto only at 2T.
Will say it again, like buying Apple, Walmart, Microsoft in it's infancy. Will be losers and winners, choose wisely.

It could be. Or it could be eToys.com, or Pets.com, or [insert any one failure here].

I don't have an hour and a half to spend on something like this, but here's the transcript:

http://www.rdwdevelopment.com/temp/bitcoin.txt

I also think that the energy usage for mining Bitcoin is absolutely terrible, and perhaps the worst thing to happen to the planet in decades. Nearly everyone who promotes Bitcoin refuses to admit the scope of this issue.

-Wayne

Bitcoin is self regulating. The energy cost to mine was supposed to trigger innovation and reduce profitability of mining to the point of being unprofitable.

..however as long as people bid up, its price to keep mining profitable despite the terrible energy cost, it will continue.

How to stop it? Quit speculating and let it move to it’s equilibrium point.

China invited in some tech Companies to set up the biggest nine in the World. After it was running, in operation tablulating, the Government threw those Companies out of their Country.

They are doing alot of that. They screwed Saleen, had him bring over his designs, next generation cars, energy efficient crap, and as soon as they had his stuff, they ended the partnership and kicked him out.

I think China will dominate this shortly.

THIS ^ is a strong point. The overhead of Bitcoin is ridiculous. The utility is just not there. Some say this is the next MSFT, but how? MSFT brought great utility to the masses. Bitcoin, not so much. I get the speculative Ponzi side of crypto, but the business side? No.

The total MC of Crypto is around 2.4T, BTC is around1.1T, just about half of total. It is the wild west, but if you research what is happening, this is where things are heading. There are fortunes to be made here. So much fokking money and development flowing in.
BTC is the headlines, but so much more happening is this space. Crypto is only 5% of my net, but up 600% in 7 months.

Hold BTC, ETH, XLM, XRP, SLT, AAVE, UNI. Look them up yourself on coinmaketcap, 6 month returns. Numbers do not lie. I receive 21K spark tokens for holding XRP in June, Flare Networks launch, with another drop shortly after drop. There is a chit ton ways to earn with staking. BTC is store of value, but so much more money to be made in utility. Yep, I purchased another 25K of BTC today at 58K knowing full well could drop to 20K. See ya Jan. 2025.

"Numbers do not lie." Sure. But your whole argument misses my fundamental point; there is no reasonable utility in Bitcoin.

your whole argument could be applied to tulip bulbs, back in the day. PLENTY of savvy speculators made big money on tulip bulbs. They talked up the value of this or that species tulip bulb, and how they clearly knew what they were talking about, just look how many of those fabulous tulip bulbs they had acquired. -"Numbers do not lie."

I do not disagree with you regarding utility and bitcoin. Bitcoin is a highly speculative savings account for me. There will be another halving at the end of 2023, I'm betting on spectacular, but who knows. The majority of my gains are coming from coins/tokens/projects that do have utility and that are taking place on a global scale. I own rentals and equities to make money. Just another asset class now that has amazing potential to make a chit tonne of money on.