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Wayne 962 05-16-2021 05:03 PM

Interesting static over the weekend. Bloomberg article today:

Quote:

Bitcoin Tumbles After Musk Implies Tesla May Sell Cryptocurrency

Elon Musk continued to whipsaw the price of Bitcoin, briefly sending it to the lowest since February after implying in a Twitter exchange Sunday that Tesla Inc. may sell or has sold its cryptocurrency holdings.

Bitcoin slid below $45,000 for the first time in almost three months after the billionaire owner of the electric-car maker seemed to agree with a Twitter post that said Tesla should divest what at one point was a $1.5 billion stake in the largest cryptocurrency. It traded at $45,270 as of 5:51 p.m. in New York, down about $4,000 from where it ended Friday.

The online commentary was the latest from the mercurial billionaire in a week of public statements that have roiled digital tokens. He lopped nearly $10,000 off the price of Bitcoin in hours last Wednesday after saying Tesla wouldn’t take it for cars. A few days earlier, he hosted “Saturday Night Live” and joked that Dogecoin, a token he had previously promoted, was a “hustle,” denting its price. Days later he tweeted he was working with Doge developers to improve its transaction efficiency.

Musk’s disclosure in early February that Tesla used $1.5 billion of its nearly $20 billion in corporate cash to buy Bitcoin sent the token’s price to record and lent legitimacy to electronic currencies, which have become more of a mainstream asset in recent years despite some skepticism.

His latest dustup with Bitcoin started with a tweet from a person using the handle @CryptoWhale, which said, “Bitcoiners are going to slap themselves next quarter when they find out Tesla dumped the rest of their #Bitcoin holdings. With the amount of hate @elonmusk is getting, I wouldn’t blame him...”

The Tesla chief executive officer responded, “Indeed.”

The twitter account @CryptoWhale, which calls itself a “crypto analyst” in its bio, also publishes a Medium blog on market and crypto trends.

Mr. Whale: Bitcoiners are going to slap themselves next quarter when they find out Tesla dumped the rest of their #Bitcoin holdings. With the amount of hate @elonmusk is getting, I wouldn’t blame him…

Elon Musk: Indeed


Musk has spent hours Sunday hitting back at several different users on Twitter who criticized his change of stance on Bitcoin last week, a move he said was sparked by environmental concerns over the power demands to process Bitcoin transactions. He said at the time that the company wouldn’t be selling any Bitcoin it holds.

An outspoken supporter of cryptocurrencies with cult-like following on social media, Musk holds immense sway with his market-moving tweets. He has been touting Dogecoin and significantly elevated the profile of the coin, which started as a joke and now ranks the 5th largest by market value.

Dogecoin is down 9.6% in the last 24 hours, trading at 47 cents late Sunday afternoon, according to data from CoinMarketCap.com.

Tesla didn’t immediately respond to an email seeking comment on Musk’s tweet on Sunday.

Musk’s Sunday social-media escapades were the latest chapter in one of the zaniest weeks in a crypto world famous for its wildness. For die hards, the renewed slumps in Bitcoin and other tokens have done nothing to deter crypto enthusiasts who say digital coins could many times their current value if they transform the financial system.

“We’re looking at the long-term and so these blips, they don’t faze us,” Emilie Choi, president and chief operating officer of crypto exchange Coinbase Global Inc., said last week on Bloomberg TV about the wild swings prevalent in the market. “You’re looking for the long-term opportunity and you kind of buckle up and go for it.”

Seat belts were needed by anyone watching the crypto world in the past eight days. Aside from Musk’s antics that sent Doge and Bitcoin on wild rides, a host of other developments pushed around prices.

Tether, the world’s largest stablecoin, disclosed a reserves breakdown that showed a large portion in unspecified commercial paper. Steve Cohen’s Point72 Asset Management announced that it would begin trading cryptocurrencies. And a longstanding critique of the space reared its head again: illicit usage.

Full article: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-16/musk-implies-tesla-may-sell-or-has-sold-bitcoin-holdings?sref=OIIo8i2e

-Wayne

Wayne 962 05-16-2021 05:07 PM

Elon quoted this article in his tweet:
https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/amp/

Quote:

How much Bitcoin comes from dirty coal? A flooded mine in China just spotlighted the issue

The recent accident showed just how fragile, and how environmentally damaging, the Bitcoin supply chain can be.

One of the great Bitcoin unknowns has long been the amounts being produced, or “mined,” in what’s believed to be the top locale for mining the signature cryptocurrency: China’s remote Xinjiang region. We got the answer when an immense coal mine in Xinjiang flooded and shut down over the weekend of April 17–18.

The blackout halted no less than one-third of all of Bitcoin’s global computing power. “We’d seen estimates that high, but this shutdown confirms them,” says Alex de Vries, an economist who runs the website Digiconomist, which tracks Bitcoin’s energy consumption. “We also learned that the area in Xinjiang where all that mining happens is much smaller than previously believed. It underscores China’s dominance in Bitcoin mining, and that dominance raises big security concerns.”

The Xinjiang accident highlights that Bitcoin is a creature of fossil fuels—principally coal, the dirtiest of them all. Its rise is even providing a lifeline for the fading natural-gas industry. In the U.S., miners from New York State to Kentucky are repurposing obsolete facilities to supply the cheap power they cherish. That Bitcoin spreads a carbon footprint bigger than Australia’s, and that the run-up in its price could triple the carbon dioxide it spews, so far doesn’t seem to bother the famous otherwise-green enthusiasts feeding the craze, from Elon Musk to Gwyneth Paltrow.

On April 11, the first news reports emerged that the Xinjiang mine had flooded, trapping 21 workers underground. The miners were rescued, but over the following weekend, authorities reportedly halted production while conducting a safety check, stopping shipments to power plants and causing a blackout. By de Vries’s estimates, the “hash rate,” the pace at which miners run algorithms to compete for fresh releases of Bitcoin, plummeted around 35%. Some in the Bitcoin community blamed the upheaval for hammering the price of the cryptocurrency by 14%, from a record $64,000 on Friday, April 16, to $55,000 on Sunday the 18th.

It’s by no means certain that reports of the accident pounded the wildly volatile coin. But the loss of computing power did trigger a sharp drop in the network’s capacity for handling transactions. Over the weekend, the cost of making a payment with the cryptocurrency or receiving a transfer of Bitcoin jumped from around $16 to $52, according to de Vries.

The incident raises the issue of just how much Bitcoin is being mined in China, and what proportion is produced with electricity that’s generated using coal and other fossil fuels. But a major revelation is the extreme concentration of production in a tiny area. Xinjiang is a vast region of mountains and deserts in China’s far northwest corner that’s one-third larger than the nation of Colombia. The ancient Silk Road linking China to the Middle East wound through these remote lands. The Fengyuan mine is situated in Hutubi (population: 210,000), one of the smaller of Xinjiang’s 61 counties. Aerial pictures show what appears to be a sprawling modern facility cradled in a deep mountain valley. The photos show rail lines for transporting coal to a power station apparently serving Hutubi and nearby counties, but the plant’s name and location aren’t disclosed in news reports.

Prior to the flood, most experts thought that Bitcoin miners operated in many parts of Xinjiang. But the shutdown exposed that almost all, if not 100% of production in the region, is flowing from Hutubi and three neighboring counties powered by coal from the Fengyuan mine.

De Vries notes that more than a dozen other Chinese provinces host Bitcoin miners. It’s impossible to say how much of that additional power outside of Hutubi is created by fossil fuels, he adds. Inner Mongolia has been a popular destination for its cheap coal-fired electricity, accounting for 4% of the world’s Bitcoin production, according to research by Cambridge University. But the province is imposing a ban starting in May in an effort to reach clean-air goals. It’s not clear where the displaced miners will relocate, but it’s probable they’ll be looking for venues that burn fossil fuels and hence charge bargain rates.

In the southern provinces of Hunan and Sichuan, miners link to hydro power. But de Vries estimates that green sources account for a tiny share of the Chinese energy being used to churn out algorithms to capture the next release. “The miners usually dislike renewables because they don’t generate electricity all the time,” he says. “They want to run 24 hours a day. The number of machines is constantly going up. The more machines that are running, the greater the decline in the proportion of Bitcoin a miner can capture.” That means miners tend to earn less Bitcoin over time—so they don’t want to miss grabbing all the tokens they can while the grabbing is good at these fantastic prices. Plus, their machines become obsolete quickly. To get the full benefit, miners need to run their banks of computers around the clock. “Green energy is a terrible match for Bitcoin,” says de Vries.

Overall, de Vries reckons that fossil fuels power around 70% of all Bitcoin mines worldwide, and that coal provides the vast majority of that share. “We now know for sure that one-third of all production runs on pure coal from a tiny place in China,” he says. The quintupling of Bitcoin’s price since last fall, he predicts, is bound to multiply both the overall energy deployed, and the use of oil, natural gas, and especially coal. The annual revenue from mining has swelled from around $5 billion last fall to $23 billion. Right now, operators whose equipment churns 24/7 are feasting, since it’s tough for rivals to butt in. Among the factors blocking new entrants is a severe shortage of semiconductors, limiting production of the ASIC computers that run the network.

Still, that logjam is easing. Rising prices have lifted Bitcoin energy consumption by one-third from a year ago. De Vries predicts that at the current price of around $60,000, annual electricity output needed from mining will almost triple from 102 terawatt hours annually to 284 terawatt hours annually over the next couple of years. Even at current rates, Bitcoin devours the equivalent of 2% as much energy as the U.S. uses, 10% of Russia’s consumption, and 31% of the electricity generated in the U.K. If Bitcoin’s usage jumps as de Vries forecasts, the coin would use three times as much power as his native Netherlands.

Miners are going to unusual places in search of the cheapest power that’s also reliable—and that’s almost always fossil fuels. Since sanctions constrain Iran from exporting oil, Tehran is developing a new market inside the nation’s borders by luring Bitcoin miners with super-low energy costs. By some reports, Iran now accounts for 8% of the world’s Bitcoin production. Kentucky’s rural coal fields are becoming a magnet for miners. Lawmakers in the Bluegrass State are proposing two sets of tax incentives: one for buying and upgrading existing power plants, and another break on electricity purchased from the grid, much of it produced from coal. In February and March, two Bitcoin operators in New York, one in the Finger Lakes and another in Buffalo, announced they were buying old plants to generate electricity in-house.

That authorities in both states favor giving new life to fossil fuels speaks to Bitcoin’s new status. But it will be interesting to see whether the CEOs and celebrity backers who’ve done so much to elevate Bitcoin begin to sour when its carbon footprint multiplies in size. De Vries points to another potential peril. It’s now clear that one-third of all the world’s Bitcoin-mining power masses in a single hotbed of our archrival, China. He fears that if tensions between the U.S. and China escalate, Beijing could use the equipment in Hutubi and the rest of China to paralyze the network, halting all transactions. That shutdown would wreak havoc with the hedge funds that hold Bitcoin and the corporations piling the coins into their treasuries.

Joining the rocks-to-riches Bitcoin journey as a miner or investor has long been the most daring of adventures. Now the flood in Xinjiang is highlighting the phenom’s weakness as a big-time polluter and China’s control over what’s touted as a new bulwark of the U.S. financial system. The Bitcoin journey winds through the jagged landscape of Xinjiang, and recalls the dangers of traveling the old Silk Road.


ShopCat 05-16-2021 06:43 PM

Its best to ignore the tweets of elon, each bull run of crypto has multiple 30% drops along the way. I might buy more this week, we'll see.

biosurfer1 05-16-2021 07:30 PM

Funny that going from $64k to $45k is "tumbling" when a year ago it was less than $10k.

aigel 05-16-2021 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biosurfer1 (Post 11334044)
Funny that going from $64k to $45k is "tumbling" when a year ago it was less than $10k.

Tell that to the guy who bought at 64 ...

ShopCat 05-17-2021 07:21 AM

Best bet for anyone is to hold if you can afford it. The most conservative estimates put bitcoin number of users at the equivalent of 1997 internet.

Racerbvd 05-17-2021 07:24 AM

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1621265035.jpg

Wayne 962 05-17-2021 07:55 AM

Indeed, the optics for Elon in the eye of Bitcoin / crypto fans looks terrible. But, we all know from history that he doesn't have a publicist and doesn't really think carefully about what he says too much in advance.

-Wayne

ShopCat 05-17-2021 10:27 AM

Also, I would bet Tesla did not sell any more than their liquidity test from a few weeks ago. We will know next quarter for sure but Id put money on it. Aren't they still operating their node? .

john70t 05-17-2021 11:30 AM

Explore and take risks with discretionary funds.
But meanwhile hedge and diversify to known factors.

The only true and proven means for at least partial survival. imo

john70t 05-17-2021 11:34 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_as_Debt

(I no longer consider Wiki or YouTube as trustworthy)

McLovin 05-17-2021 06:59 PM

Elon Musk coming in with a 100s of billions $$ pump and dump on Bitcoin. Can’t say I saw that coming.

sc_rufctr 05-17-2021 09:55 PM

I remember him complaining about people shorting Tesla... :rolleyes:

Wayne 962 05-17-2021 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11334436)
Best bet for anyone is to hold if you can afford it. The most conservative estimates put bitcoin number of users at the equivalent of 1997 internet.

Sure, but again, I will voice my opinion. I see Bitcoin as the MySpace or AOL of the Internet. Version 1.0.0 - destined to be replaced by something remarkably better within the distant future?

-Wayne

dewolf 05-18-2021 12:15 AM

No financial expert by any means, but there's one thing I do know. If there is millions to be made, someone will make it work. Might take time, but it will happen. Someone once said that no one would want a computer in their homes. Now we carry them everywhere.

ShopCat 05-18-2021 02:48 AM

Elon tweeted that Tesla have not sold their bitcoin.

Like I said earlier, in terms of users, Bitcoin is at 1997 internet with the most conservative (generous) estimates. It has a long way to go, if it can make it.

Idk if there is something "better" to come along and replace Bitcoin, has anything replaced gold in 1,000 years? Not saying its gold, just that sometimes, things hang around. There are certainly better crypto currencies for tx speed and tx cost that have been around for years, but they sacrifice security. If one could solve the blockchain trilemma (decentralized, secure and scalable) it may become king. So far you have to sacrifice at least one for the others. Bitcoin is ultimately secure and decentralized, but not so scalable.

sc_rufctr 05-18-2021 02:51 AM

To be honest I don't know what to do...

What I don't understand: How can something be worth something if you can't point to it or hold it in your hands?

ShopCat 05-18-2021 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 11335384)
To be honest I don't know what to do...

What I don't understand: How can something be worth something if you can't point to it or hold it in your hands?

Its difficult to grasp because the entire concept, successfully executed, is so new. Until bitcoin, a digitally scarce asset did not exist. SN put the pieces together that solved the problem of copy/paste. Digital currency had been a problem being worked on for 20+ years prior to SN's solution, Bitcoin.

ShopCat 05-18-2021 03:34 AM

While on vacation, I like to browse listings....

https://www.beachhouse.com/337-driftwood-point-road-santa-rosa-beach-florida-32459-p947736.html

Accepting Bitcoin.

Skillet83 05-18-2021 10:56 AM

No secret here that I am a fan of crypto, but well less than 5% of my net. Still having a blast with it, the returns are absolutely amazing, zipped into 6 figures quickly. Bought more yesterday:

Bitcoin BTC
Ethereum ETH
Cardano ADA
Steller Lumens XLM
Uniswap UNI
Internet Computer (new one) ICP
Smartlands SLT

The last one (smartlands) is a fun one. May get wiped out, but upside is huge. Platform is up now, (partially), properties listed, tier 1 exchange announcement within 30 days, wallet by end of month with staking. Go to smartlands.app, click on "news" at bottom. Exciting stuff.

sammyg2 05-18-2021 12:28 PM

Sorry, can't help it

<iframe width="658" height="370" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zDAmPIq29ro" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wayne 962 05-18-2021 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skillet83 (Post 11335809)
The last one (smartlands) is a fun one. May get wiped out, but upside is huge. Platform is up now, (partially), properties listed, tier 1 exchange announcement within 30 days, wallet by end of month with staking. Go to smartlands.app, click on "news" at bottom. Exciting stuff.

Indeed. I came up with an idea nearly identical to this one about a year or two ago. Simply put - a crypto currency that is backed by real estate. Basically, you can theoretically monetize / cash out your real estate portfolio using a coin and (most likely) capitalize on the crypto craze to generate a higher-than-book-value return. Sounds brilliant, and it pretty much is.

The trouble is, it's also not legal. The problem lies in the fact that this is actually an unregulated security. Using crypto to securitize an asset is no different, in the eyes of the US government, than using paper. The securities laws are setup to prevent any pump-and-dump house from selling pieces of garbage to unknowing investors. This strategy, although very smart, runs afoul of that (most likely). In theory, the crypto should be no different than a publicly traded REIT, which (supposedly) follows the book value of the underlying asset.

This indeed can probably devolve into a detailed discussion about securities law. I have a few investments that are targeted towards "accredited investors" - these are REITs (Real Estate Investment Trusts), and a fund on mezzanine loan financing (in-between traditional banks and hard-money lenders). All of these funds require each investor to certify and prove that they are an "accredited investor", which means they have a certain minimum income level, or have a certain minimum amount of assets held somewhere else. These industries are audited often (my friend is the General Partner of one of them), and they cannot muck around with the SEC, otherwise one ends up going to jail. I'm not sure if these "real estate backed coin" efforts are located in the United States, but if they are, then they are probably an unregistered security and are probably not legal.

Someone who is a securities attorney might want to weigh in on this. My own experience is limited to the time I worked on Wall St. when I was much younger. At least here in the US, you just can't do this type of thing right now. Maybe they are trying to work within the framework of the Obama 2012 Reg A+ offerings? Or perhaps a 506(c)? My friend tried to do this with a company he had called "Asset Avenue" which was supposed to be "crowdsourcing" real estate. The legal and regulatory headaches killed that idea off fairly quickly because it wasn't legal to pitch the investments to non-accredited investors.

Don't know. Maybe Congress will eventually relax the laws on this, but for now, it's a bit difficult to legally do something like this...

More links / info:

https://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/secg/accredited-investor-net-worth-standard-secg.htm
https://www.seedinvest.com/blog/jobs-act/raising-capital-reg-a-mini-ipo
https://www.holloway.com/g/angel-investing/sections/exemptions

-Wayne

Wayne 962 05-18-2021 12:40 PM

Interesting statement from the Chairman of the SEC:

https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11

Quote:

Statement on Cryptocurrencies and Initial Coin Offerings

The world’s social media platforms and financial markets are abuzz about cryptocurrencies and “initial coin offerings” (ICOs). There are tales of fortunes made and dreamed to be made. We are hearing the familiar refrain, “this time is different.”

The cryptocurrency and ICO markets have grown rapidly. These markets are local, national and international and include an ever-broadening range of products and participants. They also present investors and other market participants with many questions, some new and some old (but in a new form), including, to list just a few:

Is the product legal? Is it subject to regulation, including rules designed to protect investors? Does the product comply with those rules?
Is the offering legal? Are those offering the product licensed to do so?
Are the trading markets fair? Can prices on those markets be manipulated? Can I sell when I want to?
Are there substantial risks of theft or loss, including from hacking?

The answers to these and other important questions often require an in-depth analysis, and the answers will differ depending on many factors. This statement provides my general views on the cryptocurrency and ICO markets[1] and is directed principally to two groups:

“Main Street” investors, and

Market professionals – including, for example, broker-dealers, investment advisers, exchanges, lawyers and accountants – whose actions impact Main Street investors.

Considerations for Main Street Investors

A number of concerns have been raised regarding the cryptocurrency and ICO markets, including that, as they are currently operating, there is substantially less investor protection than in our traditional securities markets, with correspondingly greater opportunities for fraud and manipulation.

Investors should understand that to date no initial coin offerings have been registered with the SEC. The SEC also has not to date approved for listing and trading any exchange-traded products (such as ETFs) holding cryptocurrencies or other assets related to cryptocurrencies.[2] If any person today tells you otherwise, be especially wary.

We have issued investor alerts, bulletins and statements on initial coin offerings and cryptocurrency-related investments, including with respect to the marketing of certain offerings and investments by celebrities and others.[3] Please take a moment to read them. If you choose to invest in these products, please ask questions and demand clear answers. A list of sample questions that may be helpful is attached.

As with any other type of potential investment, if a promoter guarantees returns, if an opportunity sounds too good to be true, or if you are pressured to act quickly, please exercise extreme caution and be aware of the risk that your investment may be lost.

Please also recognize that these markets span national borders and that significant trading may occur on systems and platforms outside the United States. Your invested funds may quickly travel overseas without your knowledge. As a result, risks can be amplified, including the risk that market regulators, such as the SEC, may not be able to effectively pursue bad actors or recover funds.

To learn more about these markets and their regulation, please read the “Additional Discussion of Cryptocurrencies, ICOs and Securities Regulation” section below.

Considerations for Market Professionals

I believe that initial coin offerings – whether they represent offerings of securities or not – can be effective ways for entrepreneurs and others to raise funding, including for innovative projects. However, any such activity that involves an offering of securities must be accompanied by the important disclosures, processes and other investor protections that our securities laws require. A change in the structure of a securities offering does not change the fundamental point that when a security is being offered, our securities laws must be followed.[4] Said another way, replacing a traditional corporate interest recorded in a central ledger with an enterprise interest recorded through a blockchain entry on a distributed ledger may change the form of the transaction, but it does not change the substance.

I urge market professionals, including securities lawyers, accountants and consultants, to read closely the investigative report we released earlier this year (the “21(a) Report”)[5] and review our subsequent enforcement actions.[6] In the 21(a) Report, the Commission applied longstanding securities law principles to demonstrate that a particular token constituted an investment contract and therefore was a security under our federal securities laws. Specifically, we concluded that the token offering represented an investment of money in a common enterprise with a reasonable expectation of profits to be derived from the entrepreneurial or managerial efforts of others.

Following the issuance of the 21(a) Report, certain market professionals have attempted to highlight utility characteristics of their proposed initial coin offerings in an effort to claim that their proposed tokens or coins are not securities. Many of these assertions appear to elevate form over substance. Merely calling a token a “utility” token or structuring it to provide some utility does not prevent the token from being a security. Tokens and offerings that incorporate features and marketing efforts that emphasize the potential for profits based on the entrepreneurial or managerial efforts of others continue to contain the hallmarks of a security under U.S. law. On this and other points where the application of expertise and judgment is expected, I believe that gatekeepers and others, including securities lawyers, accountants and consultants, need to focus on their responsibilities. I urge you to be guided by the principal motivation for our registration, offering process and disclosure requirements: investor protection and, in particular, the protection of our Main Street investors.

I also caution market participants against promoting or touting the offer and sale of coins without first determining whether the securities laws apply to those actions. Selling securities generally requires a license, and experience shows that excessive touting in thinly traded and volatile markets can be an indicator of “scalping,” “pump and dump” and other manipulations and frauds. Similarly, I also caution those who operate systems and platforms that effect or facilitate transactions in these products that they may be operating unregistered exchanges or broker-dealers that are in violation of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.

On cryptocurrencies, I want to emphasize two points. First, while there are cryptocurrencies that do not appear to be securities, simply calling something a “currency” or a currency-based product does not mean that it is not a security. Before launching a cryptocurrency or a product with its value tied to one or more cryptocurrencies, its promoters must either (1) be able to demonstrate that the currency or product is not a security or (2) comply with applicable registration and other requirements under our securities laws. Second, brokers, dealers and other market participants that allow for payments in cryptocurrencies, allow customers to purchase cryptocurrencies on margin, or otherwise use cryptocurrencies to facilitate securities transactions should exercise particular caution, including ensuring that their cryptocurrency activities are not undermining their anti-money laundering and know-your-customer obligations.[7] As I have stated previously, these market participants should treat payments and other transactions made in cryptocurrency as if cash were being handed from one party to the other.

Wayne 962 05-18-2021 12:40 PM

continued...

Quote:

Additional Discussion of Cryptocurrencies, ICOs and Securities Regulation

Cryptocurrencies. Speaking broadly, cryptocurrencies purport to be items of inherent value (similar, for instance, to cash or gold) that are designed to enable purchases, sales and other financial transactions. They are intended to provide many of the same functions as long-established currencies such as the U.S. dollar, euro or Japanese yen but do not have the backing of a government or other body. Although the design and maintenance of cryptocurrencies differ, proponents of cryptocurrencies highlight various potential benefits and features of them, including (1) the ability to make transfers without an intermediary and without geographic limitation, (2) finality of settlement, (3) lower transaction costs compared to other forms of payment and (4) the ability to publicly verify transactions. Other often-touted features of cryptocurrencies include personal anonymity and the absence of government regulation or oversight. Critics of cryptocurrencies note that these features may facilitate illicit trading and financial transactions, and that some of the purported beneficial features may not prove to be available in practice.

It has been asserted that cryptocurrencies are not securities and that the offer and sale of cryptocurrencies are beyond the SEC’s jurisdiction. Whether that assertion proves correct with respect to any digital asset that is labeled as a cryptocurrency will depend on the characteristics and use of that particular asset. In any event, it is clear that, just as the SEC has a sharp focus on how U.S. dollar, euro and Japanese yen transactions affect our securities markets, we have the same interests and responsibilities with respect to cryptocurrencies. This extends, for example, to securities firms and other market participants that allow payments to be made in cryptocurrencies, set up structures to invest in or hold cryptocurrencies, or extend credit to customers to purchase or hold cryptocurrencies.

Initial Coin Offerings. Coinciding with the substantial growth in cryptocurrencies, companies and individuals increasingly have been using initial coin offerings to raise capital for their businesses and projects. Typically these offerings involve the opportunity for individual investors to exchange currency such as U.S. dollars or cryptocurrencies in return for a digital asset labeled as a coin or token.

These offerings can take many different forms, and the rights and interests a coin is purported to provide the holder can vary widely. A key question for all ICO market participants: “Is the coin or token a security?” As securities law practitioners know well, the answer depends on the facts. For example, a token that represents a participation interest in a book-of-the-month club may not implicate our securities laws, and may well be an efficient way for the club’s operators to fund the future acquisition of books and facilitate the distribution of those books to token holders. In contrast, many token offerings appear to have gone beyond this construct and are more analogous to interests in a yet-to-be-built publishing house with the authors, books and distribution networks all to come. It is especially troubling when the promoters of these offerings emphasize the secondary market trading potential of these tokens. Prospective purchasers are being sold on the potential for tokens to increase in value – with the ability to lock in those increases by reselling the tokens on a secondary market – or to otherwise profit from the tokens based on the efforts of others. These are key hallmarks of a security and a securities offering.

By and large, the structures of initial coin offerings that I have seen promoted involve the offer and sale of securities and directly implicate the securities registration requirements and other investor protection provisions of our federal securities laws. Generally speaking, these laws provide that investors deserve to know what they are investing in and the relevant risks involved.

I have asked the SEC’s Division of Enforcement to continue to police this area vigorously and recommend enforcement actions against those that conduct initial coin offerings in violation of the federal securities laws.

Conclusion

We at the SEC are committed to promoting capital formation. The technology on which cryptocurrencies and ICOs are based may prove to be disruptive, transformative and efficiency enhancing. I am confident that developments in fintech will help facilitate capital formation and provide promising investment opportunities for institutional and Main Street investors alike.

I encourage Main Street investors to be open to these opportunities, but to ask good questions, demand clear answers and apply good common sense when doing so. When advising clients, designing products and engaging in transactions, market participants and their advisers should thoughtfully consider our laws, regulations and guidance, as well as our principles-based securities law framework, which has served us well in the face of new developments for more than 80 years. I also encourage market participants and their advisers to engage with the SEC staff to aid in their analysis under the securities laws. Staff providing assistance on these matters remain available at FinTech@sec.gov.

Sample Questions for Investors Considering a Cryptocurrency or ICO
Investment Opportunity[8]

- Who exactly am I contracting with?
- Who is issuing and sponsoring the product, what are their backgrounds, and have they provided a full and complete description of the product?
- Do they have a clear written business plan that I understand?
- Who is promoting or marketing the product, what are their backgrounds, and are they licensed to sell the product? Have they been paid to promote the product?
- Where is the enterprise located?
- Where is my money going and what will it be used for? Is my money going to be used to “cash out” others?
- What specific rights come with my investment?
- Are there financial statements? If so, are they audited, and by whom?
- Is there trading data? If so, is there some way to verify it?
- How, when, and at what cost can I sell my investment? For example, do I have a right to give the token or coin back to the company or to receive a refund? Can I resell the coin or token, and if so, are there any limitations on my ability to resell?
- If a digital wallet is involved, what happens if I lose the key? Will I still have access to my investment?
- If a blockchain is used, is the blockchain open and public? Has the code been published, and has there been an independent cybersecurity audit?
- Has the offering been structured to comply with the securities laws and, if not, what implications will that have for the stability of the enterprise and the value of my investment?
- What legal protections may or may not be available in the event of fraud, a hack, malware, or a downturn in business prospects? Who will be responsible for refunding my investment if something goes wrong?
- If I do have legal rights, can I effectively enforce them and will there be adequate funds to compensate me if my rights are violated?

Wayne 962 05-18-2021 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 11335384)
To be honest I don't know what to do...

What I don't understand: How can something be worth something if you can't point to it or hold it in your hands?

I can't point to or hold the rights to the Beatles music catalog in my hand, but it still exists and has substantial value?

-Wayne

Wayne 962 05-18-2021 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11335383)
If one could solve the blockchain trilemma (decentralized, secure and scalable) it may become king. So far you have to sacrifice at least one for the others. Bitcoin is ultimately secure and decentralized, but not so scalable.

I agree, but also disagree. I think the decentralized thing is not as big of an issue as one would think. I think an International body / organization / court that could intervene when fraud occurs or something against the "code" of a crypto happens could be feasible. As long as the supply of the coin is relatively stable and a function of the capital placed into it (which it is not right now), then I think the decentralization argument is less of an issue. For some it's a major issue, but I think for main-stream adoption, it's not as important.

In my opinion, the mining energy usage is the number one thing that is going to stop BTC in it's tracks though. No mainstream company is going to embrace this when it's so disastrous for the environment and contributes so much to global warming. The optics are terrible, and even Elon recently figured that out - probably after being called out on his apparent hypocrisy on the subject (pushing green cars while advocating the use of Bitcoin which is estimated to use almost 30 times the electricity of all the Tesla cars combined for a year? (https://fortune.com/2018/01/11/bitcoin-mining-tesla-electricity/)

-Wayne

ShopCat 05-18-2021 04:49 PM

I agree decentralization is not as important to most people as cypherpunks think, of course that is just because most are too uneducated or too lazy to figure out who is pickpocketing them. I doubt 90% of the population could tell you what fractional banking even is... Maybe this changes with future generations and cryptocurrencies. I saw a kid at Chicago O'Hare today wearing a Bitcoin hoodie lol.

Also, your article is from '17, way out of date, I seriously recommend watching the lecture series I posted a few pages back, taught by the current SEC chairman. Its like 25 hours but well worth the time, you'll have a more thorough knowledge than 99% of those owning crypto. Crypto was ruled not a security, could be changed, lawsuit between SEC and XRP now is ongoing, the result will ripple, no pun intended, throughout crypto. There are now ETFs as well.

As for the energy use, there is just too much to go into. I think it will self regulate over time. There are too many other items, higher on that list, that constantly get a pass that I would like to see addressed first.

ShopCat 05-18-2021 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skillet83 (Post 11335809)
No secret here that I am a fan of crypto, but well less than 5% of my net. Still having a blast with it, the returns are absolutely amazing, zipped into 6 figures quickly. Bought more yesterday:

Bitcoin BTC
Ethereum ETH
Cardano ADA
Steller Lumens XLM
Uniswap UNI
Internet Computer (new one) ICP
Smartlands SLT

The last one (smartlands) is a fun one. May get wiped out, but upside is huge. Platform is up now, (partially), properties listed, tier 1 exchange announcement within 30 days, wallet by end of month with staking. Go to smartlands.app, click on "news" at bottom. Exciting stuff.

Have read good things on ICP, also Ergo, which is aiming to be the Cardano platform version of Chainlink+Uniswap in one. If they pull that off they will be big. I bought into Chainlink when it was 200mm, because it solved a problem. Now hoping Ergo can do the same twofold.

dewolf 05-18-2021 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 11335384)
To be honest I don't know what to do...

What I don't understand: How can something be worth something if you can't point to it or hold it in your hands?

Use a credit card? Same thing. You can get Visa Bitcoin cards now.

ShopCat 05-18-2021 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dewolf (Post 11336260)
Use a credit card? Same thing. You can get Visa Bitcoin cards now.

There are also many indirect ways to gain exposure, like crypto ETFs/trusts or even stock in companies that hold bitcoin and crypto. Some pretty big names on this list. https://www.barrons.com/articles/these-19-stocks-can-give-exposure-to-bitcoin-according-to-goldman-51619540345

biosurfer1 05-18-2021 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11336228)
Crypto was ruled not a security, could be changed, lawsuit between SEC and XRP now is ongoing, the result will ripple, no pun intended, throughout crypto.
.

Bitcoin and Ethereum were ruled not a security, not all crypto hence the lawsuit with Ripple Labs.

That whole lawsuit is BS and I can't believe the SEC is wasting tax dollars filing it. I have owned XRP for years and have never once, for a second, thought it was an "investment contract" with Ripple Labs.

McLovin 05-18-2021 09:10 PM

I dumped my Bitcoin at 45.
I don’t want to turn a winner into a loser, so I’ll just take the profit and be happy.
Wish I would have done it at 65 though!

Wayne 962 05-18-2021 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11336228)
Crypto was ruled not a security,

Not a security when not backed by anything. Any time you add an equitable (real) asset behind the security (coin), then you're creating a securitized asset. The comments I posted from the SEC Chairman are indeed from 2017, but not much has changed in securities law in the few years since then.

A pure speculative coin backed by nothing is probably okay. One backed by a real asset (real estate, cars, gold, etc.) is probably not. Ironically, that seems backwards from what it really should be!

-Wayne

Wayne 962 05-18-2021 10:12 PM

Indeed, although some of you here may label me as a "never crypto" or something along those lines, I assure you that I am not. I think that the technology and concepts behind crypto are very smart, almost genius, and a properly-designed crypto platform can and will dominate in the future. It's just a matter of figuring out what the next best thing (the Facebook to MySpace, the Google to Overture, the Apple to Palm, etc.).

-Wayne

ShopCat 05-19-2021 03:54 AM

Fire sale today!

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SandyYoung...restricted.gif

McLovin 05-19-2021 06:19 AM

Even bigger one tomorrow!

island911 05-19-2021 06:37 AM

ya made me look...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1621434996.JPG


Gum?


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1621435016.jpg

Sooner or later 05-19-2021 07:04 AM

Crypto folks are just like Apple, Tesla, and Game Stop fanatics. They like it and will always like it.

I have a mid 30 year old friend that has been teaching me about it. So far, I am still in Crypto kindergarten.

jyl 05-19-2021 07:10 AM

If you’re a government looking for a way to reduce financial market froth with no or minimal impact on the real economy, you could do worse than to start with crypto “currencies”.

This bubble you can pop without doing anything to rates or QE or stimulus. If Musk can jerk BTC around with a tweet, imagine what governments can do with regulations and taxation – or by talking about doing the same, or just by talking about talking about it.

This is a bubble that most people – not most traders or crytofans, but most ordinary people – wouldn’t notice being popped. Tell them how crypto is used for crime, kills the environment, and makes shady billionaires (some of which is even true) and they’ll cheer on the pricking needle.

Your economic and security advisors are warning you that this baby needs to be killed before it grows. The warnings are more forceful in China, perhaps, but every government is going to be worried about its national currency being displaced by something that is incredibly volatile, dominated by anonymous persons from other countries, hard to track and tax, and beyond that government’s ability to issue or absorb. Oh, and the darn stuff is inherently deflationary too.

China will brook no challengers to its digital yuan. The US government may send subtler signals at first, but ultimately the musings of Yellen will turn into actual actions by the SEC, IRS, Congress etc.

BTC enthusiasts should be bribing, excuse me, contributing to Republican Congressmen as fast as they can. If they can make crypto into some financial equivalent of religion or Q'anon, they might be able to stave off regulation.

Wayne 962 05-19-2021 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11336528)
Fire sale today!

What a fall-i-ceeeeeeee! :) Watching AD for the 3rd time with my oldest kid these days...

-Wayne


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