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ShopCat 05-19-2021 09:23 AM

Not gonna lie, I bought more this morning. :) It has begun recovering since, but either way, 1BTC = 1BTC.

AD might be the best show ever written.

Volatility of BTC has steadily been reducing over time and will continue to reduce until it is no longer "too volatile." But the volatility is the reward for early adopters.

Wayne 962 05-19-2021 10:13 AM

I'm reading the articles on Bitcoin today. One thing that occurred to me is that this is a classic chicken / egg issue. So, the speculators (nearly everyone in Bitcoin these days) want to get in on the "next big thing" and capitalize on appreciation. But these speculators will eventually need the "mainstream" to jump on board (banks, car companies, regular businesses, etc.). But the "regular" businesses won't get on board until the volatility issue is solved. But the volatility is what is driving the speculators into the market (i.e. you wouldn't invest in Bitcoin if you didn't think that it was going to appreciate in the volatile future). Also, the environmental issue will keep the "regular" businesses away. I speak specifically of Bitcoin, for which again, I think is version 1.0.0 and is most likely to be replaced by some better crypto in the near future. I really want to figure out what that might be - I think to the crypto community, it might be obvious when it finally arrives. It might be the Facebook thing, it might be something else, who knows...

-Wayne

McLovin 05-19-2021 10:52 AM

My guess is the “next big thing” will be Ethereum 2.0

ShopCat 05-19-2021 10:55 AM

Libra? god we would all be screwed if the pivot goes from trusting banks to trusting facebook... I dont see any centralized form being the winner especially if tied to a company with a track record like facebook... There are a lot of possible winners out there. Look at Algorand as a front runner if they succeed but it will be years before it is fully decentralized.

Zeke 05-20-2021 07:09 AM

Bitcoin bit the dust yesterday.

Brando 05-20-2021 02:18 PM

Not to mention that there was something like 380k miners that went offline earlier this week. Looking at where the majority of the mining pools are located, there is great concern for how many are in China.

Wayne 962 05-20-2021 05:22 PM

I didn't see a lot of discussion on this particular bit of news:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2021/05/18/china-bans-banks-from-crypto-business-saying-speculative-trading-seriously-infringing-on-financial-order/?sh=1be3d2fd7898

Quote:

China Cracks Down On Crypto Business, Saying ‘Speculative’ Trading ‘Seriously Infringing’ On Financial Order

Chinese financial officials announced Tuesday that the country would crack down on financial institutions conducting cryptocurrency business or offering related services in light of the market's recent volatility, marking another blow to the nascent market reeling from one of its biggest sell-offs ever after booming institutional adoption helped lift it to meteoric highs during the pandemic.

In a joint statement Tuesday, three Chinese industry groups overseeing the financial sector announced that bank and payment institutions can not conduct business related to cryptocurrencies, specifically banning a slew of activities including cryptocurrency registration, trading, clearing and settlement.

The guidelines, which reiterate a previous ban from 2017, also bar financial institutions from accepting or using cryptocurrencies in payments or settlements, developing digital currency exchange services and offering any such services to clients.

The announcement was released by three organizations authorized by Chinese regulators to oversee their respective industry segments: the National Internet Finance Association of China, the China Banking Association and the Payment and Clearing Association of China.

The group specifically laid into the cryptocurrency's market massive volatility, saying digital tokens have "no real support value" and prices that are "extremely easy" to manipulate.

The move prohibits Chinese financial institutions, many of which had already shied away from offering crypto services amid the nation's past crackdown, from issuing cryptocurrency products or services, but it doesn't ban consumers from owning cryptocurrencies.

The value of the world's cryptocurrencies dropped about $50 billion, or 2.5% immediately after the announcement, pushing the week's staggering losses to roughly $500 billion from a Wednesday high above $2.5 trillion.

Crucial Quote

“Recently, crypto currency prices have skyrocketed and plummeted, and speculative trading of cryptocurrency has rebounded, seriously infringing on the safety of people’s property and disrupting the normal economic and financial order,” the Tuesday statement read. "Judging from the current judicial practice in my country, virtual currency transaction contracts are not protected by law."

Key Background

A wave of early regulatory crackdowns beginning in 2017 sparked a nearly 80% correction in cryptocurrency prices and a yearslong bull market that lasted until inflationary concerns and institutional adoption lifted the market to new highs during the pandemic. In March, Morgan Stanley became the first big bank in the U.S. to give wealthy clients access to cryptocurrency investments, and Goldman Sachs quickly followed suit with its own crypto offerings in April. JPMorgan and a slew of other smaller financial institutions have also reportedly indicated they may be next.

Surprising Fact

Cryptocurrencies soared nearly 500% over the past year as companies like Square, MicroStrategy and Tesla, in particular, started making big cryptocurrency investments, but in a testament to the market's extreme volatility, prices have plunged by about 30% since Elon Musk said Tesla would stop investing in bitcoin last month.

What To Watch For

Regulation in the U.S. Gensler and Yellen. Earlier this month, new Securities and Exchange Commission Chair Gary Gensler suggested that the agency may be gearing up for a long-awaited crypto crackdown in light of the market’s recent boom, telling CNBC: “To the extent that something is a security, the SEC has a lot of authority, and a lot of crypto tokens—I won’t call them ‘cryptocurrencies’ for this moment—are indeed securities.”

Further Reading

China bans financial, payment institutions from cryptocurrency business (Reuters)
https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinese-financial-payment-bodies-barred-cryptocurrency-business-2021-05-18/

ShopCat 05-20-2021 06:29 PM

The China story was the reason for the big drop imo, but this exact thing seems to happen at some point every run up. China has banned crypto in 2013, 2017, now 2021. Yet here we are.

Your linked article makes it sound like the China ban caused the 80% downturn in 17 (actually 18, incorrect simple facts) but it went up over 6x after the China ban dip in 2017 over the following 2 months, and has never seen that dip price since.

Wayne 962 05-20-2021 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11338487)
The China story was the reason for the big drop imo, but this exact thing seems to happen at some point every run up. China has banned crypto in 2013, 2017, now 2021. Yet here we are.

Maybe? Most people I've spoken with who are not crypto owners are saying, "Wow, if Elon thinks it's bad for the environment, then it doesn't have much chance with anyone else." Or something like that...

-Wayne

jyl 05-21-2021 02:39 AM

Also it was disclosed that only 5% of Tether’s assets are actually cash or equivalents. Tether plays a key role in crypto.

ShopCat 05-21-2021 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 11338609)
Also it was disclosed that only 5% of Tether’s assets are actually cash or equivalents. Tether plays a key role in crypto.

Your facts are incorrect, cash and cash equivalents are about 76% per their quarterly release for the NYAG.

But Tether will be an interesting one to watch, it could always fall apart and bring a lot of people with it if they are indeed hiding mismanagement and fraud. They are complying with the NYAG but still vague with terms like "commercial paper" making up a large portion of their cash equivalents. I think this has been discussed for about 5 years now so eventually its gotta happen or people gotta move on to something new to worry about.

jyl 05-21-2021 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11338617)
Your facts are incorrect, cash and cash equivalents are about 76% per their quarterly release for the NYAG.

But Tether will be an interesting one to watch, it could always fall apart and bring a lot of people with it if they are indeed hiding mismanagement and fraud. They are complying with the NYAG but still vague with terms like "commercial paper" making up a large portion of their cash equivalents. I think this has been discussed for about 5 years now so eventually its gotta happen or people gotta move on to something new to worry about.

Sorry, wasn’t clear. Cash and US Govt securities (UST) are only 5%. Most of “cash equivalents” is commercial paper and other assets that are not treated like cash and UST by risk managers.

ShopCat 05-21-2021 06:07 AM

Hard to determine the risk level without knowing the details of the commercial paper. But it is still short term so it turns over often right? Meaning they have access to at least some of that in cash off and on. Will be interesting to see if their next quarter report looks much different.

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 08:40 AM

https://coingeek.com/tether-reaches-new-lows-in-quest-to-avoid-being-audited/

Quote:

Tether reaches new lows in quest to avoid being audited

Never forget that Tether used to tell you that it was 100% backed by U.S. currency, and it was only after an investigation by the New York Attorney General (NYAG) forced its hand that it ever admitted that this wasn’t the case.

With that in mind: last week, Tether apparently released the first of its AG-mandated reserves reports to the world. This is required by Tether’s settlement with the NYAG, the company must submit one each quarter for the next two years. I say apparently because what Tether actually released is a one-page document containing two pie charts: one which shows the makeup of Tether’s reserves as being 74.85% “cash & cash equivalents,” and another which further breaks down what ‘cash and cash equivalents’ means.

The breakdown is provided without context and without any note as to how the figures were calculated, as you might expect from something prepared by a third-party accountant. There’s also nothing explicit to say that this is what Tether submitted to the AG as part of the settlement. As presented, the numbers tell us virtually nothing concrete about the actual breakdown of Tether’s reserves.

With that in mind, what is Tether trying to tell us with these figures?

The 75.85% figure is in line with the 74% given by Tether general counsel Stuart Hoegner in his affidavit to the New York Attorney General’s office. However, the breakdown of “cash and cash equivalents” represents another surreptitious walk-back of representations previously made by the company: only 3.87% of this category is constituted by cash, meaning cash accounts for a measly 2.94% of Tether’s entire reserves:

This is a far cry from the days when Tether was trying to convince us that every tether in circulation was backed by a matching U.S. dollar.

The other items listed in the breakdown, such as the 65.39% worth of “commercial paper,” are next to meaningless in this context (what little there is to speculate about isn’t encouraging). Had Tether released a third-party audit of its reserves—as critics have consistently asked for – we would be able to tell from disclosures made in the report and the accounting standards used exactly what these items constitute. As this is no more than two barely annotated pie charts, we cannot guess. There is so much room for interpretation within a phrase like ‘commercial paper’ that without a definition, it is meaningless.

So, while the statement “Tether is 100% backed” may be trivially true in that Tether issues USDT and also holds assets of some kind, this is not what Tether means when it calls itself a ‘stablecoin.’ When a digital asset holds itself out as a ‘stablecoin,’ what matters is exactly what that coin is being backed by. If that backing only amounts to less than 4% cash, with the rest of the backing still practically unknowable, in what sense can tether ever be considered ‘stable’?

It appears that the only purpose this publication (and Tether’s prior attempts at transparency) is meant to serve is providing Tether’s uncritical supporters a headline from which to argue on Twitter, distracting from the truth: that we still know almost nothing about Tether’s reserves.

Tether knows what it’s doing

General counsel Stuart Hoegner has become the de-facto spokesperson for Tether, particularly when the question of its backing is concerned. In one way, this makes sense. As their general counsel, it’s only natural that Hoegner would take point in conversations with regulators and law enforcement. On the other hand, is it appropriate for Tether, via their in-house lawyer, to not only refuse to acknowledge the true details of the settlement with the NYAG, but actively misrepresent it? Almost every representation Tether has made as to its reserves has been misleading if not an outright lie, and that includes those which have come directly from Hoegner.

Hoegner’s public statements on Tether follow a clear pattern. Whenever the company is backed into a corner or when skepticism as to tether backing reaches a peak, Hoegner will pop up on a podcast or release a statement assuring everybody that everything is okay and that any implication that Tether is being dishonest is nothing but FUD. He’ll do this even when publicly available evidence directly contradicts his assurances.

This exact pattern has already played out with Tether’s pie chart document. Less than a day after it was published, Hoegner wrote a 1,400-word Medium post entitled ‘Tether is Setting a New Standard for Transparency – and Responding to Criticism That is Untethered From Facts’. In it, he complains that sceptics of Tether’s so-called “proof” of backing are “moving the goalposts” and “spreading patently false and misleading misinformation and outlandish conspiracy theories.”

This is a rich position for Hoegner to take, considering that same Medium post also says this:

“After an extensive investigation for more than two years and reviewing more than 2.5M documents provided by Tether and Bitfinex, the New York Attorney General’s Office made no negative findings whatsoever that tethers were not fully backed, nor were ever issued without backing.”

This is an outright lie. The settlement agreement between Tether and the Attorney General’s office, signed by Tether and Bitfinex, is explicit:

“Because of Tether’s inability to conduct significant banking activity during this time, it could not itself hold dollars sufficient to back the hundreds of millions of new tethers that had entered the market. Until September 15, 2017, the only U.S. dollars held by Tether ostensibly backing the approximately 442 million tethers in circulation was the approximately $61 million on deposit at the Bank of Montreal.”

As for after 2017:

“As of November 2, 2018, tethers were again no longer backed 1-to-1 by U.S. dollars in a Tether bank account, because a substantial portion of the backing… had been transferred to Bitfinex to make up for the funds taken by Crypto Capital.”

It was only after this period—and after the opening of the NYAG investigation—that Tether would surreptitiously walk back its promise to be fully backed by fiat. Its website was quietly changed in February 2019 from saying that “every tether is always backed 1-to-1, by traditional currency held in our reserves” to “traditional currency and cash equivalents and, from time to time, may include other assets and receivables from loans made by Tether to third parties.” The change was not announced by Tether despite being a significant departure from the position it had been insisting upon to that point. Instead, shortly after the change, Hoegner submitted an affidavit to the NYAG in which he admits that tethers are only 74% backed by currency or cash equivalents.

Hoegner told The Block after the charts’ release that “readers should not confuse items not in ‘actual cash’ with a lack of liquidity”—but just two years ago Tether was claiming that each token was 100% backed by currency. The goalposts are indeed being moved, but it isn’t by Tether’s critics, as Hoegner would have you believe. They’re being moved by Tether and Hoegner every time their claims about tether backing can no longer be reasonably believed.

Tether’s motivations for this are obvious. It only needs to continue giving its supporters enough evidence for them to carry on believing that each tether has real world value. It never needs to prove this practically, as despite there still being no record of anybody being able to redeem their tethers for currency, people are still buying tethers.

But what’s in it for Hoegner? It must be exhausting having to perpetually contradict your previous statements on the subject, especially when those prior misrepresentations draw the ire of the authorities, as they did with Tether in New York. Perhaps Hoegner is the unwitting patsy, forced into being the public face of Tether’s continually shifting goal posts to draw attention away from the people in charge.

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 08:40 AM

Continued...

Quote:


To paint him entirely as a lightning rod for Tether brass wouldn’t be doing Hoegner justice, however.

Tether has at various points attempted to claim tens of millions of dollars as part of its backing reserve, which, in reality, were held in an account Hoegner’s name, not Tether’s. This was reported by Bloomberg in 2018 and was confirmed by the NYAG investigation, and took place in the era when each tether was supposed to be being backed 1:1 by U.S. currency.

Then there’s Hoegner’s own professional history, which includes a role as deputy general counsel and director of compliance for Excapsa, founders of online casino UltimateBet. Excapsa sold UltimateBet in 2006, but the site collapsed in 2008 when it was revealed that Excapsa employees were cheating on the platform, both pre-sale and post-sale. Excapsa’s general counsel, presumably Hoegner’s boss, was Daniel Freidberg. Friedberg has been implicated in the cheating scandal, and despite working on behalf of UltimateBet in the company’s sale, began working for the buyer almost immediately post-transaction, which seems to be a highly unsatisfactory conflict of interest. Nonetheless, nothing came of this.

There’s also Hoegner’s Medium post, which brazenly mischaracterizes the outcome of the NYAG investigation in much the same way that Tether’s press release at the time of the settlement did. Like his bosses, Hoegner knows that those who have supported Tether to this point will believe more or less whatever he tells them. This is why it’s possible for Hoegner to feel comfortable writing 1,400 words on Medium without acknowledging that the NYAG’s investigation found that tether has not always been backed, or Tether’s continued failure to provide a third-party audit of its reserves.

While it’s interesting to ponder Hoegner’s motivations, it ultimately doesn’t matter. The fact is that Tether regularly uses Hoegner to put a more credible gloss on the company’s ongoing campaign of deception and obfuscation regarding its reserves. Thanks to the likes of the New York Attorney General’s Office, Tether is rapidly running out of room to lie as the excuses become more and more feeble, as shown by Hoegner’s laughable attempt to spin the NYAG’s investigation and Tether’s latest non-proof into something that Twitter can grab a hold of.

What will be interesting to see is whether these pie charts are what Tether actually submitted to the NYAG in compliance with February’s settlement and if not, whether the real reserves breakdown will be ever see the light of day.



Wayne 962 05-21-2021 08:47 AM

The first post in this thread was indeed specific on it's thoughts on this topic - that Tether was a digital ponzi scheme that had little or no reserves, and that it was being used along with leverage to inflate the value of other assets, namely Bitcoin. Bottom line, I believe that if one is a legit company that wants people to trust it, then one should release copious amounts of information detailing the assets, where they are, and will have a top-rate accounting / auditing firm come in and verify. That has not happened here, and in my opinion, the clues that have been discovered so far seem to point to very suspect activity.

-Wayne

ShopCat 05-21-2021 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne 962 (Post 11338958)
The first post in this thread was indeed specific on it's thoughts on this topic - that Tether was a digital ponzi scheme that had little or no reserves, and that it was being used along with leverage to inflate the value of other assets, namely Bitcoin. Bottom line, I believe that if one is a legit company that wants people to trust it, then one should release copious amounts of information detailing the assets, where they are, and will have a top-rate accounting / auditing firm come in and verify. That has not happened here, and in my opinion, the clues that have been discovered so far seem to point to very suspect activity.

-Wayne

One point for Tether is that they just were listed in coinbase, which means they satisfied the criteria coinbase puts their listings through which is known to be the most stringent of the exchanges.

Also worth noting Tether is about half the total market of stablecoins.

Side note, I made a purchase today using BCH. Now I own some .crypto domains

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11338997)
Side note, I made a purchase today using BCH. Now I own some .crypto domains

Huh?

-Wayne

Brando 05-21-2021 09:24 AM

This bit 'o news just dropped. This is the issue with any one actor having a majority stake in the mining of cryptocurrency. It is antithetical to de-fi and puts the network at risk.

Quote:

Bitcoin Crashes 12% as China Reiterates Mining Crackdown

Bitcoin was hit by its second piece of bearish news out of China in under a week.

This time, China's financial committee has added Bitcoin mining as a key sector to monitor in an attempt to "resolutely prevent and control financial risks."

The meeting was overseen by Liu He, the vice-premier of the State Council of the People's Republic of China. Of the four vice-premiers who report to the premier of the State Council, Liu He is the lowest-ranked. He is also the director of the Central Financial and Economic Affairs Commission to the Chinese Communist Party.

The report includes a laundry list of other activities beyond Bitcoin mining, including the reform of small- and medium-sized financial institutions, dull the effects of illegal securities activities, and "effectively respond to imported inflation."

This is the first time that the State Council has explicitly spoken out on Bitcoin mining.

Despite the broad nature of the report, Bitcoin plummeted by 12%. The cryptocurrency's price has since recovered to around $37,800, a loss of nearly 8% in the last 24 hours.

On Wednesday, a similar piece of news dragged the leading cryptocurrency down to $30,000. At that time, a group of three payments and financial associations reiterated the central bank's initial ban from 2017. The three associations were the National Internet Finance Association of China, the China Banking Association, and the Payment and Clearing Association of China.

Sources suggest that the latest crackdown on Bitcoin mining will be limited to operations that are not using hydroelectric power.

The number of coal-powered mining outfits in China is significant. A flooded coal mine in the Xinjiang region last month triggered a steep drop in Bitcoin's hash rate, the metric used to determine how much processing power the Bitcoin network uses.

ShopCat 05-21-2021 09:28 AM

I'd argue this is good for the long term of BTC. China crackdown hopefully leads to a more decentralized mining network. USA needs to get it together. I think there is a big rig in TX coming.

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11339017)
I'd argue this is good for the long term of BTC. China crackdown hopefully leads to a more decentralized mining network. USA needs to get it together. I think there is a big rig in TX coming.

Your optimism and enthusiasm for Bitcoin is truly admirable (and that is not meant to be sarcastic). I salute that (but still remain a big skeptic on crypto 1.0.0).

-Wayne

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1621618560.jpg

Brando 05-21-2021 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11339017)
I'd argue this is good for the long term of BTC. China crackdown hopefully leads to a more decentralized mining network. USA needs to get it together. I think there is a big rig in TX coming.

You would be correct with that statement. So now we have CN firms pushing their (our?) money back into places where they can continue to reap the rewards of mining.

Quote:

Chinese Bitcoin Firm to Invest $25M in Texas Mining Center

BIT Limited, a Chinese crypto mining company, has announced that it has entered into a binding investment term sheet with Dory Creek LLC to invest in a crypto mining data center in Texas. Dory Creek LLC is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Bitdeer, Inc.

The Chinese company will invest $25 million and jointly construct and operate the Texas mining center with Dory Creek LLC. The mining center has a total power capacity of 57.2 megawatts.

Currently, the majority of BIT Mining’s crypto mining operations take place in China’s Sichuan province, a hotspot for crypto miners due to the low cost of hydroelectric power.

The move to open a mining center in Texas is part of BIT Limited’s objective to lower its carbon footprint. According to a prepared statement, the firm claims that more than 98% of its power capacity would be generated from green sources.

Crypto Mining: China and the United States

China and the United States are competing for a foothold in the growing crypto mining business.

According to Cambridge University, almost two-thirds of the world’s Bitcoin mining industry occurs in China. However, this figure is on the decline. In September 2019, China enjoyed 75% of the world’s Bitcoin mining industry.

China still has a significant command of the Bitcoin mining market, but the United States has been pivoting to this industry, too. Today, the United States holds over 7% of the world’s Bitcoin mining industry, up from about 4% in September 2019.

What’s more, BIT Mining is not the first company to turn to Texas’ mining potential. In March of this year, UK-based Argo Blockchain bought land in the Lone Star State to launch a Bitcoin mining operation. U.S. firm Riot Blockchain also dropped $650 million on a massive Bitcoin mining site in Texas last year.
Oh, and I came across this earlier this week regarding crypto in the corporate news cycle:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1621621957.jpg

Brando 05-21-2021 10:39 AM

Also, Bitcointalk and the BTC Mining sub at Reddit can be full of useful info on occasion.

I use the former to track updates for Phoenix Miner/T-Rex Miner and the latter for just seeing what's "news" throughout the day. FYI, the latter does get its share of BS posts.

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 10:40 AM

Quote:

The move to open a mining center in Texas is part of BIT Limited’s objective to lower its carbon footprint. According to a prepared statement, the firm claims that more than 98% of its power capacity would be generated from green sources.
I call BS on that. The only way that would / could happen was if they were installing new electricity *generation* capability as part of the construction of the site. Otherwise, they are just taking existing electrical supplies off of the grid. As far as I know, there is no "excess" electrical capacity just sitting around in Texas - if you "take" the power from somewhere else, replacement energy will have to be generated using traditional carbon-based methods.

I invite someone to argue the opposite, perhaps there's something I haven't thought of...

-Wayne

ShopCat 05-21-2021 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne 962 (Post 11339105)
I call BS on that. The only way that would / could happen was if they were installing new electricity *generation* capability as part of the construction of the site. Otherwise, they are just taking existing electrical supplies off of the grid. As far as I know, there is no "excess" electrical capacity just sitting around in Texas - if you "take" the power from somewhere else, replacement energy will have to be generated using traditional carbon-based methods.

I invite someone to argue the opposite, perhaps there's something I haven't thought of...

-Wayne

I think more demand for green energy can only be good for green energy production in the future. If BTC mining (or any industry) pushes green energy demand that is only a good thing long term and probably the most efficient and quickest way to transition to renewables.

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11339110)
I think more demand for green energy can only be good for green energy production in the future. If BTC mining (or any industry) pushes green energy demand that is only a good thing long term and probably the most efficient and quickest way to transition to renewables.

But why would more BTC mining push green energy? It's a business like any other, and they will want the lowest price, regardless of it being green or not? It's not like these BTC that will be mined will be special "green" ones? I mean, you could get away with that if you were making "green" consumer products - the customer might pay a premium for that. But these are commodity instruments that are no different from ones mined elsewhere?

I just don't understand the argument that says "mining more Bitcoin will encourage more green energy". There's no reason or incentive for that? The hydro power that the miners have been using in China is used because it's cheaper. "Green" energy is not cheaper here in the states (particularly in Texas), last time I checked...

-Wayne

cstreit 05-21-2021 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne 962 (Post 11339105)
I call BS on that. The only way that would / could happen was if they were installing new electricity *generation* capability as part of the construction of the site. Otherwise, they are just taking existing electrical supplies off of the grid. As far as I know, there is no "excess" electrical capacity just sitting around in Texas - if you "take" the power from somewhere else, replacement energy will have to be generated using traditional carbon-based methods.

I invite someone to argue the opposite, perhaps there's something I haven't thought of...

-Wayne

Wayne they're only buying the electrons generated out of solar. Much of it goes to waste as once they cool down from sitting too long they don't work. Its just extra. :) :D

ShopCat 05-21-2021 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne 962 (Post 11339123)
But why would more BTC mining push green energy? It's a business like any other, and they will want the lowest price, regardless of it being green or not? It's not like these BTC that will be mined will be special "green" ones? I mean, you could get away with that if you were making "green" consumer products - the customer might pay a premium for that. But these are commodity instruments that are no different from ones mined elsewhere?

I just don't understand the argument that says "mining more Bitcoin will encourage more green energy". There's no reason or incentive for that? The hydro power that the miners have been using in China is used because it's cheaper. "Green" energy is not cheaper here in the states (particularly in Texas), last time I checked...

-Wayne

I think the two environmental based arguments are at odds. I see on one had energy consumption will kill Bitcoin, and on the other hand Bitcoin has nothing to do with pushing green energy. If the argument that bitcoin can fail because of its energy consumption and environmental impact is true, then is it not also true that in order for bitcoin to survive, it has to become more environmentally friendly? So miners and the multi trillion dollar industry as a whole would need to push for greener energy in order to succeed correct? I do not think it is necessarily about bottom line today, but long term success which far outweighs the difference.

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cstreit (Post 11339124)
Wayne they're only buying the electrons generated out of solar. Much of it goes to waste as once they cool down from sitting too long they don't work. Its just extra. :) :D

Careful. I had to read that three times. Someone might not get the joke...

-Wayne

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShopCat (Post 11339134)
I think the two environmental based arguments are at odds. I see on one had energy consumption will kill Bitcoin, and on the other hand Bitcoin has nothing to do with pushing green energy. If the argument that bitcoin can fail because of its energy consumption and environmental impact is true, then is it not also true that in order for bitcoin to survive, it has to become more environmentally friendly? So miners and the multi trillion dollar industry as a whole would need to push for greener energy in order to succeed correct? I do not think it is necessarily about bottom line today, but long term success which far outweighs the difference.

You're kindof making my argument that Bitcoin, as version 1.0.0 is a good first try, but will probably not be viable for the long run. Do you really think that BTC miners will voluntarily pay more for electricity because it's green? 99% of everyone in BTC these days is in it for the money. Capitalism at work (I'm a fan of capitalism). But that won't push green energy, not by a longshot. And we haven't even really discussed the mining half-point that happens next year. At that point, presumably, mining will become 1/2 as profitable as it is today.

-Wayne

ShopCat 05-21-2021 11:45 AM

Well we are seeing miners choose more costly energy now with this investment in TX mining. The pressure of society will continue to push it greener IMO.

You presume it will become half as profitable, but mining is self regulating, difficulty adjusts about every two weeks up or down. If it becomes unprofitable and miners stop working it adjusts until it is profitable again automatically, talk about capitalism at work! It finds the equilibrium always, automatically, without fail. Another reason why it could never go away IMO. Has mining ever in the past become half as profitable? Seems like it has only gottne MORE profitable.

I agree though that a lot of speculators are in the market, I am happy to see the dip liquidate so much leverage, its healthier now. I don't think its even close to 99% though.

Wayne 962 05-21-2021 06:53 PM

Here's an article that supports my viewpoint that this whole "Bitcoin will spur clean energy" argument is complete BS. This is from today's WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-miners-are-giving-new-life-to-old-fossil-fuel-power-plants-11621594803?st=pk61r6usiozncb8&reflink=article_ema il_share

Quote:

Bitcoin Miners Are Giving New Life to Old Fossil-Fuel Power Plants

The lofty prices of cryptocurrencies have investors sinking money into electricity generation, risking a backlash


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1621651945.jpg

Across America, older fossil-fuel power plants are shutting down in favor of renewable energy. But some are getting a new lease on life—to mine bitcoin. In upstate New York, an idled coal plant has been restarted, fueled by natural gas, to mine cryptocurrency. A once-struggling Montana coal plant is now scaling up to do the same.

The lofty price of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies has investors pouring money into power generation—and risking a backlash. Elon Musk tweeted last week that Tesla Inc. would no longer accept bitcoin as payment for vehicles over concerns about fossil-fuel use in bitcoin mining. That rocked the market; bitcoin prices are now down around 25% since last week.

The drive for power has its roots in bitcoin’s intractable mathematics: To operate securely, the cryptocurrency’s network relies on computers solving puzzles; in return the solvers get fresh bitcoin. The higher the bitcoin price, the more of these miners compete to solve the puzzles—a process that chews up electricity. The more competition, the harder the puzzles get and the more electricity is used.

A University of Cambridge index pegs the annual power consumption of bitcoin mining at around 130 terawatt-hours, more than three times higher than at the beginning of 2019. That would be more than the power consumption of Argentina.

The coal-fired Hardin Generating Station in Montana had been struggling for years. Late last year, a Nasdaq-listed miner called Marathon Digital Holdings Inc. MARA -4.57% partnered with Hardin’s owner to transform the power plant into a hub for mining bitcoin.

“It was an idle asset,” Fred Thiel, Marathon Digital’s chief executive, said in an interview. “We were able to get access to a large amount of power at a very attractive price.”

The project is in the process of scaling up, with more than 100 megawatts of power capacity planned. Marathon Digital, whose investors include BlackRock Inc. and the hedge fund Renaissance Technologies LLC, said that by tapping the Montana coal plant, its break-even costs to produce a bitcoin will fall to $4,600, 38% less than previously.

The company is aiming to produce at least 55 bitcoins daily by the first quarter of next year, up from an average of two a day in 2020.

Besides mining bitcoin, Marathon Digital said that as of March it had nearly $300 million worth of bitcoin on its balance sheet, in an effort to signal its confidence in bitcoin’s future and attract institutional investors to the stock who might want exposure to the cryptocurrency but were unable to or unwilling to invest in it directly.

BlackRock and Renaissance declined to comment.

One of the most ambitious—and controversial—projects comes from private-equity firm Atlas Holdings. Based in Greenwich, Conn., the firm specializes in turnarounds of troubled companies. It bought the Greenidge coal-fired power station in 2014 after the plant in Dresden, N.Y. had been shut a few years earlier because it was economically unattractive to operate.

Atlas first converted the plant to natural gas from coal. Then, last year, it launched a data center for mining bitcoin using power the plant generated. The company said it currently has 19 megawatts of mining capacity and plans to raise it to 85 megawatts by the end of 2022.

Yvonne Taylor, vice president of the environmental nonprofit Seneca Lake Guardian, said air pollution and water runoff will damage a small community whose fresh air and clean water enables tourism, agriculture and fishing in the Finger Lakes.

Last month, local campaigners led a march to the gates of the power plant, and some groups have written letters to New York’s Department of Environmental Conservation and Gov. Andrew Cuomo urging them to revoke the plant’s permits.

The state has declined to do so. Last month, however, the Department of Environmental Conservation said it was closely monitoring Greenidge’s planned expansion. It said it also would consult the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency about the facility’s greenhouse-gas implications.

Greenidge said in March it was going public through a merger with Nasdaq-listed Support.com, which provides outsourced customer-support services. Under the deal, Support.com shareholders would get 8% of the combined company’s shares.

In exchange, Greenidge said it would use the cash on Support.com’s balance sheet to fund its expansion. There’s another potential benefit as well: Support.com has more than $145 million in federal net operating loss carryforwards, which could significantly lower the combined company’s taxes if the bitcoin operations prove to be profitable going forward.

Greenidge didn’t respond to a question on the potential tax advantages. It said last week it would begin purchasing voluntary carbon offsets and invest a portion of its mining profits in renewable-energy projects. Besides mining bitcoin, Greenidge said the power plant continues to send electricity to the grid.

“Greenidge has transformed an old coal-fired power plant into a clean, reliable source of power for thousands and an integrated data processing center mining bitcoin,” the company said in written response to questions. “We are grateful to enjoy great support from the local community.”

Support.com declined to comment.

The project has drawn the attention of state lawmakers in Albany, where a bill under review would place a three-year moratorium on crypto currency mining amid emissions concerns.

“New York is literally the world’s headquarters for finance,” said state Sen. Kevin Parker, a Democrat who sponsored the bill. “But we also want that to be done in a way that comports with our values.”

The proposal is a problem for Michel Amar, the CEO of Digihost Technology Inc. In 2015, Mr. Amar and his son began building out mining capacity in northwest New York state, hoping to take advantage of cheap, clean power that comes from hydro generation around Niagara Falls.

Their company produces more than 30 bitcoins each month, and gets more than 90% of its electricity from hydro power.

This year, amid the bitcoin price surge, the company announced it would also buy a 60-megawatt natural-gas plant north of Buffalo, N.Y. It plans to initially direct 35 megawatts toward bitcoin mining while also sending power to the grid when it’s needed.

Mr. Amar said the company would partly fuel the plant with natural gas derived from animal manure and other sources.

At the same time, he said the company is considering leaving New York if the moratorium is imposed, potentially setting up shop in other states or Canada.

“What is the difference between a data center processing for Amazon and a data center for bitcoin?” he said. “Our goal and commitment is to be green as much as we can.”


island911 05-21-2021 08:55 PM

Feed the machine!

Wow. So much energy to create new markers, that then need more power to maintain.

dewolf 05-21-2021 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne 962 (Post 11339105)
I call BS on that. The only way that would / could happen was if they were installing new electricity *generation* capability as part of the construction of the site. Otherwise, they are just taking existing electrical supplies off of the grid. As far as I know, there is no "excess" electrical capacity just sitting around in Texas - if you "take" the power from somewhere else, replacement energy will have to be generated using traditional carbon-based methods.

I invite someone to argue the opposite, perhaps there's something I haven't thought of...

-Wayne

I'd agree. It is a Chinese company after all.

ShopCat 05-22-2021 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne 962 (Post 11339531)
Here's an article that supports my viewpoint that this whole "Bitcoin will spur clean energy" argument is complete BS. This is from today's WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-miners-are-giving-new-life-to-old-fossil-fuel-power-plants-11621594803?st=pk61r6usiozncb8&reflink=article_ema il_share

So these are old coal plants, converted to natural gas in the past, now partially used to mine BTC while partially used to power to the grid when needed correct? I don't see how this supports your viewpoint anymore than mine. How do these three plants which are still on the main grid supplying power while mining when the grid power is not needed argue that BTC doesn't spur clean energy? It says right in the article they purchase voluntary credits and a portion of revenue goes toward renewable research. Also in the article it says one of the companies has been operating a hydro plant for years for mining. Also didn't you say earlier there is never excess power? Because it seems this article suggests their is, I mean of course there is since we have peak power hours and energy is very difficult to store.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/jack-dorsey-says-bitcoin-is-climate-friendly-is-he-right.html

https://assets.ctfassets.net/2d5q1td6cyxq/5mRjc9X5LTXFFihIlTt7QK/e7bcba47217b60423a01a357e036105e/BCEI_White_Paper.pdf

Solar and wind are competing to be the cheapest form of energy production in most of the world, that is a fact. Logically I dont see how you could argue then that BTC would not move to the cheapest form of energy long term.

Wayne 962 05-22-2021 09:40 PM

Sorry, I get that you're a big fan of Bitcoin, but using more energy to mine Bitcoin than the entire country of Argentina is simply a colossal waste. In the end, it doesn't matter if it uses green energy or not, because it will be taking green energy away from other uses. The article details, old, obsolete coal plants being brought back online to mine Bitcoin. I certainly wouldn't believe or trust *anything* that Jack Dorsey says for one thing.

https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/
Quote:

How much Bitcoin comes from dirty coal? A flooded mine in China just spotlighted the issue - April 2021

One of the great Bitcoin unknowns has long been the amounts being produced, or "mined," in what's believed to be the top locale for mining the signature cryptocurrency: China's remote Xinjiang region. We got the answer when an immense coal mine in Xinjiang flooded and shut down over the weekend of April 17–18.

The blackout halted no less than one-third of all of Bitcoin's global computing power. "We'd seen estimates that high, but this shutdown confirms them," says Alex de Vries, an economist who runs the website Digiconomist, which tracks Bitcoin's energy consumption. "We also learned that the area in Xinjiang where all that mining happens is much smaller than previously believed. It underscores China's dominance in Bitcoin mining, and that dominance raises big security concerns."

The Xinjiang accident highlights that Bitcoin is a creature of fossil fuels—principally coal, the dirtiest of them all. Its rise is even providing a lifeline for the fading natural-gas industry. In the U.S., miners from New York State to Kentucky are repurposing obsolete facilities to supply the cheap power they cherish. That Bitcoin spreads a carbon footprint bigger than Australia's, and that the run-up in its price could triple the carbon dioxide it spews, so far doesn't seem to bother the famous otherwise-green enthusiasts feeding the craze, from Elon Musk to Gwyneth Paltrow.

On April 11, the first news reports emerged that the Xinjiang mine had flooded, trapping 21 workers underground. The miners were rescued, but over the following weekend, authorities reportedly halted production while conducting a safety check, stopping shipments to power plants and causing a blackout. By de Vries's estimates, the "hash rate," the pace at which miners run algorithms to compete for fresh releases of Bitcoin, plummeted around 35%. Some in the Bitcoin community blamed the upheaval for hammering the price of the cryptocurrency by 14%, from a record $64,000 on Friday, April 16, to $55,000 on Sunday the 18th.


Wayne 962 05-22-2021 09:46 PM

https://financialhorse.com/bitcoin-mining-explained-going-green-in-the-future/

Quote:

Bitcoin Mining Explained! How much Electricity do you need?


In the early days of Bitcoin, anyone with a laptop had enough processing power to mine and earn thousands of BTC as a reward. But as it grew in popularity, more miners wanted in, setting off an arms race to amass computing power.

It started when a few crafty miners realised graphic cards typically used for video games were a more effective for mining. Soon, the rest of the pack caught up, leading miners to devise new ways to gain an edge.

...

A Sustainability Issue – Crypto Going Green

Bitcoin is anti-efficient by design. The difficulty of mining blocks is what makes it secure. Factor in the cost of electricity, investments in specialised equipment, and the costs quickly add up.

Then there is the environmental cost. Millions of computers trying to solve complex mathematical puzzles uses a ton of energy. And you also have to factor in the energy wasted by computers that lose the race.

As such, it’s estimated that the carbon emissions from one Bitcoin transaction is equivalent to 735,121 Visa transactions.

If Bitcoin was a country, it would rank in the top 30 in terms of total energy consumption. It makes for a good headline: “Bitcoin consumes ‘more electricity than Argentina’”. Making things worse, 61% of bitcoin mining is powered by fossil fuels.

About 70% of Bitcoin mining takes place in China. This activity is concentrated in rural areas, where miners have access to cheap, coal-powered electricity and undeveloped land to house servers.

Mining bitcoin using renewable energy could eliminate its carbon footprint. For example, some activity takes place in China where low-cost hydroelectricity is available. Bitcoin proponents, such as Square CEO Jack Dorsey, believes cryptocurrencies will eventually go green. To accelerate this transition, it launched a $10 million fund for companies making bitcoin mining more energy-efficient.

Still, it boils down to incentives. Bitcoin’s decentralised network is a double-edged sword. Mining activity will concentrate where electricity is cheapest. Currently, that includes sources with high carbon emissions, such as coal.

The alleged incident involved an immense coal mine in Xinjiang being flooded and shut down over the weekend of April 17–18. The blackout halted no less than one-third of all of Bitcoin’s global computing power.

Bitcoin mining is in large part being fuelled by Coal, and the huge demand and spike in price, is pushing pollution and carbon emissions to unsustainable heights.

Key takeaway:

Quote:

And you also have to factor in the energy wasted by computers that lose the race.
-Wayne

aigel 05-22-2021 10:35 PM

I have to chuckle about this
Quote:

To accelerate this transition, it launched a $10 million fund for companies making bitcoin mining more energy-efficient.
. If a significant portion of the cost to mine crypto is energy, you really shouldn't need to incentivize anyone further. Plus, $10M is a joke sum for a fund that is supposed to help change anything in an entire industry.

Have we talked about the plants in Iceland and other areas where there is geothermal power being used which otherwise would go unused?

The whole bitcoin craze is absurd to me. I am always amused when I see renderings of golden coins with a B on them in news articles. Great thread, a lot of good discussion with links to good reading. Reminds me of the real estate thread 15 years or so ago.

https://www.reuters.com/resizer/xvV-...Y2WS3FBM4M.jpg

ShopCat 05-22-2021 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne 962 (Post 11340474)
Sorry, I get that you're a big fan of Bitcoin, but using more energy to mine Bitcoin than the entire country of Argentina is simply a colossal waste. In the end, it doesn't matter if it uses green energy or not, because it will be taking green energy away from other uses. The article details, old, obsolete coal plants being brought back online to mine Bitcoin. I certainly wouldn't believe or trust *anything* that Jack Dorsey says for one thing.

https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/

It's only a waste to YOU. We are US citizens, on a classic car forum at that, to the majority of the world most of what we do is a waste. Gaming still consumes as much energy as bitcoin, but I haven't seen 50 articles comparing computer gaming energy to Switzerland or Argentina lol.

I think this is the current system doing everything it can to slow down a threat. If there is value to someone then it is not a waste to them, you happen to be in the controlling majority on your consumption, so you don't see it as waste. You don't see the stock market as waste, or the banking system as waste, but someone somewhere does. Probably many millions if not billions of people. Does anyone care how much energy is consumed to make the stock market work? Has anyone even cared enough to ever compute it? Is there a figure out there that has a net energy use of bitcoin market that would otherwise be used in the traditional system, most of which would probably be gold holdings?

I accept that energy will be spent on financial systems, and I happen to think bitcoin is worth the energy, and probably the better system, and hopefully it gets greener, but how green is the current system? How green would BTC need to be to be acceptable? Seems your response would be it will never been acceptable, as its always taking energy from something else. Obviously your mind is made up, so I'll just have to let it go. But as long as people find value in it it's never going away.

Wayne 962 05-22-2021 11:22 PM

I'll stand by my previous statements. Bitcoin is a fringe technology, used pretty much only by speculators, is not used for hardly any practical/legal commerce, and the support of this fringe system uses more electricity than the entire country of Argentina. As with most people arguing about random stuff these days, it comes down to "Scope and Scale". In this case, the scope of Bitcoin's usage is minuscule, yet the scale of it's energy usage is obscene, particularly in relationship to the scale of the other systems that you quote - namely the stock market, which is utilized by millions, if not billions of people to aid in the flow of capital. It does not make any sense to compare the current energy usage of the stock market (which stock market are you referring to in particular?) to the current energy costs of Bitcoin.

It is important to note that my comments / statements apply to Bitcoin only at this time. As I have said several times already in this thread, I believe that Bitcoin is version 1.0.0, and will go the way of MySpace, Netscape Navigator, and the Yahoo Directory. The blockchain is a very good idea, and some type of new platform in the future that fixes all of Bitcoins inherent and built-in problems will probably surface to supplant it.

-Wayne


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