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When I go out to one of my death scenes, I am required to wear an N95. No surgical mask, no cloth mask. Used to have to have a face shield on also but that got squashed. They never stayed put anyway..

Those rules come down from the state DOH. Not my office. State says anything other than an N95 is pretty much useless, but what we hear changes day to day. Who knows...

.

Look at the November 2020 guidance I posted as well as the studies they cite in finding masks do help.... Or not.. your call.

I can see you regard the CDC as a reliable authoritative source, and I agree. Here is their webpage on masks in which they offer their conclusion that masks have some efficacy and in which they repeatedly urge-mask-wearing:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

And here, for ease of your review, is the "Conclusion" section of that webpage. More details are available if you click on the link above, and some studies are discussed there:

Experimental and epidemiological data support community masking to reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The prevention benefit of masking is derived from the combination of source control and personal protection for the mask wearer. The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic14, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use. Further research is needed to expand the evidence base for the protective effect of cloth masks and in particular to identify the combinations of materials that maximize both their blocking and filtering effectiveness, as well as fit, comfort, durability, and consumer appeal. Adopting universal masking policies can help avert future lockdowns, especially if combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions such as social distancing, hand hygiene, and adequate ventilation.

Masks vs. face coverings
 

One point to keep in mind, a N95 face mask, the one with the plastic exhalation valve molded into the filter media, when properly worn, protects the wearer.

The face coverings (surgical masks, cloth masks, etc.) when properly worn, are used to protect others.

An interesting dilemma, we are evaluating radiological suit-up (think a hazardous material suit up) activities at work where an entrant is assisted by an attendant during the suit-up process. Full face respirators protect the wearer from inhaling contamination, unwanted particulate, or noxious fumes. They also incorporate an exhalation valve, allowing the wearers breath to escape. If the wearer is asymptomatic, they could be exhaling virus laden droplets and aerosols during this suit up process, putting the attendant at risk. The close proximity of this type of suit up requirement has already exposed some of our workers to Covid-19, infecting a handful of workers before the transmission risks were fully recognized. Difficult to do effectively and efficiently.

[QUOTE=Superman;11197412]I can see you regard the CDC as a reliable authoritative source, and I agree. /QUOTE]

Actually I don't trust the CDC, they have conflicting reports. I guess they feel they have to advise us of some form of "protection". It would sound so hopeless to tell us there's nothin you can really do but avoid people

Remember when we shut down the entire damn country for that same purpose and it didn’t do any good?

[QUOTE=gregpark;11197444] You cited the CDC. And now that the CDC says something you don't like.....

"We" have never "shut down the entire damn country," not even close. What on earth are you referring to? Health directives that prohibited indoor gatherings? How do you know that those did not do any good? The Covid numbers could have been triple with absolutely nothing done.

Your opinions really seem to be political, not medical or scientific. That's ok, as long as you realize it. They don't have any value wrt controlling the pandemic, though.

Of course masks are ineffective
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1611627452.jpg
The CDC study said so just a month ago
They change their minds? and apparently Fauci changed his mind at one point too

Here's more of the study I cited earlier. Straight from the US CDC

..........
In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20;*I2*=*30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2). One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9,10). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies (9,10). Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only (34), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only (35), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts (11–13,15,17). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group (11–13,15,17,34,35). Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza
.........
I don't know what to believe from an agency that talks out of both sides of the mouth if that's the case. I guess I'll just trust my own common sense telling me that a loose fitting mask is not going to protect either way from a microscopic bacteria

We were pretty well shut and locked down for quite a while. I was actually amazed at how shut down LA was.
The 10 and 110 freeway and Sunset Blvd., for example. It was remarkable.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1611631936.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1611631936.jpg

That looks apocalyptic.

It was

greg,
Read the limitations in the findings of the studies the CDC used in determining whether masks work.... Or not... your call. And please, make sure you use that meme a lot! It's exactly how a virus works and that vapor is exactly what the mask is trying to stop! They're useless! Don't wear them! Go on out and get your "herd immunity"!

Just found out one of our neighbors passed away last night . He had recently tested positive for Covid along with his adult son and daughter in law that lived there . Don't know anything about if they were mask wearers or not and really don't care . Add another one to the pile of folks that have passed from the virus 🙁 . He was a hospice worker so I am sure that increased his exposure . Sad

well...
Yoda now thinks wearing 2 mask might work....


Rika

You have that last part wrong. Emphatic, but wrong.

When respiratory viruses are shed via droplets, even more virus particles are shed in sub-droplet size.

Please make a note of it.

Or research this yourself.

A quick search on that claim gave me this light reading on the topic: https://www.pnas.org/content/115/5/1081

a snippet from that link.

To me, this whole thing should be an eye opener to every American... but it won't be. We were able to make planes, bombs, tanks and guns for a war effort but we can't produce enough masks to keep people in a healthcare environment protected. Men went off to fight faced with almost certain death in some instances... today you can't get them to put a mask on or to get a vaccination. The "greatest generation" has to look down in disbelief at what has happened to this country.

Mask wearing was maybe 10% here until the fall. We had 1 or 2 cases a week, then it became 50 a week and you slowly started seeing more masks. We're now at 3236 cases (8% of the population) and it's rare to see someone without a mask.

I know your training and education and I think you will appreciate the following: Define the terms "droplet" and "sub-droplet." Sure, a loogey is going to get stuck on the mask and would not pass through. And sure, an individual dry virus will almost certainly pass through. But how many exhaled viruses are individual and dry? Another form of the question is this: What proportion of exhaled virus particles are wet and accompanied in a droplet of water by dozens of other viruses? Even if that droplet is too small to see without a microscope. And if this is the vehicle that viruses actually use, then the "viruses are too small to be captured by a mask" starts to break down.

And then there is the question of how many viruses does it take to create an active infection. One single virus would not make someone sick, surely. A hundred billion would. What about 100 viruses? 1000? 10? And how many viruses are in those droplets which are large enough to be captured in a mask?

CDC says masks help. Greg is a medical researcher whose skills at evaluating studies are greater than that of the CDC. CDC says masks help. Greg knows otherwise, using CDC's own study? CDC cannot evaluate their own studies? I am unable to out-think CDC, or perhaps even Greg. We don't know that masks are ineffective. In fact, masks almost certainly have some effectiveness. Not enough to bother with? Maybe. But health organizations continue to urge their use. There must be a lot of really stupid doctors out there.

Unfortunately, the CDC has become an political entity as has the WHO. Both have totally reversed their position in the past year on this (and many other things). While it is possible that they have learned and changed their minds based on that, they have produced no evidence that is the case (as they typically would have). Until they do, I think I am comfortable with their evidence-based opinions prior to their politicization (which has resulted in massive salary increases and an exponentially larger budget). They learned well from the weather guys that became "climate change" experts.

Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc...(After this, therefore, because of this). We must be careful in drawing conclusions from various data and studies which are not causally proven. In the above examples, is it correct to say masks caused more infections? No. Is it correct to say more infections occurred while masks were being used? Yes. Does it mean masks are not effective? We don't know, because there has been no causal link proven (while it is possible, other factors have not been eliminated). This is the problem with most of the discussion and policy around the topic: a little data are being stretched WAY out there, depending on what spin (or conclusion) is desired. Unfortunately, I doubt we will see legitimate data and conclusions for a while. So much for "following the science". In the meantime, we are on our own as to coming to our own conclusions. My $0.02...

I don't know jack. I'm a just a dumb construction worker. I simply posted part of a study published by the CDC that seems to counter what they're saying now. I have a hard time trusting anything the government tells me anyway and this doesnt exactly instill more trust

In construction, do you ever change plans when it becomes clear something changed that might effect the build?

I'm sure does..
but these charlatans...
wave numbers of death and lack available ICU beds..
back and fort..
inserting news of a new strain every few days..
all while lying about what supposedly works and not..

Yoda's latest suggestion..
wear 2...
can't wait to hear about his plastic bag idea..

Rika

You mean the CDC did another study refuting the last? Didn't see that one

It's like wearing two rubbers with a "questionable" girl. Never can be too safe. :D

Yep.

I keep saying, masks are nothing but a minimal safety layer (at best.) But if people believe that their safety equipment is better than it actually is, they will take risks beyond the protection, rather than behaving as if they had no protection at all.

Football helmets, for example... Carbon fibre, memory foam... and suddenly players are hitting each other even harder. G'head and make a helmet out of paper Mache and think it will take the same hit. It will, as it busts open. Some will even insist that it MUST be giving SOME protection... But the net result is head injury - because the wearer believed it provides more protection than it actually could.

And here we have example after example of covid coming on strong where there is high mask compliance. People haven't a clue about the efficacy of their gaiter, their leopard print China mask... but they are told that if they wear this unrated POS that they are "safe." ...but should still be afraid. Home Depot? - OK. Church? - no way that can be safe. Rioting? - OK Wedding? - No way!

Funny how so much of what was proclaimed over the past year has changed in the last week:

"The American Journal of Medicine now (Jan. 2021) now recommends Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, and Zinc for the treatment of Covid 19 outpatients..."

Read the rest:
https://principia-scientific.com/the-american-journal-of-medicine-now-recommends-hcq-for-covid19/

That analysis seems pretty old.
"One could argue the results of definitive trials were needed at the outset of the pandemic, and certainly are needed now with more than 1 million cases and 500,000 deaths worldwide."

It is old... the article was published in August.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(20)30673-2/fulltext

also here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934320306732

Oops!
"Facial covering for all contacts within the home"

what is more safe; hugging a CV shedder while (both) wearing face masks or staying 10' away w/o facemasks?

notice that we do not have definitive answers to such an easy question. We simply get "do both, all the time."

Anyone shedding this virus... a puny little leaky mask is next to nothing at all. Except it makes some feel safe. So they force mask compliance to everyone. But at least this has shown to make no difference. The virus still rages along.

You are smarter than your posts would somethings suggest. :D. But then, I knew that already. Staying 10' away is preferable. Staying home, more preferable still. It seems that everything can be delivered. We placed a Costco order today, and you wouldn't believe how quickly it arrived. About as fast as if i had gone to Costco to get it. Costco is three miles away.

And sure, if masks make people forget other protocols, then that is unfortunate. What if everyone were smart and patriotic enough to practice all sensible measures?

It would be a fun Costco experiment... Who loses their shlt faster; someone observing a non-mask wearer 20' away from anyone, or someone observing a mask wearer 2' away from a masked old lady.

My bet is on the non-mask wearer causing the Karen meltdown.

But which is safer?

So just to add to the conversation here, this is directly from me talking with a surgeon in the OR last week while doing a product evaluation at a large teaching hospital in a large city where we have no shortage of COVID cases right now. - Yes I work in healthcare as does my wife and we both worked in the healthcare field for years. - The main points of this conversation last week.
You notice we seem to have all but cured the flu, almost overnight? (Pay no attention to the fact hospitals get paid more insurance money and Medicare/Medicare money if it is a COVID patient...
And look to be clear I’m not saying COVID is not real or its all a sham.
The second point of this conversation - go look at the numbers on the WHO web site for reported cases in Africa (south of the N African/Mediterranean countries). Numbers are low, why? The world class healthcare system they have?? Then why cant the effectively stop an Ebola outbreak? Could it be most of that population takes a weekly dose of anti malaria medicine?
Just questions to ponder...

Man, if there was ever someone whose phono needle was stuck in the same groove....

The facts just don't change...just because you want them to.

I've seen that photo before and there has never been a bigger crock of BS. He is supposed to be breathing out copius amounts of smoke but his mask is in a sucked in mode.

People are so fkcing vulnerable to absolute nonsense. I don't go out because I'm afraid of unanimous ignorance and stupidity.

That has to be a dept store dummy with a pipe through the back of his head hooked up to a Hollywood smoke machine. Anyone who would even post this ought to sent to somewhere like the South Pole where they can count penguins.

And if you don't believe me, then tell me how a real person could have that much smoke to exhale and still be standing.

Cue the next propaganda meme.

:rolleyes:

yer so smrat...

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