The curious case of the mask vs no mask
 

I went to Calaveras County a while back and a lot of people didn't wear masks in stores of other indoor venues. And restaurants were open! I asked why, and they said hardly anyone has covid, so they don't need to. I've talked to people who spend more time there, and they say masks are still eschewed often. So I checked on covid stats there. They still have had very few cases, with a total of 23 deaths, and only 2 deaths since November.

Meanwhile, in the Bay Area where we have had strict restrictions for a long time and it seems like everyone wears a mask even in the shower, people have been dropping like flies. Is this only because Calaveras County is rural? Maybe.

Rural townships here in AZ don't wear them. I walk in to the gas station, dollar stores, ect and the only people wearing masks are non locals stopping through. Head up more towards the small cities, and towns close to the indian reservations and everyone is wearing them.

Not like i'm against them. Conceals my identity so I don't have to talk to people I know...

Lots of pre-CV studies showing that anything short of an N95 is almost totally ineffective against a flu like illness. In addition the general public has no comprehension of medical mask wearing protocol making them typically contaminated. Fabric masks have actually been shown to enhance the distribution of aerosol droplets when exhaling, sneezing, etc. Even Fauci said that masks don’t work....until a few months later when the politicians needed to up the ante and flip the script to make things scarier.

Want proof? Go look at the numbers for the hardcore mask lockdown states vs the states that don’t treat their citizens like prisoners. The trends are very similar which tends to indicate that the lockdowns, masks, and distancing don’t do a damn thing. Remember “flatten the curve” and similar such BS? The curve didn’t flatten yet the restrictions remain. Curious that...

I'm pretty sure that Fauci never said that masks don't work, when he said that people did not need to wear masks was a time when there were very few cases in the USA and medical personnel did not have enough masks. There was panic buying and hoarding of N95 masks and he was trying to protect the supply for hospitals.

There was also not as much understood about the virus as there is now. I know that it's a popular rightwing talking point that Fauci supposedly said that masks don't work but it never really happened.

It's proven that he only thing masks do is stop particulate matter. It will protect others from your spit if you cough, sneeze or talk like Sylvester the cat. Masks obviously will not stop an airborne virus so small one needs a electron microscope to actually see it. What masks seem to do more than anything else is provide a false sense of security. Many people feel safe in large gatherings as long as they keep their "protective" mask on so could masks actually be causing a faster spread of the virus as opposed to slowing it?

The only time people that wear them in the county where I live is when they go to a doctor or to a big box store that makes them. If you take your pet to the Vet, go to an auto repair, gas station, smaller grocery store, gun store, etc....none of the employees wear them...and most customers do not. A few elderly people in nursing homes have died here in the past year (but they were isolated from the rest of us...and may well have died anyways...as people died there almost every day before the pandemic). No real lockdowns otherwise although a lot of people just get their restaurant food to go.

When I drove cross country this past summer, it was the same most places. People looked at you like you had two heads if you were wearing a cloth mask. Locals did not wear them.

If you want/need protection, someone else wearing one of these silly masks will not provide it. If you are at risk, you need to keep your distance and/or wear a respirator (N95 or better) to protect yourself.

I agree with this. When this started and I went to Walmart (before mask requirements), it was easy to keep 6ft or more distance. Now, with the masks, it is almost impossible as people simply squeeze up right next to you...thinking they are protected (I guess). Similar every place where they wear masks.

We assume we are in charge of our own fate and don't go to other people's homes or confined spaces...or invite anyone into our home. We have our own home and a vacation home to use and really only need food/toiletries. Everything else is available on line if you plane ahead. Generally, I go to the store or shop alone as I assume that taking my wife doubles the risk. I have generally tried to reduce grocery shopping to about once per week when they are not crowded vice two or more trips. Only a short time before the vaccine will be available...so why take unnecessary risks?

With 40 people per square mile, they're pretty much social distancing all the time. The tiny little county of Van Wert in Ohio has 70.3 residents per square mile. The even teeny tinier Putnam county has 47 inhabitants per square mile... and only 21 deaths.

Masks plus social distancing plus proper hygiene... and living in a low population density area doesn't hurt either.

Its a mix here. Up in the northern part of the county where my shop is, I would say mask wearing is about 50%, in the southern part, where are all the housing is , its pretty rare to see someone unmasked.
I don't wear my face diaper at work, but do when I go out in public .

Stay distanced

Wear a mask

Wash your hands.

My ex-urban town has 500 people per square mile! We've had 2500 cases and 15 deaths so far with a population of 22,000. Nearly all businesses require a mask . Our hardware store doesn't but all employees are masked.

I concur. From two perspectives:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/flashback-dr-fauci-claims-masks-dont-provide-covid-protection-only-help-people-feelbetter

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fauci-says-he-doesnt-regret-telling-americans-not-to-wear-masks-at-the-beginning-of-the-pandemic/ar-BB16P84e

I just wear the mask. In my part of the world it is rare to see someone NOT wearing the mask.

That said, I really work hard at distancing. When I go to my company in Yorktown we all wear the face shields and masks in meetings, often a video teleconference from folks in the same building:) The face shields may look goofy but they make our folks feel better.

I also used to like to stop and get snacks at a certain gas station driving down, which I don't do now...I bring all my own stuff and gas, wipe my hands down and scoot.

We went to the grocery store recently. Everyone had masks on, but about one third of them had their nose sticking out above the mask. They are technically wearing a mask, but it is totally useless for them and everyone else around them.

Hey Denis, are Fauci’s own words good enough? Some of you guys really need to educate yourselves from more than one media source.

https://youtu.be/5gYAka7qSnM

I know he said it but I do think the time and context is important.

I am not a Fauci fan, BTW. His AIDS works was horrific in the beginning.

Once again, he said it when there was a mask shortage for frontline workers in hospitals and there were very few cases in the U.S. A lot has been learned since then as well.

What is he saying wrt mask wearing now? Do you prefer health directive info on the pandemic from a year ago to current info? Do you have any idea how many conservative, anti-mask people have died of Covid? It’s a huge number.

People simply do not understand the function of any kind of mask. Just look around at all the goofy masks and how they're worn. I reuse masks of different design and am prone to double up. This only in rotation after masks have been hung out in the sum for 2 days.

I do believe part of the mask requirement is simply awareness. No way are you not cognizant of a mask on your face, therefore you're in defensive mode taking care to wash your hands, not touch anything in public you don't have to, and carrying a sanitizing wipe with you at all times when facing tasks like pushing elevator buttons, etc.

Hell, I have not directly touched an elevator button in years. I believe that the ones that worked as a heat sensitive fixed button have all been replaced. I haven't seen one for quite awhile.

In SoCal we've been wiping down shopping carts before use for years. Also the statewide ban on single use plastic bags has gone by the wayside, sort of. If you bring your onw bags into the store, only you are allowed to bag your stuff. This often causes a bottleneck so it's easier to just say yes to new bags. Note: he bags being used these days are heavy duty and could be used over and over. But....

Fellows, we are all getting this.

“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”

Unfortunately, Fauci himself started the whole anti masking thing when he went on national TV and said that very early on.

There’s never been a shortage of cloth face coverings.
It took Fauci months to learn that a cloth face covering can help prevent the spread of a respiratory flu-like virus?
After a long lifetime of studying viruses, he just learned that last year?

2 different arguments at play Matt. One being the mask doesn't reduce the spread by an infected person. The other a mask doesn't offer the person wearing it protection. What Faucci said was the second one.

I agree 100% that Faucci started the whole mask/no mask debate along with Surgeon General Adams saying roughly the same thing Faucci did. But neither man said said they don't work as Matt claims Faucci did. Both said they don't offer the person wearing the mask the protection they're thinking it does. That statement was a HUGE mistake.

This is a paragraph from a May 2020 meta study by the US CDC

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza

This whole thing has been a Monkey F'ing a Football since the WHO colluded with China...the preparation (why was there a shortage of PPE?) of the CDC for this type of breakout is inexcusable.

There are a number of studies, primarily pre-CV (if you can find them), that put effectiveness at something like 8-12% for the typical blue surgical masks. The fabric masks were found to be negligible. Also there have been recent studies that found that fabric masks also tend to better disperse droplets, essentially dissipating them into smaller droplets that are easier to spread. What Fauci originally said was the truth, anything short of an N95 (worn properly and replaced regularly) is trying to keep out mosquitos with a chain link fence. Sorry but THAT is “trust the science”. A filter that doesn’t have the ability to filter small particles is not a very effective filter.

If there is nothing to transmit, there is no need for masks.

Problem with the Bay Area is 1) how dense the population is and 2) how dense the population is.

Again... prevent infection of the person wearing it is not the same as reducing the spread by the person wearing it. You can find all sorts of studies that show varied levels of effectiveness at preventing but few that dispute the effectiveness at reducing the viral particles spread by an infected person. To say "they don't offer the wearer protection" is not the same as saying "they don't reduce the spread by an infected person.

So you’re claiming that the effectiveness of the mask is more effective in one direction than the other?

This is a difficul topic because:

1. Places that require them may have low compliance with lower face coverings.

2. Places that do not require them may have a high percentage of wears of lower face coverings

3. Wearing improperly doesn't help and may hurt.


I consider the effectiveness when related to the general public to be on par with a little star sticker put on your shirt. There are exceptional circumstances, proper equipment, proper fit, and prolonged face to face.

It is rare for me to see when I am out shopping someone without a low face covering despite it not being required. I do see lots of bad habits though.
I have to wonder at the emotional toll of not seeing a proper full face smile in public.

What happened to the flu? It is basically non existent.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03519-3

https://consumer.healthday.com/b-1-15-what-happened-to-the-flu-this-year-2649917471.html

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article248307290.html

From the last link:
“We are testing thousands of people in our emergency room settings and in our hospitals for a combination of COVID and flu, and we’re essentially seeing no flu,” Dr. Randy Bergen, a flu expert with health care company Kaiser Permanente, told ABC7. “Some weeks we’ll have no cases, others we’ll have maybe one or two.”
Health officials in the southern hemisphere — including Australia and South America, where the seasons are reversed — said their flu season was virtually nonexistent while coronavirus cases were spreading like wildfire.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says national flu activity “remains lower than usual,” including flu-related hospitalizations, but there’s still time for it to increase in the coming months.

In the worldmeter stats SF county has 293 deaths.

Forgive my ignorance but what counties are considered the Bay Area?

Santa Clara, surely. 1,234 there.

Just asking. Not planning to wrestle.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/california/

This is something I was wondering early last year.

Flu deaths although estimated rather than actual are quite high.
It didn't get attention because most Flu deaths were people on the way out or with other issues that compounded.

There is an entirey seperate aspect here - if what we're doing is inneffective against CV19 are face coverings and careful choice of socializing ridding us of flu?

It also raises the question, how does CV19 get around under circumstances FLU doesn't?

I was just being hyperbolic and making a point about the comparison. I don't think people really where masks in showers either. But compared to the very low rate of cases and deaths in Calaveras County to most of the Bay Area, the death rate in the Bay Area is considerably higher. Calaveras County has had 2 deaths since late October / early November.

SF County has a surprisingly low death rate for an area that's so densely populated. Incidentally, they've had about 900 deaths from drug overdoses since covid started.

Did you know we have a subforum for you to act like this?

From the Mercury News 12/20/20

SAN FRANCISCO — A record 621 people died of drug overdoses in San Francisco so far this year, a staggering number that far outpaces the 173 deaths from COVID-19 the city has seen thus far.

Death counts are not fair for argument.
Who is counting and the protocols they follow introduce variance.
Objectively Frustrating.

George Floyd died with CV19 according to the protocol of having a positive test and the time frame from that positive test in which he died.

There may be some causes of death where objectivity applies well, but CV19 has not been one of them.

There's no doubt in my mind that the 173 is a grossly Inflated number and the 621 is accurate

A mask worn by an infected person can reduce "large" droplets that are considered the greatest path of transmission. Where it gets sketchy is how much it reduces particles containing the virus that can remain suspended in the air for longer periods of time. But in an instance where large particles are present, the mask can both reduce the spread of viral particles and reduce what the person wearing it might come in contact with.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

Viruses are smaller than the length of a light wave and therefore cannot be seen without an electron microscope, so it just stands to reason that masks would be ineffective. But wait! Geniuses regularly admit that masks would stop droplets. Well....exhaled viruses are all in droplets. Every one of them. Some droplets are filtered by masks but not all. Many are, however. The research suggests masks are somewhat effective in slowing transmission. Unless your "research" comes from certain sources.

The Western third of Washington State is fairly densely populated and also, predictably, more educated and wealthier and more liberal. The Eastern two thirds is rural. Despite being more sparsely populated, the Eastern two thirds of the state have been the sites of the most ferocious of Covid outbreaks. They don't wear masks much.

Refusal to wear masks is pure, unadulterated selfishness. and/or ignorance.

I do not leave my property, and we receive no guests. Now is not the time to let one's guard down. Think about this: If everyone were to stay home for 2-4 weeks, the rate of infection would virtually go to zero. If they then practiced mask-wearing and social distancing and avoiding unnecessary exposure, then 4000 Americans would not die each day. If course, it is not practical for everyone to stay home for 2-4 weeks but it is possible for many, and I think we could drive the infection rate way down if we copped some discipline and responsibility.

This is sourced from the US CDC research study done in 2020

"Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza"