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-   -   Texans, how you holding up? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1086134-texans-how-you-holding-up.html)

Eric 951 02-18-2021 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brainz01 (Post 11230555)
You have PARF’d up this thread with with countless assertions that are patently false. Texas has building codes, regulation, and has public utilities. Duh. But this event was generally not planned for. By anyone. Full stop. And that may have been a reasonable assumption.

You see, and this may be a surprise, but it doesn’t tend to get really cold here very often. If it did, we’d of course have invested in appropriate measures. No one said this was an unsolvable problem. It’s just not a problem that was likely to happen, so the money didn’t get spent.

If you lived here, I’d give you more room to claim that you’d seen this event coming. But as someone that’s been in the energy industry for almost 3 decades on both the power and oil and gas side, I can tell you that this was a very long-tail, unprecedented event. No one was predicting this. No one had thought through the interdependencies of all the systems that failed.

Texas, in addition to be a leading producer of oil and gas, is also the leading producer of renewable energy in the US. We have some of the cheapest power in the nation. It’s one of the reasons that businesses are relocating here. I’ve not paid more than 8c/kWh for electricity for more than a decade (and often much less). Much of that is due to our deregulated (but not regulation-free) power markets. Yep, it’s been money in my pocket, and the pockets of my fellow Texans.

In my opinion, there’s no single group to blame (except maybe Canada), but ironically, the primary issue was that natural gas production was curtailed by wellhead and processing freeze-offs due to the extreme cold. There was reportedly 8Bcf/d of gas shut-in in Texas as a result. That’s a lot of gas — gas that would have been more than adequate to keep the lights on and heat homes. Interestingly, despite such shut in volumes, gas production overall was up. Why? Because of free markets and the fact that those that had working wells let ‘em rip. For producers that weren’t hedged this was a bonanza — Q1 earnings season will be interesting indeed. But gas demand was higher, and gas LDC demand (for heating) effectively takes precedence over electricity usage. While electricity can be switched on and off, turning off the gas is a much bigger/slower deal.

Not that renewables get a pass. They went down too. But if more gas had been available, we’d not had as much of an issue.

This is a very complicated situation, and there are solutions that could have helped. Here’s a few off the cuff:

- Require additional wellhead insulation and heat tracing — that relatively minimal cost gets passed on to all consumers (even outside Texas) — could happen
- Require winterized turbines — might happen
- Build more nukes or coal, and have them as a larger percentage of base load — never gonna happen
- Make more stringent building codes/insulation standards — could happen, but wont change all the existing stock of older, under insulated homes, so limited impact

All of these options would have increased costs and likely gone unused for very long periods of time. Many would argue it would be wasted money.

So yeah, TX could have done more, but it’s hard to blame them for not wanting to spend money such long-tail events. It keeps Texas affordable and less draconian than many other well-intentioned but over-governed places. As dramatic and uncomfortable as this has been, it pales in comparison to the damage wrought by hurricanes and flooding we regularly see.

Thankfully, it’s unlikely we see another freeze like this again soon. Don’t get me wrong, my friends and I are already planning our winter emergency kits once the stores are re-stocked: Pipe insulation, duct tape, Sharkbite fittings, and more. Better to be prepared. We’re prepared for hurricanes, and sweating it out while we wait for the power to come back, not freezing in our houses. But unless we see another storm like this again soon, I doubt any real change happens. Until proven otherwise, it was a black swan.


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excellent post describing the current situation and possible future prevention--not just knee-jerk bashing of Texas as some of the uninformed have been doing.

David 02-18-2021 03:21 PM

Glad to hear you’re making it through ok Jamie. Looks like y’all got more snow today!

Something else that needs to be addressed is how the rolling blackouts didn’t work as planned. Instead an hour off and an hour on we got a day off an hour on and another day off. I’m not too familiar with transmission and distribution side of the power business but it sounds like their switching systems didn’t work any better than the power plants.


PS thanks brainz

Seahawk 02-18-2021 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric 951 (Post 11230572)
excellent post describing the current situation and possible future prevention--not just knee-jerk bashing of Texas as some of the uninformed have been doing.

It was a great post.

Thanks brainz.

Sooner or later 02-18-2021 03:23 PM

Yes it was

David 02-18-2021 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by group911@aol.co (Post 11230567)
Maybe the answer is to require the power provider to insure the loss due to failure to deliver?

I’m not real familiar with the trading part of the business but it’s my understanding if you sell the power you have to provide the power. Meaning if you sold power a year ahead at $40/MWh and you can’t generate it when you said you would you, the generator, are stuck buying it at market rate to replace it. Max rate in Texas is limited to $9,000/MWh but I’m pretty sure that was far exceeded on Monday.

Of course nobody would buy summer generation quantities of power ahead for February. So no retail supplier would have enough power purchased at reasonable prices so they’re screwed.

red-beard 02-18-2021 03:40 PM

Update:

I was able to get cold water on last night, which meant working toilets and cold hand washing.

Today, replaced 3/4" copper line at my fathers place, he now has full water.

I found the break in my hot water line and repaired the elbow. In the process, I moved the two under sink hot water valves in a better location (away from electrical). Waiting for CPVC glue to set. I think I'm going to wait to the morning to reactivate hot water.

I'm tired. Have I mentioned how much I hate plumbing?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613695115.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613695166.jpg

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wdfifteen 02-18-2021 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog (Post 11230389)
Well, you did ask, now didn’t you?

No, I didn’t ask about your petty narcissistic pissing match. I asked what outsiders can do to help the people of Texas.
I don’t care about you or your opinions. I am concerned about the people who are living through this nightmare.

javadog 02-18-2021 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen (Post 11230617)
No, I didn’t ask about your petty narcissistic pissing match. I asked what outsiders can do to help the people of Texas.
I don’t care about you or your opinions. I am concerned about the people who are living through this nightmare.

Lighten up Francis, it was a joke.

Rikao4 02-18-2021 04:22 PM

some Neighbors had it bad..
just flat footed..
me..
some pool pipes to tub and heater busted..
plugged..
handle later when warmer..
no heat or water 72 hrs here..
Ladies of the Hood are amazed at the 'camping gear' I have..
propane for generators mine and others...
camp stove..batteries..all vehicles tanked up..
a hiccup to learn from..
but I can & will improve..

Rika

Rawknees'Turbo 02-18-2021 04:26 PM

One thing's for sure, despite possible faults in planning and finger pointing by those involved, you can bet your BBs that the hands-on workers have been busting their asses in the cold to deal with this shiitstorm.

masraum 02-18-2021 04:30 PM

I left our property because there was no water (other than melted snow) and I had no idea what the electric situation was going to be. I also wasn't happy about the missus having to deal with the issue on her end by herself.

Turns out that our rural power folks did a great job with the rolling blackouts. I have a SOHO/enterprise type Cellular hotspot/router device at the property. That device keeps track of uptime. Looks like the property was mostly 1 hour off and 2 hours on.

It was quite impressive actually.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613698161.jpg

I'd like to go out and inspect the place tomorrow, but I'll probably work tomorrow (haven't worked yet this week) and then go out on Sat.

Our realtor's boyfriend went and checked it out yesterday. He said that as far as he could tell, it looked pretty good. Hopefully, we got lucky. Lucky or not, I'll be making a bunch of changes out there over the next year or two.

masraum 02-18-2021 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo (Post 11230675)
One thing's for sure, despite possible faults in planning and finger pointing by those involved, you can bet your BBs that the hands-on workers have been busting their asses in the cold to deal with this shiitstorm.

Absolutely. I've seen some folks whining and biitching online about the power companies and water companies. It was silly and sometimes disgusting, but then there are lots of idiots out there.

brainz01 02-18-2021 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo (Post 11230675)
One thing's for sure, despite possible faults in planning and finger pointing by those involved, you can bet your BBs that the hands-on workers have been busting their asses in the cold to deal with this shiitstorm.


Damn right. There’s an army of men and women in Carhartts, hard hats, and white F150s putting this all back together.

I offer them all my sincere thanks.

God Bless Texas.


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speeder 02-18-2021 05:01 PM

At the minimum, what would it take to make most houses in Texas winter-proof against a future event like this? Would insulating the pipes better do it? I have no idea what exactly happened down there, other than the blackouts.

group911@aol.co 02-18-2021 05:03 PM

By loss, I mean a dollar loss and they would have to pay the damage claim that an insurer would.
It's all a numbers game. The climate folks have been warning of new extremes both high and low for years and like the tobacco companies, the energy companies have been working to squash and discredit the studies as folly. Well, guess what, the chicken comes home to roost. They failed to provide for what they were warned about and had more than likely promised to deliver. It would be equally laughable to give the insurers a pass on payouts by using the "how were we to know" defense.
Unfortunately, the consumers were also complicit in the ruse. They chose to follow the hucksters promising cheap power with no downside. Guess what? It ain't possible and now everybody pays the piper including me.
Your leaders were and continue to march you down the false narrative path and I'll bet the lemmings are lined up.
Like good soldiers, the field workers are thankfully lined up to bail us out of another catastrophe. Are we going to learn and invest in our future? Probably not. Gotta chase that short term gain.
Quote:

Originally Posted by David (Post 11230592)
I’m not real familiar with the trading part of the business but it’s my understanding if you sell the power you have to provide the power. Meaning if you sold power a year ahead at $40/MWh and you can’t generate it when you said you would you, the generator, are stuck buying it at market rate to replace it. Max rate in Texas is limited to $9,000/MWh but I’m pretty sure that was far exceeded on Monday.

Of course nobody would buy summer generation quantities of power ahead for February. So no retail supplier would have enough power purchased at reasonable prices so they’re screwed.


Rawknees'Turbo 02-18-2021 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speeder (Post 11230754)
At the minimum, what would it take to make most houses in Texas winter-proof against a future event like this? Would insulating the pipes better do it? I have no idea what exactly happened down there, other than the blackouts.

The vulnerability of water pipes, especially in older homes and apartments (which there are scores of, of course) is a big issue. For example, my house was built in the mid 1960s and I just found that the pipes within the walls, including the outer walls, are wrapped in fiberglass that is backed with paper (the seam is stapled), so by now, the paper has degraded, staples rusted to hell, and it's falling apart and off. Of course, it would be a huge job to address this, including cutting out a lot of wall board. I found an example of that when I cut away a panel to get to a frozen pipe in an east wall.

group911@aol.co 02-18-2021 05:08 PM

Ronnie
I look at insulation as infrastructure that we need to invest in. Hot or cold out is irrelevant. The more the merrier.
Seriously, we have places in the hottest city in the country and I can't believe how poorly it's done and it doesn't make it uncomfortably just in the heat. We're here right now and it's a damn icebox when nighttime temps only drop to the 50's. The new building codes in CO are stringent for good reason. It seems onerous up front but the payoff is immeasurable.
Invest in it now would be my advice.

Jolly Amaranto 02-18-2021 05:17 PM

When I moved into my current house in 1986, the first thing I did was to put split foam tubing on all the pipes just layout out above the rafters in the attic. Then rolled out fiberglass bat on top of that. I still had the outside pipe for the main water supply to the house freeze even though it was wrapped in foam tubing and duct tape over that. I had to rip all that stuff off to thaw the pipe with a heat gun. It was durn cold fer sher. I had replace all the old galvanized steel pipe with PEX a few years ago because it was springing leaks due to corrosion. Standard practice plumbing in these houses is not up to this kind of cold but it is less expensive to install. If folks don't want to pay for better construction, they are not going to build it. As they say, you get what you pay for.

brainz01 02-18-2021 05:21 PM

Texans, how you holding up?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by speeder (Post 11230754)
At the minimum, what would it take to make most houses in Texas winter-proof against a future event like this? Would insulating the pipes better do it? I have no idea what exactly happened down there, other than the blackouts.


It certainly would have helped to be better insulated, but remember: I’ve heard of folks that were without power for up to 3 days. Their house was nearing the outside temps. Pipe insulation only goes so far, particularly when many homes are built for hot damp weather.

The real issue here is that we got caught with massively more demand for energy (mostly natural gas) that was available (in part due to frozen infrastructure). And because the blackouts happened, stuff got cold real quick.

Plenty of places in the US deal with far colder temps regularly. But the don’t do it without power. And they’re setup with insulated basements, fireplaces, propane, backup generators, etc.

It was a freak set of storms. It’s not typically been that cold here to need such measures.


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pmax 02-18-2021 05:22 PM

Raw,
Time to bone up on the caveman lifestyle.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613701329.jpg

Carry on !


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