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-   -   Texans, how you holding up? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1086134-texans-how-you-holding-up.html)

Jolly Amaranto 02-26-2021 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by javadog (Post 11240362)
Nobody I know would run a water line above the ceiling joists in an attic, insulated or not.
That was pretty standard building practice not too long ago. The four houses I have lived in since moving to Texas in 1967 have all been built that way. The house I am in now was built in 1983. The first thing I did after buying this house in 1986 was to insulate the pipes with split foam tubing and rolled fiberglass bat out over the top of that. Also, all the HVAC duct work is strung out through the UN-conditoned attic as well. It only has an R value of about 4 when new. Cook it in the attic for a few decades and the plastic sheathing on the outside crumbles so who knows what the R value is then. I replaced all mine about 10 years ago. The new trend is to insulate and condition the attic but there are probably builders out there still doing it the old way.

group911@aol.co 02-26-2021 06:35 AM
So, maybe the future insurance policies will exclude damage caused by shoddy or improper construction? If regulation or building codes can't change things, having to pay for the damage yourself might.
Doesn't seem like the insurers are going to be in great shape after this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by red-beard (Post 11240367)
All of my parents water lines were insulated. My lines that broke were insulated. That wasn't the issue.

1. No Electricity - No electricity, no heat.
2. No water pressure - Water was stagnant
3. Cold Air - It was 6F at my house.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the heat losses and insulation requirements are built around a maximum of a 30F differential temperature, which is maximal summertime high vs. interior temperature. Our normal winter temperatures would produce similar differential temperatures.

A lot of the issue was design/installation/permitting. In the county, permits are not required for most things. So, no construction, plumbing or electrical review before closing the walls. And most of the construction contractors are not required to have licensed electrician/plumbers during the construction phase. Maybe this needs to change.

My house, a hot water pipe was just too close to the outside wall. It was in the insulation, not on the house side of the insulation. At my parents, the water main line went through an unheated, open attic in the garage. It has a tee line for a hose bib as well. Both were insulated, but the area was unheated. It was not enough with stagnant water and 6F air temps.

The "solution" is to require the water main come into warm part of the house directly. And to have an inspection of the house prior to closing the walls. One of my friends built a house about 7 years ago. I suggested he hire an engineer to inspect the job for structure, plumbing and electrical. The house was basically perfect, since they caught a bunch of issues.

masraum 02-26-2021 06:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by javadog (Post 11240362)
Water lines from the main to a house have traditionally been buried below the frost line. This depth varies, as the frost line varies with latitude. Generally, the pipes are buried far below it. I haven't buried anything (water, gas, electric, etc.) less than 36 inches deep, ever. That's well below the frost line in the parts of Texas that were hit hardest.

Water lines are typically insulated where they come out of the ground and through the slab. Slab on grade construction is the typical standard now.
Most of Texas has no frostline as far as I can tell. There are a few counties (below) in Texas with frostlines. None of the counties around Houston have a frostline. There are years where we (Houston area) may not drop below freezing, or at the very least, not ever get a "hard freeze". I haven't checked, but I assume the counties listed below are mostly in the far north part of Texas.

https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tl oc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=10&pt=1&ch=80&rl=21
Quote:
(1) The following Texas counties have a 12 inch frost line depth to consider for the installation of a new manufactured home: Armstrong, Bailey, Briscoe, Carson, Castro, Childress, Cochran, Collingsworth, Cottle, Crosby, Dallam, Deaf Smith, Dickens, Donley, Floyd, Foard, Gray, Hale, Hall, Hansford, Hardeman, Hartley, Hemphill, Hockley, Hutchinson, King, Knox, Lamb, Lipscomb, Lubbock, Moore, Motley, Ochiltree, Oldham, Parmer, Potter, Randall, Roberts, Sherman, Swisher, Wheeler, and Wilbarger.

Sooner or later 02-26-2021 06:47 AM
When you are in a steel cage match with Mother Nature, Mother Nature is always the prohibitive favorite

flatbutt 02-26-2021 06:49 AM
12 inches? Wow. Up here the frostline is 36 inches and we typically go to 48 inches for water and footings.

javadog 02-26-2021 06:49 AM
Here's a map that gives a general idea. NW Texas gets colder than you think.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614354521.png

masraum 02-26-2021 06:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red-beard (Post 11240367)
At my parents, the water main line went through an unheated, open attic in the garage.
Our old house that we lived in for ~18 years was built in 1967. The plumbing in the house is galvanized pipe. The water came in through the slab on the northwest corner of the garage. The pipe then ran up the wall, then east and then south through the garage attic into the house. All of the plumbing inside the house, IIRC, then ran through the ceiling between the 1st and 2nd floors. None of the pipe was insulated in any way. I crawled over it 100 times over the years when moving around up in the attic.

I'm hoping that the folks that bought the house didn't have any issues, but no idea. hopefully, the galvanized pipe and the fact that the heat was a gas furnace helped them. They were no where near a hospital, fire house or police station, so they may have had extended power outages like our daughter's new home did. In that case, then it would likely have been a matter of luck.

Fortunately, they are on the southeast side of Houston, so their temps were the higher temps for the area (nearer the coast), but they probably still got down to 15º.

javadog 02-26-2021 06:57 AM
It's not just a matter of what the lowest temperature might be. It's also, "how long does a cold snap stay below freezing?"

Sometimes it gets colder than normal. Sometimes it stays colder than normal for a longer period of time.

URY914 02-26-2021 06:58 AM
OK isolation may not be the solution when there is no water pressure to move the water.
How about adding a valve to drain the system and then open all the faucets up to further drain water from the lines. It won't get all the water out but it may allow the water to expand and not blow out the pipes.

masraum 02-26-2021 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by URY914 (Post 11240451)
OK isolation may not be the solution when there is no water pressure to move the water.
How about adding a valve to drain the system and then open all the faucets up to further drain water from the lines. It won't get all the water out but it may allow the water to expand and not blow out the pipes.
Yep, I'm thinking spigot right after the main cutoff.

URY914 02-26-2021 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masraum (Post 11240455)
Yep, I'm thinking spigot right after the main cutoff.
And then open all the sinks and bath/showers up if its piped from above.

Sooner or later 02-26-2021 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by javadog (Post 11240446)
It's not just a matter of what the lowest temperature might be. It's also, "how long does a cold snap stay below freezing?"

Sometimes it gets colder than normal. Sometimes it stays colder than normal for a longer period of time.
That is what people are missing. In SW Oklahoma I actually had two days where the daily high was lower than the old daily record low. One of those days we set an all time record low for any day of -12. We went 12 days where temps never rose above freezing. The old record was something like 90 hours below freezing. We went over 250. It was relentless.

Sooner or later 02-26-2021 07:16 AM
We had multiple broken water mains. One of the middle schools is shut down for the remainder of the year due to water damage. 3 elementary schools (one newly built state of the art) shut down for probably the next month due to water damage. Our Great Plains Museum flooded due to pipes breaking.

My water pressure was low for 3 days due to all the breaks. This past Monday our high was 81.

javadog 02-26-2021 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masraum (Post 11240455)
Yep, I'm thinking spigot right after the main cutoff.
Believe it or not, lots of houses don't even have that. The only way to turn off the water is at the meter.

Which reminds me, most meters have little to no soil on top of the meter and piping in the meter can. The pipe may be buried deep enough but that section is usually exposed to the outside air.

Guess what happens next?

javadog 02-26-2021 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by URY914 (Post 11240465)
And then open all the sinks and bath/showers up if its piped from above.
One thing you can do is kill the water at the meter, then open all of the faucets and valves. You'll drain just about everything down to the level of the lowest faucet, wherever that may be. Usually, it's a hose bib on the outside somewhere. You'll have to drain the water heater separately.

masraum 02-26-2021 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by javadog (Post 11240481)
Believe it or not, lots of houses don't even have that. The only way to turn off the water is at the meter.

Which reminds me, most meters have little to no soil on top of the meter and piping in the meter can. The pipe may be buried deep enough but that section is usually exposed to the outside air.

Guess what happens next?
Right, around here, the meter, pipes and valves are in a 18"x12"x18" hole in the ground with a 1/4" of plastic above it.

javadog 02-26-2021 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masraum (Post 11240486)
Right, around here, the meter, pipes and valves are in a 18"x12"x18" hole in the ground with a 1/4" of plastic above it.
And that plastic lid has a hole in it.

It might be a good idea to throw a couple layers of tight-fitting mineral wool in there when it gets cold.

stomachmonkey 02-26-2021 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sooner or later (Post 11240473)
....One of the middle schools is shut down for the remainder of the year due to water damage

This past Monday our high was 81.
Same here, you are roughly 1.5 hours NW of me.

Sooner or later 02-26-2021 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11240522)
Same here, you are roughly 1.5 hours NW of me.
Temps changed fast

stomachmonkey 02-26-2021 08:16 AM
Lost power again last night.

This time torrential rain with coin size hail and lightning.

We had something like 1.200 strikes in the area over a 2hour hour period.


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