Accupuncture: Real / BS / in between ?
 

Just went yesterday for the second time ever. First time was a disaster (another person, no result, forgot 2 needles in my legs, ouch). A tennis friend recently swore by this other practitioner and recommended that I give it another go. Nothing to lose but some $.

Bear in mind I'm very scientifically minded, consider chiropractors quacks (read the text book behind their pseudo science, it's shocking in BS content), and definitely was not gonna benefit from a placebo effect due to my doubting attitude. I went for recurring plantar fascia (not something that gets better overnight) and some ulnar nerve entrapment issue (fingers getting numb with bent elbow)... It was somewhat painful (bigger needles that normal she said, + electric stimulation) and I hated being stuck on that table knowing I could not move for the duration - looking like Hellraiser's pinhead.

This morning, a day after, little difference in the elbow/fingers, but... I walked barefoot to the bathroom right out of bed. No pain. Still a stiff achilles/calf, but no pain underfoot. It's not 100% healed of course, but those of you who have experienced PF know that you do not go from "ouch, let me find shoes" right out of bed to no pain overnight. So something did happen. I'm gonna go again and give her a chance to do her thing some more - she said one more time, not roping me in for life like a chiro would. I don't quite believe in accupuncture but I also believe in things that appear to work, so...

Opinions on the practice in general ? I find it doubtful they can pinpoint exact accupuncture points precisely everytime on people just by eyeballing it. I don't really buy the "chi" balancing crap. But it did "something" to me. I felt it then, I am feeling it now. Intriguing.

For sure something is being stimulated, which is causing some type of effect. Exactly what that is and how it works, and why it works, etc. is up to the biochemists and A&P/neuroscience geeks.

For something like pain control/management I can see exactly how interrupting a CNS signal and overriding it with a different one would work. How it would work longer-term w/o constantly having a needle, etc in place I'm not sure about. Ghost pain/sensation from amputated limbs would be another candidate for signal-interruption treatments.

For giggles I think apply some grade school science fair type science to the process may help you figure it out for your own case. Start a journal immediately regarding the change in what you are feeling, etc. and how it may relate to your treatment. Would've been great to have a few weeks worth before the first treatment, but start now and be accurate as possible, and track it through the second visit and a month or three after. If symptoms re-appear and you are considering more treatment, start the journal a week or so ahead of time. See if you can spot a trend and a change in the trend related to the treatment dates.

I ruptured my achilles last June and had surgical repair. During physio I have received multiple sessions of dry needling, which is what you are describing. Its a western medicines approach to accupuncture, slightly larger gage needles, sometimes electric current, and the needles are usually manipulated not just inserted. Jabbed around a bunch into the tense muscle bind. And I'll be damned if it isn't hugely effective. Not a one shot fix, but restores some mobility and feeling to tight muscles, loosens up every time a perceptible amount.

Ouch.... Yes to that, that is pretty much what she did, and the manipulation was not pleasant. Sorry to hear about your achilles, that is a fear of mine, I always worry it's gonna go - so stiff.. Im still feeling most of the needle spots she hit a day after. Let's just say I am keeping an open mind !

Did two months of acupuncture and it stopped chronic migraines. Could have been someting else? sure.

Seemed to work for me

Back in the 70's my mom ( RIP ) suffered from migraine headaches . I mean terrible take her to the ER kind where they basically knocked her out with drugs . This went on for years , she would sometimes be in her bedroom for 2-3 days at a time with the room pitch black .

Went to many doctors and even a physciatrist to try and get relief but nothing helped 😠 . Then there was an article in our newspaper that a new accupuncture doctor/facility was opening in our town . I think my mom might have been one of the first five patients through their door . It was a long time ago but I vaguely remember she went for less than 10 treatments total .

From the day of her last treatment to the day she passed away ( about 40 years ) she NEVER had another migraine headache !!! Not one it really was a miracle . Her quality of life increased ten fold . She would feel a headache coming on , take two aspirin and lay down . Half an hour later good to go . So yes for some people it works great , for others not so much .......... just like conventional medicine 😊 . I have known some folks that couldn't stop smoking , went for accupuncture and boom they quit. Again doesn't work for all and I am sure the expertise of the accupuncturist plays into the outcome also . I am a firm believer just based on my mom .

My mantra for the aches and pains I suffer from past injuries is nothing ventured, nothing gained...I just won't do pain killers/drugs.

I even tried a chiropractor:cool:

My regime now is working but if the severe pain returns, I'll give acupuncture a roll.

Best of luck!

I think you are wrong to dismiss chiropractors completely. I would not let a chiro manipulate my neck or practice some of their diabetic quackery on me, but for lower back pain, wrist injuries, and some other minor stuff I have always left the building feeling much better.

If the pain were bad enough, I'd try almost anything.

Side note (and I appreciate your reply very much), it's harder to take medical advice from a "Nostril Cheese", you know ? ;-) But joking aside, thanks all for your answers, I was expecting more negative comments but the lack thereof so far is a good indication there may be something to it. If it works for me, eh...

My MIL was suffering from migraines. Normal science wasn't working. I had her visit Richard Tan who was a famous acupuncturist (has since passed away). He took care of her migraines and they never returned.

While not acupuncture, this one falls into the chiropractic category.

Having grown up in Chicago, we of course still talk about the 1985 Bears. There is an interesting story about Jim McMahon who thought he was suffering from dementia, and serious effects of CTE. He was ready to take his life. It ends up the main problem was a neck injury that was never addressed.

1985 Super Bowl Champion Jim McMahon on Chiropractic:
“Miraculous and Life-Changing”
A few years ago, one of the 1985 Super Bowl champions, Jim McMahon of the Chicago Bears, believed he was in the early stages of dementia.

According to McMahon’s physician Dr. Raymond Damadian, McMahon suffered from Cranio-Cervical Syndrome (CCS), which was causing him his pain. The issues McMahon struggled with originated because of injury to his neck.

Dr. Damadian referred him to a chiropractor after the he was unable to treat McMahon for this devastating condition. McMahon’s symptoms included slurred speech, headaches, foggy thought process, pressure in the skull, forgetfulness and mood swings.

Dr. Damadian, inventor of the FONAR Upright MRL, and New York chiropractor Dr. Scott Rosa partnered by using X-rays and the MRI to diagnose and create a treatment plan for McMahon. A scan using the FONAR Upright MRI revealed that McMahon had a significant misalignment at the base of his skull. The misalignment impeded the flow of his spinal fluid.

Dr. Rosa used his patented Image Guided Atlas Treatment (IGAT) to successfully treat and reverse McMahon’s dementia symptoms.

McMahon has called his chiropractic treatments “miraculous and life changing.”

Byron is big on the acupuncture. I'd expect him to drop in.

Have never done it but always wanted to and have enough chronic issues that I would know if it worked or not.

So the question becomes, how do you find someone like your second practitioner the first time?

Glad it's worked for you and thanks for posting.

I've used acupuncture with success. Like anything else YYMV, of course.

For those who would dismiss it out of hand, who believe that any gains or relief is nothing more than the placebo effect, I would ask them to explain its efficacy on animals.

_

My wife is an anesthesiologist, who trained to do acupuncture during her Harvard fellowship. Its not BS. I have no clue how/why it works. I would also point out that acupressure can also be very effective.

I vote BS. One of the problems is that it is hard to do double-blind studies as it is difficult to give the patients a placebo when the treatment is sticking needles into your body. In fact, one term I've seen applied to it is that it is a "theatrical placebo".

When you read the underlying "logic" behind how acupuncture is supposed to work, it is obvious that it is a scam. "Qi" and "meridians"? Really? :rolleyes:

I tried it when I was 40, years of throwing a baseball had taken a toll on my left shoulder. I had constant pain and decreased range of motion. Went in and had a session and My shoulder was 100 % better. I came home and told my wife she had to try it, she said what the hell, why not.
She went in and had a session done. She came home and was unimpressed. During the assesment the practitioner asked her if there was anything else she could help with. Offhandedly my wife said, “ Yeah, I have been through 2 cycles of in vitro and neither worked. I would love to get pregnant” practitioner said sure I can help with that. We were pregnant thirty days later.
We had tried for fifteen years with no success, 2 tries with in vitro and all the mental stress that comes with it. We had given up. My daughter just turned sixteen, we are going out looking at cars today.
I believe.

Well, I have had it done and yes, most of the issues were fixed by it, even one that I didn't know that he was treating at one session, and he knew about it, I just thought he would do it after working on a few other issues. When you did extreme sports like I did, for as long as I did, you will have pains.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614362424.jpg
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Check out the videos.
https://youtu.be/IF-osxObEIA

https://youtu.be/pUzJpkk40QI

Done it first time on our cruise ship down the Yangtze River. I have flat feet so they will always hurt after long hours of walking or standing. It took the pain away for about 6-8 days after even with lots of walking for the rest of the trip. I suppose it worked but have not tried since.

True story here but a quack fixed my plantarfasciitis. The pain will not go away after two months of pain pills and my foot doc told me to not walk for three weeks and it will go away. Well, that didn't work. I tried rolling on the tennis ball, coke bottle, brace and nothing and it was kicking my ass especially when I wake up in the morning but once I warmed up, I am ok, even rode my bike. This went on for almost two years. My friend's kid was a state level gymnast. The team goes to this quack for all their injuries and swears by him. After two years, I have nothing to lose but 65 bucks a secession. I discovered he's some kind of kung fu master and was a doctor in China. I'm thinking yeah right? I enter his dingy little office and noticed a bunch of signed pics of famous athletics thanking him as well as teams pictures of various sports. Got on the table and he told me this will hurt a bit. Oh siht, did it hurt. People heard my screams in TX. I am told that manipulations of my tendons was necessary and put them back where they belong. He stuck this freaking steel rod into my calf and back of my leg, put some nasty, smelly, black herbal medicine on my foot. Told me I need ten sessions. I did about 5 and the pain subsided by 70%. I went back for three more and I had full range of motion and no more pain even in the morning. Its been 8 years, and I am completely healed. That was money well spent, I tell ya. I am not a believer.

In-between. Seemed to work at times. Nothing other times.

But Nostril Cheese is a "medical function", not advice.. :D

It really seemed to work. I'm certainly all about science and fact. However Chinese medicine has been around a long time and I've "seen things" I cant explain from time to time. Glad it worked for you.

My wife used to go to this women about a mile from the house. Always said how great it was and I should go too.

The women moved her office across town and wife stopped going. Now she doesn't even talk about it. Odd I think but par for the course.....

If it works for you great. Magic crystals, pyramid power, cedar smoke, or meditation all can work if reall believe it. The Placebo effect is well documented. It is your money to spend as you see fit.

I'm not the guy to defend the thing I'm asking about, but I think you might be painting with a broad brush here re: "Magic crystals and meditation. Meditation is shown to have measurable effects on the brain scientifically. Not that those effects matter or that I do it either ;-)

Ascribing results purely to Placebo bothers me a bit because on the one hand I tried it expecting zero results - firmly in the "we'll see about this" doubters camp. More to not be rude to my friend who was insisting I try. On the other maybe getting pricked in many placed acts as a placebo of sorts after all, involuntarily?

All I know is my PF was better the next morning, hard to argue against that. Elbow, zero difference. 50-50. Will try again and report.

After a back injury in my prime I couldn't stand a few minutes doing dishes or waiting in a supermarket line without laying on the floor to stop the spasms. Now I like to shovel snow. I am a believer. There were also some Rolfing sessions involved.

It does take many sessions to begin to have effect, not instant. But the effects can be somewhat permanent unlike drugs. Drugs can artificially release dopamine etc and cover up pain instead of healing the source of it. The brain/nervous/circulation system is connected to every part of the body. It's a two-way street. Your body also affects your brain and mood equally. As to how it works besides the Chi thing, I believe on one level acupuncture releases tension and restores circulation. And that frees up the body to return to a normal unguarded upright natural state.

A bad neck or shoulder soon leads to leaning to one side..which leads to a bad back...which leads to a bad knee...and then a bad foot. The foot is where the pain is felt but it is not the source of the problem.

some of each Real / BS / in between

practitioner's skill level is very important

my PCP MD does it based on diagnosis; or he will use a TEMS type unit

there is a substantial body of science on it in refereed journals, so it is obviously not all BS

I suspect efficacy will be hit or miss, given the problem even with the best practitioners; there is little downside to trying it

Walked in smoking 1 1/2 packs a day, 12 years ago
1 treatment.
Last cig.
No Nicotine withdrawal...no desire to smoke

Like I said, one of my early Treatments was supposed to be for XYZ, one of the conditions was discussed, but didn't know that he was treating it. After the Treatment, the friend who recommended and took me commented and I realized that he was correct. The next treatment, I asked and the doctor said that he decided to treat it with the other ailments instead of waiting. So, if I didn't know that I was being treated, the placebo effect can't come into play. As that was one of the 1st things I thought about for the other issues. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614376737.jpg
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They have been doing it for thousands of years. If it did not work, they would have stopped.

After my SCI I was on oxycontin for a long time , about 4 years. I wanted to cut that down so I had a combination of massage , acupuncture and acupressure. The massage and acupressure were more effective for the chronic pain. Acupuncture helped alot with acute episodes.

As noted, I'm one who has personally experienced positive results. I, of course, understand the placebo effect and although I don't think that's why it helped, I will not discount the possibility.

On the other hand, two of our horses and one of our dogs, along with a number of equine and canine companions of several friends, do not share that understanding and yet they were very clearly helped.

_

I had forgotten about animals, as a friend of mine use to take his dog, with positive results, one of the reasons I gave it a shot.

The scientific literature on acupuncture (and meditation) clearly shows efficacy beyond mere placebo effect. That was controlled for in the published studies.



If this thread deteriorates tho, I have some fun woo-wwo pics I can post.

My brother smoked from his teens well into his early 50's. At his peak, he was smoking almost 3 packs a day. One treatment and never smoked again. His girlfriend had several treatments and couldn't kick the habit. I believe that the person wanting to quit is a key in the success or failure of acupuncture for smoking cessation.

I agree. From what I understand acupuncture/pressure stimulates specific nerves to alleviate pain but is not a remedy to fix the problem. It made a knee injury feel a lot better for me

I once had acupuncture from an old Japanese man who was a WW2 surgeon. A master.
His skin was flawless like a teenager. No blue veins. No liver spots. Nothing.
He moved like a young man. Better than me.

The needles used were very thin and a tube was used to guide them.
No electricity or spinning or other manipulation.

He showed me how the needles would easily bend and fail to penetrate healthy skin even with the tube.
In the places that were damaged, the needle popped right in deep.

I had acupuncture and cupping 3 or 4 years ago for a bad back injury. Both had an effect.

The physiotherapist explained that the injury from the needles (and the cupping) draws white blood cells to the injury site and this assists with the healing.

I’d actually like to get this done again for my tennis elbow.

So close minded.

Not understanding how it works does not make it BS. Was a time we thought illness was due to evil spirits. We still don't understand how gravity works, does that make it nonsense?

+1, I've never tried acupuncture but I know people with similar stories to those in this thread. The "we don't understand how it works but it works" thing is also not limited to eastern medicine... lithium for example has obvious effect but we don't know why.

Wife did it for a while, so she dragged me in for 5 sessions.
I tried it didn't do anything for me.
The 3 needles that helped my Sciatica were the epidural shots in my lower back, instant relief.
Imho any alternative medicine that gives someone in pain comfort is ok with me.
Even if it's not proven if it gives a patient hope not my place to contest it.