Why or how does a camera change the color of something

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I've been working on duplicating an extremely rare factory anodized color option for 928 wheels. Long road. Today we got something extremely close. A lot of celebration.

Took pics for the customer. The pics show two very distinct colors.

In person, both outside in daylight and under fluorescent lights, the colors are nearly identical.

How does that happen?

[herr_oberst]

You're supposed to photoshop your sample images before you send them off to the customer.

Seriously, it all comes down to color gamma. The CCD in the camera can do a pretty excellent job with color gamma these days, but for some reason the camera chip is picking up something on your refinished sample and during the conversion from RAW to your chosen colorspace it's not blending the colors the way your eye does.

And, by the way, what is the color temperature of your fluorescent lights?

https://www.gtilite.com/2015/08/the-five-keys-to-accurate-color-viewing/

[Norm K]

If I had to guess, Shaun, I'd say it has to do with the refractive properties of the respective coatings.

_

[Bill Douglas]

Yes, try with a polarizing lense if you have one.

[stomachmonkey]

A CMOS is a mechanical sensor that due to the nature of it's design can be sensitive to the angle and amount of incoming light energy.

There are 3 basic types of materials, diffuse reflective, retro reflective, specular.

They will affect how light energy is dispersed back to the sensor.

Diffuse reflective will scatter / disperse some of the light energy hitting it so less energy hits the sensor than hits the object, think concrete.

Retro reflective will concentrate and amplify energy directly back, think reflective road paint or road signs.

Specular, tends to redirect concentrated light energy, think laser hitting mirror.

So it is entirely possible to have two identically colored but different materials return different results.

It's not the color, it's the material properties of the two different coatings that are effecting what the sensor can interpolate. One may be rougher / smoother than the other.

[pmax]

[pmax]

[LWJ]

I may know.

Eye ball visuals show virtually the same.

I worked for a company that did huge volume of anodizing. It was NOT my expertise.

But, some of the variables (as you know) are dye, crystalline structure of the anodic built up, any clear coating.

I think that you have visually duplicated with a slightly different process. Hence, the discrepancy between eyes and photos.

Cool, BTW.

[GH85Carrera]

We used to fight the same issue in the olden days of film. Some dyes and pigments just reflect the color spectrum differently to a piece of film or in your case the camera sensor. Modern digital sensors are amazing, but they still "see" in a different spectrum than your eyes. Sensors see more into the UV spectrum than the human eyes.

We had one very famous western artist come in with a fantastic portrait of a horse. The owners wanted to have posters made to use in advertising and promotional ways. I would set up the lights, photograph the original oil painting with careful color balance lighting on 8x10 transparency film, and go process it. One hour later we would all agree everything was perfect, except the nose was too green. If I added magenta to the filter stack the entire piece was magenta, except the nose. Finally the artist came in with his paints, repainted the nose of the horse to a more magenta color he hate. The new transparency was perfect. He painter the nose back like he wanted, and everyone was happy.

If you want the wheels to match, try a couple of different cameras just to see the difference. Then use Photoshop to adjust the colors to match.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Thank you Gentlemen! I will take pics with a Nikon D7200 and see how they turn out as well as a Canon G9X and compare. Then photoshop as needed. Good news is the shop doing the car, an incredible 6.2L supercar build, is local so they can see the tests in person. Still would be nice to post in 928 forums, etc. so PS may be in order.

Pics were taken with an iphone which has produced good accurate shots in the past.

[herr_oberst]

Welcome to the world of color reproduction and proofing.

Think carefully about photoshopping your proof images - how do you argue your case when a client isn't happy with the ultimate results and the only fallback you have is an image that you've digitally color corrected?

The camera sees what it sees, and your best bet is to find lighting that your eyes and the camera both agree on.
I wouldn't be surprised that if you were to place the wheel and the sample in 5000K ISO 3664:2009 compliant lighting that you would be seeing the same color variant that the camera is picking up. Using the industry standard light spectrum means your color adjustments become direct comparisons.

Matching color is difficult, and unfortunately subjective. Your best bet is to always lock down as many variables as you can so you compare apples to apples.

[mjohnson]

I blame auto white balance. If you're taking a sequence of images, or want to compare things, pick a setting (sun/cloud/whatever). When I dumbly leave things on auto it's super annoying how the tone shifts a little from image to image.

Or throw a grey card in the corner of the image to guide post-processing.

[Scott Douglas]

I'll post three pictures here.
They show how a digital camera (all of them) tries to make everything grey. At first I didn't believe this, but after taking the pictures I can see it's pretty much true.







Try it yourself Shaun. Fill the view finder completely with a black, then a white piece and see what your camera does with the image. Don't change any settings between shots.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

Welcome to the world of color reproduction and proofing.

Think carefully about photoshopping your proof images - how do you argue your case when a client isn't happy with the ultimate results and the only fallback you have is an image that you've digitally color corrected?

The camera sees what it sees, and your best bet is to find lighting that your eyes and the camera both agree on.
I wouldn't be surprised that if you were to place the wheel and the sample in 5000K ISO 3664:2009 compliant lighting that you would be seeing the same color variant that the camera is picking up. Using the industry standard light spectrum means your color adjustments become direct comparisons.

Matching color is difficult, and unfortunately subjective. Your best bet is to always lock down as many variables as you can so you compare apples to apples.

Oh, if I were to Photoshop these pics, I would let the customer know with both raw and then PS'd. "How they look in pics and how they look actually."

I've never had a client unhappy with my results. That is actually the raison d'être of Tru6. And I actually spend my own time making something perfect vs. billing the customer. It's only right.

And on these, I couldn't have a disappointed customer because the color matches in real life. The kids say IRL i've heard.

But yes, matching color is difficult!

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Scott Douglas

I'll post three pictures here.
They show how a digital camera (all of them) tries to make everything grey. At first I didn't believe this, but after taking the pictures I can see it's pretty much true.







Try it yourself Shaun. Fill the view finder completely with a black, then a white piece and see what your camera does with the image. Don't change any settings between shots.

I will try that Scott, thank you!

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I was at the anodizer this morning dropping off some window frames and we looked at the original wheel and the test piece again inside and outside. They are so close. I am going to call the dye company and ask them how to get a touch more gold into the color. You can't mix colors in anodizing without adding buffers and adjusting pH, etc., and we've already spent a ton of time getting this far, but I'm hoping they'll say to add "5% of this to add a tiny bit of gold." Really I should just leave it as is but those last few feet in the last mile are where the fun is.

[Tobra]

Never forget the opposite of pretty good is perfect

[RWebb]

does the D7200 have a choice of modes to alter the color? lower level (amateur) Nikons do but they considered the 7200 a pro body so it might not have that

another easy way to do this is to change the light source or use a filter on the lens

otherwise you need to do it in post with Pshop or Lightroom or whatever

and... the monitor used will affect how the colors come out so yours may differ from the customers

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

A CMOS is a mechanical sensor that due to the nature of it's design can be sensitive to the angle and amount of incoming light energy.

There are 3 basic types of materials, diffuse reflective, retro reflective, specular.

They will affect how light energy is dispersed back to the sensor.

Diffuse reflective will scatter / disperse some of the light energy hitting it so less energy hits the sensor than hits the object, think concrete.

Retro reflective will concentrate and amplify energy directly back, think reflective road paint or road signs.

Specular, tends to redirect concentrated light energy, think laser hitting mirror.

So it is entirely possible to have two identically colored but different materials return different results.

It's not the color, it's the material properties of the two different coatings that are effecting what the sensor can interpolate. One may be rougher / smoother than the other.

That's really impressive for a WAG that you pulled out of thin air.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by RWebb

does the D7200 have a choice of modes to alter the color? lower level (amateur) Nikons do but they considered the 7200 a pro body so it might not have that

another easy way to do this is to change the light source or use a filter on the lens

otherwise you need to do it in post with Pshop or Lightroom or whatever

and... the monitor used will affect how the colors come out so yours may differ from the customers

Sadly and much to my chagrin, I have not learned how to use the camera. Have another tech coming in for a test on Monday, with 2 I might have time to actually learn how to use it properly.