Let's Talk About Lever Spoons
 

In a nearby thread several folks mentioned an interest in this or that lever gun. Coincidentally, inexplicably, I had been thinking I need a lever gun. I probably need this as much as I need an F-16 but I already have one of those and so my interest in lever guns remains.

I know there are various models from which to choose and it looks like some good machines are available these days. I also notice they can come chambered for a variety of cartridges. I just want to know more about these guns and get some advice or recommendations. In my ignorance, I am imagining a .45 Cold chambering so that my New Vaquero could use at least some of the cartridges which the lever gun could use. I think the lever gun could handle some rounds which the Vaquero cannot. And I wonder about muzzle velocity. Some of those hotter .45 Colt loads are +P or even perhaps +P+ with 300-325 gr bullets and I just wonder if this gives the rifle some good range and power. Not for elephants and whales but perhaps for deer and elk.

School me up.

Waitin' fer Higgy....

In the meantime.... what "range" are you talking about.... with open sights?

'Cause Higgins would have to shave your hairy palms otherwise....

Any would suffice out to say 100+ yds .... even .357 mag ... or other handspoon rounds.

.Thuddy-thuddy .... classic lever deer rifle.... my first purchase 4 decades ago.

And now we wait ;)....

My apologies, Paul. Post has been edited. It was meant tongue-in-cheek but I think you are right about discretion.

And....I think I used to be worse, actually. I got taken to the woodshed about a year ago and I deserved it.

KC, I think the 'range' question is moot, since this thing will not have a scope. With iron sights, I can't shoot accurately past about 600 yards. That too was meant as a joke.

I've got a Winchester 92 and a Henry, both in 30-30. I like the Winchester over the Henry due to the fact the Henry is "tube loaded" and the Winchester you can load from the side (like you see in the cowboy movies when they're laying behind a boulder).

Now, I did have a Browning B-92 in 357 which I kick myself in the butt for selling. Not manufactured anymore (they made 357 and 44 Mag) but it was a sweet rifle. Sometimes tough to find but they do show up on Gunbroker now and then. Rossi also makes a 357.

I did see one of these for sale recently, hadn't heard of them before but they seem pretty slick...

https://taylorsfirearms.com/long-guns/cartridge-rifles/1892-alaskan.html

Why a lever gun when you can use a matchlock?

45LC using standard factory ammo (so SAA-safe just about) out of a 16" carbine barrel will lay the thump on piggies and deer, etc. within 50-100 yards IF you can hit the vitals.

Looks like you can get a minor to near 50% boost in speed depending on load and barrel length -

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45colt.html


The big heavy loads may or may not be OK for your lever spoon - depends on which make, when made, etc. Just like on the revolvers. Even if it isn't a pressure issue with the big 300grn stuff the load could be too long to function through the feed system.

I've also been looking (am considering .357 mag) but still haven't bought anything yet.

Henry is now making rifles with side-loading gates.

Some previous threads on lever-action rifles:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/478234-more-lever-guns.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/979262-lever-action-folks.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1067741-lever-hand-spoon-questions-opinions.html

And I think you have to type his name three times before he shows up to provide sage advice...Higgins...Higgins...Higgins... :)

My opinion - A side-gate lever action rifle is much easier to reload while walking around...

Thank you for the links. I should have done my research. Professor Higgins has almost certainly already provided the info. I am reading now.

I have a Henry Golden Boy in .22lr ... tube loader is fine for that ... a no-go (for me) in larger calibers also. Still a VERY nice spoon. My Marlins (.30-30 &
.357) are side loaders... can't beat 'em :). The newer one isn't built like the one 4 decades old.... but what is these daze :D?

Melikes 'em all ....

Oddly enough my 10 year old whom I shoot with often has told me that he wants a Henry lever action for his birthday. Who am I to argue?

At a gun auction I handled a couple of Miroku lever guns. Beautifully made and the action was a smooth as silk.

New or used?

My son bought a Marlin 1894 in 30-30, a wonderful rifle. He hunts with it and I put maybe 5 rounds through it a year.

I have a Marlin 39 Carbine in .22, a fairly rare little gun that was given to me by my grandfather when I was 12.

If you are not planning on hunting with the lever action, a Marlin 39A is a hoot.

This one has side gate AND a tube

https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/big-boy-all-weather-side-gate/

https://www.henryusa.com/
[drop the mic]

My ears were burning...

Yeah, I played with those crude, clanky, rickety, inaccurate, outdated old things for a little while and just got sick and tired of them. Underpowered, inaccurate, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if you were standing inside of it. Finally gave up and sold 'em all and bought a bunch of these new fangled black plastic rifles. The kinds that use batteries to power them into the 21st century and beyond.

But, well, I did learn a few things during all of those sad, misguided years I was playing with that rusty old junk. I guess I could share some of it, in the hopes that no one else has to suffer as I did.

So, pistol caliber lever guns? About as old as, well, lever guns - the very first ones were essentially "pistol calibers". The old .44 Henry rimfire, then the .44-40 WCF (Winchester Center Fire), then the .38-40, .32-20, etc. - all started out as "rifle" rounds, but were so darn short that they were easily chambered in revolvers as well. The Colt Peacemaker was the first, best known, and most common. They even stamped "Frontier Six Shooter" on the barrels of the .44-40's to emphasize that use - out on the "frontier", where ammunition commonality between rifle and pistol were a really big selling point.

Interestingly, the .45 Colt was never offered in a lever gun until fairly recently, like the end of the 20th century. There was a reason for that - the rim was too darn small on the original ammunition to allow it to extract reliably in a lever gun. The rim was subsequently enlarged, to where it is now the same size as that on the .44 magnum, so now it functions reliably through lever guns. And just about every pistol caliber lever gun made today is available in .45 Colt. My current example (that I'm still suffering with) is one of the first gen (1990's) Marlin Cowboy examples with a 24" barrel and full length magazine (that holds 13):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1615073100.jpg

This is a wonderfully accurate rifle that will handle any .45 Colt load, including my heaviest 300 grain "Ruger only" handloads. My Ruger single actions will get about 1,250 fps with them, and this rifle will approach 1,500. It is absolutely viable as a 150 yard-ish deer or hog rifle. I did have to modify the cartridge lifting ramp to accept my longer than SAAMI spec 300 grain load, but that was pretty easily accomplished. But, you know, even with SAAMI spec, "Colt safe" loads (250 to 270 grain bullets at 900 fps from a revolver), it will still hit 1,200 fps and remains entirely useful as that 150 yard-ish hunting rifle.

Unfortunately, like everything else "firearms" these days, I bet it's almost impossible to find a rifle like this. Lots of manufacturers make similar lever guns - Winchester Model 92, various Henrys, Uberti Model 73's and '92's, etc. Out of all of those, the Marlin 1894 in its various guises remains my favorite, followed by the Winchester Model 92. My only recommendation would be to stay away from the Model 73 - it has a notoriously weak toggle link style lockup and is not suitable for heavy loads. Other than that, find one, if you can - you'll learn to hate them as much as I do...

What about the Henry vs the Winnie 92?

I have no personal experience with anything made by Henry, so I will defer to those who do. They do get outstanding reviews from people within the industry whom I respect, and I have heard nothing but good things about them. I am not familiar with all of their models and variations. I understand some must be loaded through the front of the magazine tube, lacking a side loading gate, but I'm not sure which ones those might be, whether they are "pistol" or "rifle" caliber actions, or both. I very, very much prefer a side loading gate, so perhaps that's why they have not garnered my interest in the past. They are making a big deal about their newer rifles that do feature that side loading gate, so I think they understand how important it is to many of us.

I think my biggest "objection" (if I can even call it that) to the Henry is that it appears a blatant rip-off of the Marlin design. At least by all appearances it appears that way. Maybe there are internal differences - I don't know. I just don't like rewarding that kind of behavior, assuming that is what they really are. I know many don't feel that way, and Henry sure sells a lot of rifles, and they get good reviews.

Hm. Here is what I think I want:

Old west style. Shorter barrel.

Side loading and perhaps side discharge. I think this means there will be two windows on the right side of the gun above the front of the lever. The lower gate is for loading. AFAIK.

Side discharge is less important to me than side loading.

Ability to handle any .45 Colt round I want. Dr. Higgins said in an earlier thread that most of these guns will not gracefully handle the bigger .45 Cold loads. Not enough bullet spin, i think. A Japanese maker of Winchester made one that could manage these, but I wonder if this simply cannot be accomplished with the shorter barrel.

FWIW, where I come from these old lever action rifles were usually chambered in 30-30. For deer hunting in closed quarters. I suppose that is a thought, but the idea of a pistol and a long gun using the same round is delightful.....if it can do the same thing. Shoot a deer at 150 yards or so.

If you want a loading gate on the side of the action and side ejection, I believe that limits you to the Model 1894 Marlin. Not that that is any kind of a "limitation" - IMHO, the best pistol caliber lever gun ever made.

And yes, rifling twist rate can be an issue. Back when this idea was still new (1870's), these rounds fired very light for caliber bullets that were very short in length. Darn near round balls, really. The .44-40, for example, fired a 200 grain bullet, which is exceedingly light for a .44 caliber projectile. And it was very soft, pure lead. So the idea was that we really did not have to spin it very fast to stabilize it, and we were likewise afraid of "stripping" the rifling, or skipping right over it because the soft bullet failed to grip that rifling. So twist rates were on the order of one turn in 38 inches. Think about that for a moment - modern AR 15's meant to shoot heavy for caliber bullets routinely go with one in 7 inch twists. The longer the bullet, the faster we must spin it to stabilize it.

So, essentially, this 1:38" twist is pretty much "obsolete" in today's terms. If we want to shoot heavier bullets, we need a much faster twist. Today's "standard" for .44 magnum is 240 grains. .45 Colt has always been about 255 grains. And, unfortunately, traditions die hard in this firearms world. So even though there is really no "traditional" twist rate for .45 Colt lever guns (since we did not have them until late in the 20th century), for whatever reason, manufacturers have held to the traditional 1:38" rate held over from the .44-40.

Until now... Miroku, the Japanese licensee manufacturing Winchester lever guns, has corrected this problem and has gone with a 1:22" twist. But, unfortunately, only in the .44 (and .357) magnum. Their .45 Colt Model 92's still have the slower twist. Which isn't the end of the world, really - they still shoot standard bullet weights in the .45 Colt quite well. They may not stabilize the 300 grain and heavier stuff but, well, that won't be an issue for you and your Vaquero.

You see, your "New Model" Vaquero is about the same size, and strength, as the old Colt Peacemaker. It is much smaller than, and not as strong as, the Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk. The first gen Vaqueros were built on those larger frames, and the Coboy Action crowd hated them, soon convincing Ruger to "downsize" it to its present size. As a result, you don't get to shoot those monster 300 grain and heavier loads out of your Vaquero anyway. So if you want ammo commonality, and you want to shoot the same loads out of the lever gun that your revolver can shoot, you need to stick with "Colt safe" loads anyway. In both. Which, like I said, is just fine anyway. A "standard" .45 Colt load is all we really need for anything a sixgun should ever be asked to do, and it only gets better in a rifle.

So, don't worry about the "strength" of either firearm, don't worry about the twist rate - just shoot standard velocity, standard weight .45 Colt loads in both and live happily ever after. Both firearms will serve you quite well.

That's who made the Browning B-92.

I would not go big game hunting with a handgun caliber in a rifle. It will always be a compromise compared to a rifle caliber. If 30-30 is too 'modern'. go with a 45-70 instead. Guys like Jeff may be able to do well with excellent shot placement and picking the perfect loads or factory ammo, but the average guy will benefit from a flatter shooting harder hitting rifle cartridge out of a rifle.

G

Ballistics by the inch basically shows that in .357 and .44 Magnum, by the time you get to 16 inches, the velocity is maxed out. This may not be true for Jeff's handloads, using powder designed for longer barrels. But factory ammo, I think you'll find that past 16" the pistol stuff doesn't fly faster.

That said, I really want an 1894 Marlin 16" in .357 Magnum. That is just about unobtanium right now. My next choice is The Rossi 16" with standard lever, preferably in stainless. But I also really like the Winchester breakdown which would fit my Bug Out Bag better.

With infinite money, I would also like a .44 magnum S&W plus a .44 Magnum lever gun. But then I'd have to stock ANOTHER caliber of ammo.

BTW, I love my Winchester 1894 in 30-30. It was well loved by the previous owner. It is a post WWII that I believe we finally figured out was a 1947 build.

"A man has got to know his limitations..."

Making a conscious decision to handicap one's self with regards to hunting method, be it bow hunting, muzzle loader hunting, handgun hunting, or something similar is a pretty serious decision to make. The use of a pistol caliber lever gun may not be as extreme as, say, bow hunting, but it still represents a pretty serious limitation compared to more powerful, higher velocity, flatter shooting rifle calibers. If one isn't willing or able to make a commitment to practice, and a commitment to pass up an awful lot of opportunities that are beyond the capabilities of the weapon of choice, then one has no business hunting with these kinds of arms.

I grew up hunting with modern, bolt action, scoped rifles. It soon got to be "too easy", and I was looking for greater challenges. I found what I was looking for initially with muzzle loaders, taking advantage of the special seasons offered for their use. It was a relatively easy commitment to make, since my state, at the time, allowed us to hunt all of our deer and elk seasons (bow, muzzle loader, and modern firearm), so long as we used the proper weapon. If I didn't get anything with the muzzle loader, I could just head out for the modern rifle season and have another chance. Then, for whatever reason, some 30-odd years ago they switched to making us choose just one method and season for any given year. And they dramatically shortened muzzle loading seasons while cutting the number of open units in half as well. All of it just rendered our short, scattered muzzle loading seasons rather less than appealing. They kind of forced my hand...

So it was back to the modern firearms seasons. I could still use the muzzle loader during those seasons, but now I was looking for something different again. Enter the big bore revolver. Now here was a real challenge... The amount of work involved in getting proficient enough to be confident hunting with one proved to be far, far more than I ever could have imagined. Fortunately for me, I had a rather stern mentor who would not "allow" me to go hunting with my revolver until he was satisfied with my proficiency.

I understand the limitations imposed by the choices I have made. Hell, I went looking for those limitations. I wanted them. I welcomed them. I kind of have to think that unless one is going in with that kind of an attitude, one is better off using the most effective weapon possible. Make no mistake, a pistol caliber lever gun can be very effective - certainly more effective than my revolvers - but one has to understand, and work within, its limitations.

If you decide I would really recommend a peep or rear aperture sight. Our daughter has one on her Marlin 30-30 and in the woods it is great. She was out of state last season and our 11 year old son borrowed it, with her permission of course. He was able to acquire the target easy as well but we only saw some doe in the brush at 60 yards so no clear shot and some at 275 yards and they would not come closer.

Plus, they look good on a lever action.

This reminded me, I have a tang sight for a Savage 99 (which is another nice lever gun) which I was going to put on Gunbroker but will sell for a good price if any Pelican is interested.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1615308856.jpg

Yes, definitely - peep sights are a vast improvement on these rifles over their issue open sights. They can be a little "dark" for use during twilight hours in the woods, but most of them have apertures that are easily removed, turning them into erstwhile "ghost ring" sights that let an awful lot of light through them. I find that within normal, "ethical" hunting ranges, peep sights are every bit as easy to use as any scope. And, boy, they sure make the rifle a whole lot handier and easier to carry. And they never fog up - a big issue up here in the "Pacific North Wet".

Early 1950's manufacture Savage 99 in .300 Savage with an original Marble's "Game Getter" rear sight. Essentially a lever action .308, a wonderful, entirely viable 200+ yard deer rifle:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1615309511.jpg

Winchester Model 71 in .348 Winchester sporting a Williams peep. I like these because they feature quarter minute click adjustments:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1615309511.jpg

One of the newer manufacturers, Skinner, as shown on a Ruger #1 in .375 H&H Magnum. These are a little less precise in their adjustments, but are one tough little sight:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1615309511.jpg

My daughter fell on the ice with her Skinners and the front blade bent but the rear is still solid. Andy is a good guy there.

I have never used anything but 30-06 for big game hunting, but I have also not taken many shots outside the range of peep sights and I think the .45 Colt cartridge is enough to get the job done. I recall Dr. Higgins saying this round will go through a deer lengthwise.

When my grandfather passed, he had a single-shot 30-06 with no scope, for big game hunting. According to legend, he had never needed more than one shot to kill a deer or elk. He killed a lot of them. Based on my knowledge of him and my father and his brothers, this story is believable.

30-06 is a good round, been around forever. 30-30 has taken a lot of deer as well as I am sure .45 Cold has.

I have a S&W in .45 Colt I carry in the thick woods and briars so I don't have to worry about where the rifle is pointing. A long shot in those areas would be less than 20 yards though.

My daughter's first deer was with the 30-30 with Skinner peeps and 165 yards, with a monopod in a ground stand, shortly after her leg was on fire.

Gunbroker has a few .357 levers but good golly the prices are waaaay high!

Everything is "WAY HIGH."

If a civil war breaks out, I might go to Jeff's house. His spoon collection boggles my tiny brain. I just hope he doesn't shoot me.

Don't worry Supe, I have no kryptonite bullets. Just plain old lead wheel weights. They would probably have a hard time getting through a carbon fiber cape...

It would still hurt like a, well, it would hurt a lot.

I use to go squirrel hunting with my dad and uncles. Lever actions using 22 shorts were the preferred method. The 9422 was my dads. I bought him the .17 but he never went hunting with it. We put the cheap scope on and sighted it in, he never shot it again. Unfortunately he is in assisted living these days.

Finally got this fish in the boat after three weeks waiting and....seriously.....two and a half hours of paperwork and firearm safety course. As a simple boy from Idaho, I just have a hard time understanding some things.

The build quality is just as high as they say. Excellent fit and finish, smooth action....beyond expectations. Bluing is like nothing I have ever seen. Not blotchy like the rest. Those bright-metal rectangles atop the receiver thingie are pins. Apparently the action on this thing is designed to not fail. There never was a weak point in these 1892s but if there were, it has been fixed. Here she is cleaned, oiled and ready for range time. Can't wait.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1708123800.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1708123800.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1708123800.jpg

Chambered in .45 Colt.

Very nice! Brand new? Or gently used?

I'm still looking for a .357...