Found out 2 cars sold to me had undisclosed damage

[umfan866]

Hi,

After selling my 87 911 Porsche & 2016 Honda Civic, we moved back to Canada and in late 2018 / early 2019, we bought 2 cars, a 2016 CRV and a 2016 Civic from a Honda dealer (both automatic). Because my son's now reached driving age, and wished I still had the Porsche, we are investigating trading in 1 or more of the cars to get something exciting, or at the vary least, a manual version of my Civic. We were looking into Porsches (that's a different thread) but a modified 2016 BRZ caught our fancy. The used car dealer said OK bring both your cars in for eval, maybe you could trade them BOTH in for this 1 car. So we took them in. My Civic has had bodywork on the front bumper due to someone taking off my front bumper as she sped out of the parking lot (I was not in the car at the time)- and I reported it to the police - and I mentally prepared myself that I will take a hit on the residual value of it - even though it was not my fault (I wasn't even there). On the CRV I backed into a van that was parked in front of our driveway, and it broke the taillight and created a minor dent - I replaced the taillight but did not submit a claim. So the CRV carfax is clean, but the civic has an accident reported on it (they said 3.6k of damage even though the repairs cost 1.7k, but whatever).

Ok so it turns out the guy evaluating them seems to know a LOT about cars (he sells high end Ferarri's). He looks at both cars and says - did you realize that both cars have additional body work done to them? He shows that the back bumper on the CRV has been replaced before and shows me the bad paint job and orange peel. Then on the Civic, he shows me the front work was shoddy, and on the back bumper, he shows me that it has also been re-done before (I forgot the exact details).

I am really upset that the 2 pre-owned cars I bought from a Honda dealer might have had work done to them that was not disclosed to me, nor was it on the carfax at the time- both were clean. I probably overpaid on each car by 1k. The trade-in value of both cars is now 1/2 of what I paid for each 2.5 years ago, per the guy doing the evaluation. What is not good is that the salesman we used at Honda is someone my dad trusted, that's why we went to him. To be fair, he deals 90% in new cars, but because we knew him, he handled the sale on these 2 used cars. I like this guy we dealt with at Honda, but I am not sure I trust the dealership (they ripped us off to the tune of $300 during one of our civic maintenance visits).

I want to tell the Honda salesman that he apparently sold me 2 cars with undisclosed body work done. First of all, is that legal? I can't remember if these cars were "certified pre-owned" but I would have thought that they would have been gone over thoroughly. I was thinking of telling him this, and maybe asking for some sort of incredible deal.

It just so happens that he has a manual/stickshift version of my Civic that just came in, and I may be able to do an even trade (it has 40k more miles, but my car has the prior accident to the front bumper). I am going to see it today. (In canada if you trade a car in and get a new one, you only pay tax on the difference, which is huge).

Here is my dilemna - if I tell him that I became aware that there was bodywork done on my car that the dealership did not disclose, he is then going to be aware of that additional damage, and it will further devalue my car, and I may not be able to do an even trade. On the other hand, if they evaluate the car, maybe they won't find the replaced bumper on the rear, and so won't ding me for it. Or they may not say anything (if they remember the car or have on file that they sold it with prior bodywork done). However, if they identify the rear bumper as having had work, then the sales guy will ask me what happened, and think I might have done the work on that, not them, and/or it will look odd that I am bringing up about this rear bumper only AFTER they identify it.

Another option is to just do nothing, or tell him about the issues with the cars and ask for something in return - maybe a better deal on a newer SUV for my wife, not sure.

I really hate fact that some car dealers are shady and that garages / dealerships do / or have these shenanigans go on. The more I look, the more cynical I am getting - like thinking that all Carfaxes are bogus, and maybe I need to get an independent PPI on EVERY car I buy- from someone who knows not just mechanicals but paint - even if it is from a dealership! Thanks for your thoughts / advice.

[masraum]

Reporting to Carfax isn't any sort of requirement for anyone, so never assume that what you get from Carfax is accurate.

I would not expect someone selling something to me to voluntarily offer information to me unless I specifically ask for it or they are required by law. If you didn't specifically ask, then it's probably on you. I don't think a seller is required to advise you of prior damage voluntarily. If you ask them about it, and they know, then they have to tell you. But then you probably have to have some sort of proof that they knew and it didn't happen with a previous owner and they hadn't checked (presumably, they have).

If you have a car at the same dealer where you got these two that you want, I wouldn't feel bad for trading one or both of the cars back into the dealership. If they ask you about damage, then you'd have to say, but I can't imagine that they would ask about damage (why would they trust a customer).

If you do try to trade them in, and they find damage that isn't the result of anything that you did, then I'd be shocked and say "but you sold me this car, I had no idea."

I wouldn't bother to tell the salesman, but then again, I've never had a relationship with a car salesman.

If I was selling the car, I would happily tell folks if they asked. If they didn't ask, I'm not sure that I'd offer the information.

[Scott Douglas]

This sounds so familiar to me.
Before our daughter got married, she was working in San Diego and commuting to work @25 miles one way. The company moved and her commute became 35 miles one way. She came home one weekend saying she wanted a newer car for said commute. At the time she was driving a 2010 Civic coupe that we'd found for her, CPO from a local dealer here in the OC.
When she said she wanted a new car she started looking at Accords at a San Diego dealer.
Long story short, we ended up buying two cars from them that day, an Accord for my daughter and a CR-V for my wife. As we're filling out the paperwork/doing the deal for the CR-V (we'd already purchased the Accord) they came back and asked if we'd ever had an accident with the Civic. We hadn't, but, the car inspection they did showed it to have enough damage that they couldn't even put it on their lot, they'd have to wholesale it at auction. Since the paperwork was already done they had no recourse on that deal. No one to blame but themselves either as the car had been in their shop prior to the deal being done for an oil change. So they had had plenty of time to look it over then. I explained that they didn't have a problem with me, they should be complaining to the guy that sold it to us as a CPO car.
Yes, you have to do your own due diligence IMO, even at a trusted dealership. Sad as that may be.

[908/930]

Keep in mind there is a good chance that the dealer did not know about the damage, the previous owner could have just repaired and traded it in.

[pwd72s]

Not just used cars. New cars damaged while in transit are often repaired but still sold as a new car. What's crazy is that this is 100% legal in many states.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Not just used cars. New cars damaged while in transit are often repaired but still sold as a new car. What's crazy is that this is 100% legal in many states.

My understanding is that pretty much every new car has had some sort of damage fixed, whether it was just paint or dents or more, I'm not sure since I've never worked in that industry. But how could they not get built, then moved to a boat, then loaded on the boat, then unloaded then moved on and off of trucks and moved all over the country without some damage.

The only time I might expect something to arrive perfect was if I was buying a Bugatti, limited edition/special McLaren (not just any ol' McLaren), Pagani, etc...

[1990C4S]

You have zero leverage. You had some leverage a week after you bought the car, but now? You have nothing.

The Honda dealer can claim they never saw the damage, they can claim that you did the repair after you bought the car, etc etc. They aren't going to give you a 'great deal' to make this go away. For them there is 'nothing' to deal with, something happened a few years ago, and they won't be liable for it.

Take the cars for trade-in and let them evaluate both. If they notice the damage and devalue the car, you can argue, but you won't win.

Assess their offer and move to another dealer if you don't like what give you.

I am NOT a Honda driver, but I've purchased five Honda's from Halton Honda in the last three years. All five were exactly what the dealer told me they were.

PM me if you want a contact there.

[nota]

trusted dealership

LOL LOL

there ain't such a thing

[porsche tech]

Why are you buying again from the same dealer that was less than honest the last time?

[greglepore]

Aside from trade in value, I've never cared about properly repaired damage, but then again I never trade a car in for anything. Why give it away for wholesale... .

[onewhippedpuppy]

People need to stop thinking that dealerships do comprehensive inspections or buy cars with a higher pedigree. When I had a dealership I watched dealerships like Carmax that brag about their comprehensive inspections buy cars that had disclosed or obvious damage. Along with about every new car dealer on the planet. Used cars some from two sources, auctions and trade ins. Neither is very well vetted or inspected because at the end of the day they don’t care, the customer doesn’t know any better, and used cars are purchased as-is. Some (not all) high line CPO programs have some recourse if you find undisclosed issues, but doubtful if it compensates for the CPO premium charged. Carfax is very spotty in coverage because disclosure is voluntary and varies greatly between shops, insurance companies, and states. Long story short, the only real CYA is to pay for a comprehensive PPI to be done by an independent and qualified shop or inspector. But at the end of the day it’s worth asking - for a used Honda Civic does it really matter THAT much?

[masraum]

The first couple/few times that I went to CarMax, every car that I looked at seemed to be in great shape. If they'd had repairs done, they were very well done. I've since run across several vehicles that I would not buy.

As you've said, buying a car from anywhere from anyone means that you've gotta do the due diligence yourself, not assume that the seller is going to volunteer all of their dirty laundry (especially since they may not know it all) to you.

I don't think anyone has to tell you anything. If you ask and they know, then I think they have to answer you truthfully. Even then, it wouldn't at all surprise me if most still lie figuring that 99% of the time, that won't come back to bite them in the ass. Any other time, you probably have to prove that they knew which I'm guessing would be just about impossible.

Any time that I buy any car, I check the car out the same regardless of who's selling it.

[wdfifteen]

"The used car dealer said OK bring both your cars in for eval, maybe you could trade them BOTH in for this 1 car. ... .

"Ok so it turns out the guy evaluating them seems to know a LOT about cars (he sells high end Ferarri's). He looks at both cars and says - did you realize that both cars have additional body work done to them? He shows that the back bumper on the CRV has been replaced before and shows me the bad paint job and orange peel. Then on the Civic, he shows me the front work was shoddy, and on the back bumper, he shows me that it has also been re-done before (I forgot the exact details)"

The same company that wants to buy your cars is finding reasons to downgrade their value?
Who would have thought they would stoop to this?
It doesn't matter how much the evaluator knows about cars (Ferraris or whatever). What is important it who he works for - and it's not you.

[MBAtarga]

That same guy trying to low ball you on buying your cars would be up-selling that same car to a buyer. "After a few years - all cars have had paint work" - "It's a Honda - not a Ferrari!" "It's great reliable transportation so you'll never have to worry about it breaking down."

[gprsh924]

Used car prices at historic levels. There is no way that a used Honda depreciated 50% in 2 years. They probably won’t even retail your trade, they will just send it to auction. Sell your cars privately. Properly repaired bodywork isn’t an issue.

[Brian 162]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

People need to stop thinking that dealerships do comprehensive inspections or buy cars with a higher pedigree. When I had a dealership I watched dealerships like Carmax that brag about their comprehensive inspections buy cars that had disclosed or obvious damage. Along with about every new car dealer on the planet. Used cars some from two sources, auctions and trade ins. Neither is very well vetted or inspected because at the end of the day they don’t care, the customer doesn’t know any better, and used cars are purchased as-is. Some (not all) high line CPO programs have some recourse if you find undisclosed issues, but doubtful if it compensates for the CPO premium charged. Carfax is very spotty in coverage because disclosure is voluntary and varies greatly between shops, insurance companies, and states. Long story short, the only real CYA is to pay for a comprehensive PPI to be done by an independent and qualified shop or inspector. But at the end of the day it’s worth asking - for a used Honda Civic does it really matter THAT much?

Your bang on.
I purchased a 2017 CPO Tahoe last month. I'm really happy with it except for one thing.
The CPO inspection form listed everything that was replaced or o/k. Under rear body fascia the page was blank with a mechanics signature at the bottom.
There were 2 holes in the fascia. I never looked closely so it was partially my fault for not noticing. I contacted the sales guy a few days after the purchase. He knew about it and told me to patch the hole with silicone.
Long story short I contacted the president of the dealership. They cut me a cheque for $250.
The repair cost me $800.
At least it covered some of the damage.

[A930Rocket]

In North Carolina, it used to be that any damage over 25% of the value of the car had to be reported to the next buyer. I bought a VW bug from an individual, that looked perfect. Because the seller had bought multiple vehicles from the dealer, he asked them to make the transaction. When I went to the dealership to transfer everything over, they mentioned the damage and I canceled the transaction right then and there. The dealer called the owner right away and said give me my money back. He barked and with a lawyer‘s help, he ended up giving me my money back, plus an extra $5k.

I was at a jeep dealership one time and they had a jeep on the showroom floor that had terrible paint work done. This was a brand new jeep and I asked the salesman about it. He said there was no body work or paint work on the car and when I showed him, he denied it.

Long story short, dealers can be dirtbags.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Also remember that because used cars are sold as-is, in court you would have to prove that they intentionally did not disclose past damage that they were aware of. That’s difficult for an individual and nearly impossible with a dealer because they can just play dumb. It’s one way that Carfax gets them off the hook, they can claim that by offering a Carfax it represents them disclosing the history of the car.

[umfan866]

Thank you everyone, these are great comments - will review and respond, thanks again!

[cstreit]

When you repaired your tail light, why didn’t you file a claim? Not worth the hassle right? ...it also means that damage won’t show up on the carfax.