Fatest 9mm round

[Hendog]

I'm not a spoon guy at all. I know nothing really about the hobby. Nonetheless I came across this article which I found interesting and was wondering what might the implications be? Maybe it doesn't change much in the 9mm arena, but if the technology were applied to larger ballistics (here I am sounding like I know something about this area of interest ) then it might have some advantages in the area of defense...?

From the article:
" the new and improved bullet – named P-51 – hit 2,350 FPS in recorded tests. This far exceeded the 1,454 FPS recorded from the standard U.S. Navy round. And it outperformed the civilian 9mm, which reached 1,339 FPS.

In addition, the bullet travelled true and a had very small, two-inch drop in elevation at 100 metres. The Navy round dropped roughly 10 inches, while the civilian round fell almost 20 inches. Even seasoned firearms experts say they’ve never heard of a 9mm hitting speeds like that."

https://www.design-engineering.com/canadian-bullet-design-smashes-u-s-navy-world-record-1004036298/

[masraum]

I can only assume it's a super lightweight round.

[john70t]

I'm guessing it's a mix of regular powder plus a bit of new powder on steroids as a secondary reaction. Someone mentioned old powder can be unstable and explode the barrel: that it expands too quickly. Perhaps a new chemistry found a way to stabilize it or a faster-acting oxidator is used.

[red 928]

canadian physics (don't step in it)

What makes the Unicorn Aerospace P-51 ballistic munition significant is that this extreme jump into higher velocities, intertwined with a near zero drop in kinetic energy during airborne travel over long distances, transforms this munition into an actual “aircraft platform”.

In other words, it’s able to achieve a measure of self sustainable lift until impact to the target. This breakthrough qualifies the P-51, named after the WWII fighter plane, as now being a 4th generation ballistic munition. According to the team, the key for their P-51 is in the innovative design of the slug itself, details of which are classified.

[Bill Douglas]

Could be a 9x23mm with some really fast burning powder. Or fired from a rifle will make any 9mm ammo twice or three time as fast.

[flatbutt]

Apparently bullet shape plays a large part in this but that's an incredible increase. I wonder what chamber pressure is?

[id10t]

Yeah, totally lack of any real info in the article, like what 9mm round exactly, what barrel length, etc. 350 Legend does this no problem, and it is .355 (aka 9mm).




Also calling BS on the 9x19 numbers.... from ballistics by the inch -

[DavidI]

SimX ammunition is crazy fast.
https://www.simxammo.com/products/

[KFC911]

I prefer my handspoon rounds to be big, heavy, and slow.... meh

[island911]

Originally Posted by masraum

I can only assume it's a super lightweight round.

I assume it has better aero.

The back of the typical slug has pretty much always been perplexing to me. (so aerodynamically dirty)

[oldE]

Is it possible they developed some sort of discarded sabot round with a skirt which expands in the barrel to improve sealing then drops off to leave an aerodynamic shape?

Best
Les

[HardDrive]

Is it 9x54 😆?

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by john70t

I'm guessing it's a mix of regular powder plus a bit of new powder on steroids as a secondary reaction. Someone mentioned old powder can be unstable and explode the barrel: that it expands too quickly. Perhaps a new chemistry found a way to stabilize it or a faster-acting oxidator is used.

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Apparently bullet shape plays a large part in this but that's an incredible increase. I wonder what chamber pressure is?

Agree with flatbutt - if they are using terms correctly, the 'bullet' it the thingy that comes out of the barrel. Powder mix may have something to do with it but the article specifically says bullet design (listed as "freedom seed" in the pic below):

According to the team, the key for their P-51 is in the innovative design of the slug itself

[stevej37]

I haven't figured out yet whether the OP means 'fattest or fastest'

[HardDrive]

That article is beyond worthless.

[Hendog]

Originally Posted by stevej37

I haven't figured out yet whether the OP means 'fattest or fastest'

I guess I had fat fingers on the keyboard, cause I sure ain't fast!

So, what if the claims are legitimate, as some are questioning the validity of the article. I'm not saying it is or it isn't. I'm just curious what the ramifications would be if this were to be true? Would it change anything one iota? What would a faster round change, if anything? And if it were true for a 9mm, then would it not apply to any other caliber if the same tech were applied? And again, what implications would that have? I suppose better accuracy and penetration for starters, but would it tip the "balance of power" so to speak in any great way? I'm thinking it would not in the grand scheme of things, and maybe not even in a small situation. For instance in a military confrontation where a troop came in conflict with an opposing troop, then this would lend an advantage, not necessarily decisive, given there would be to many other variables to consider.

Does a step forward of this kind make a difference if the claims are legit?

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by oldE

Is it possible they developed some sort of discarded sabot round with a skirt which expands in the barrel to improve sealing then drops off to leave an aerodynamic shape?

Best
Les

They had these in rifle rounds, but were outlawed because they left no rifling marks.

Profile photo for Joe Buettner
Joe Buettner
, translated gun manuals, tested ammunition, compiled gun laws
Answered 2 years ago · Upvoted by
Bill Caffrey
, Forty years of firearms experience; student of the gun. · Author has 1.7K answers and 14.4M answer views

.30–06 “accelerator” was an offering from Remington which put a 55 grain (3.56 gram) .224 caliber (5.7 millimeter) bullet inside a .30 caliber (~7.62 millimeter) plastic sabot, which is like a sleeve or shoe which holds bullets. This combination allowed a .30–06 Springfield cartridge to propel the bullet inside the sabot at velocities of around 4080 feet per second (~1243 meters per second). This is substantially faster than normal .30–06 velocities with heavier bullets, which average around 2800 feet per second (~853 meters per second).

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by flipper35

They had these in rifle rounds, but were outlawed because they left no rifling marks.

That's simply not true. Remington quit manufacturing them simply because they didn't work very well and never really caught on. Remington used these plastic sabots to encase 55 grain .223" dia bullets when loaded in three .30 caliber rounds, the .30-'06, .308, and .30-30. The idea was to make your big game rifle into a varmint rifle.

These were terribly inaccurate in most rifles, more or less precluding their use as varmint rifles. The plastic from the sabots left a very stubborn fouling in the barrels, which then ruined accuracy as a big game rifle. Like I said, just didn't work very well, so no one bought them, so Remington quit making them.

Plastic sabots are used to load pistol bullets in muzzle loaders. In states where this is legal for hunting, this has become the most popular way to load a muzzle loader. These plastic sabots work very well in this application, but the parameters are entirely different. Far lower pressures, far lower velocities, so they don't leave plastic smears down the barrel.

Shotguns used for deer hunting commonly use reduced caliber slugs encased in plastic sabots as well. While the old style Forster slug (which is full diameter) is still in use, the saboted slug is much more popular. The slugs look like oversized airgun pellets.

Besides, when a 55 grain .223" dia bullet traveling at 4,000 fps hits something, it totally disintegrates anyway. It's meant to, so it's very damaging to small varmints. The hope is that unlike big game hunting, any hit anywhere will be instantly fatal. We're shooting very small targets at very long range, so we don't have the option of aiming for the "vitals". They are simply too small. We want any hit to do the job, and we achieve that with extremely frangible bullets. There simply won't be big enough pieces of the bullet left from which to discern any rifling marks, assuming we find any pieces at all.

So, no, plastic sabots were never made illegal because they don't allow for rifling marks on bullets. Pure internet myth.

[Jeff Higgins]

I bet this single press release, published in a number ron non-shooting publications, is the last we hear of this. It's clearly sheer and utter bullschitt. Things as simple as the use of common ballistics terminology are lacking, with some less than knowledgable hack having written this for a less than knowledgable audience.

"Navy" vs. "civilian" rounds, for instance. There are no super special super lethal rounds available to the armed forces. Everything they use is commonly available to civilians. As a matter of fact, civilian self defense and hunting ammo is vastly superior to anything any military uses.

I would love to see this stuff presented to the gun press for a serious evaluation. I'll bet anyone a new hat it never winds up in their hands.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

That's simply not true. Remington quit manufacturing them simply because they didn't work very well and never really caught on. Remington used these plastic sabots to encase 55 grain .223" dia bullets when loaded in three .30 caliber rounds, the .30-'06, .308, and .30-30. The idea was to make your big game rifle into a varmint rifle.

These were terribly inaccurate in most rifles, more or less precluding their use as varmint rifles. The plastic from the sabots left a very stubborn fouling in the barrels, which then ruined accuracy as a big game rifle. Like I said, just didn't work very well, so no one bought them, so Remington quit making them.

Plastic sabots are used to load pistol bullets in muzzle loaders. In states where this is legal for hunting, this has become the most popular way to load a muzzle loader. These plastic sabots work very well in this application, but the parameters are entirely different. Far lower pressures, far lower velocities, so they don't leave plastic smears down the barrel.

Shotguns used for deer hunting commonly use reduced caliber slugs encased in plastic sabots as well. While the old style Forster slug (which is full diameter) is still in use, the saboted slug is much more popular. The slugs look like oversized airgun pellets.

Besides, when a 55 grain .223" dia bullet traveling at 4,000 fps hits something, it totally disintegrates anyway. It's meant to, so it's very damaging to small varmints. The hope is that unlike big game hunting, any hit anywhere will be instantly fatal. We're shooting very small targets at very long range, so we don't have the option of aiming for the "vitals". They are simply too small. We want any hit to do the job, and we achieve that with extremely frangible bullets. There simply won't be big enough pieces of the bullet left from which to discern any rifling marks, assuming we find any pieces at all.

So, no, plastic sabots were never made illegal because they don't allow for rifling marks on bullets. Pure internet myth.

Yeah, I remembered that was rumor after I posted (as that was a long time ago), but I forgot to come back to rectify so thanks.