Revelation about self driving cars

[stomachmonkey]

They can repossess themselves.

[Bill Douglas]

Friday night they have a mind of their own.

You start yelling "No! I don't want to go to the pub, I want to go to a nice restaurant." The car says "STFU" and drives you to the pub.

[sc_rufctr]

As it turns out building a self driving car is a lot harder than they thought it would be. (Ask Elon)

We'll get there eventually. At that point they will be able to "instruct" a car to do anything they want and in theory from anywhere on the planet. I don't know if that's such a great idea.

[stealthn]

Just wait till someone weaponizes one of them…

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

As it turns out building a self driving car is a lot harder than they thought it would be. (Ask Elon)

We'll get there eventually. At that point they will be able to "instruct" a car to do anything they want and in theory from anywhere on the planet. I don't know if that's such a great idea.

the main problem with self driving cars, is liability.
especially on roads that are shared with non self driving cars, and pedestrians.
Sooner or later there will be a situation, where the Car will find itself doing a certain speed where it carries enough energy to do damage.

In a scenario with 100% self driving car:
Let's say it has 3 occupants. Aged 70 84 and 69

And suddenly something happens, not predictable.. For instance a Plane is crash landing on the road, and is about to collide with the car. The pilot had a bird strike and full loss of power.

The Car has 3 choices
1 Do nothing. Collide with the plane, Risk of getting occupants killed is 90% 65% and 40% per occupant. and 100% to the 2 occupants of the plane
car says, I'm not making any decision, the rule of AI is not to do anything if it may harm humans.. I'm leaving this one to chance, I didn't cause it, i'm not going to influence it.

2 Veer off to the left, where there is a concrete wall 100% 75% 60% risk of death to car occupants (no risk to others) , The Car decides those old wankers have had a full life and its better to save the others.. hah.

3 Veer off to the right, Where there is a young mother with 2 children in a stroller
0%0%0% But 100% 100% 100% the mother and children will be dead.
Car says, Gotta save my owner. Above all.

How will you deal with that choice as a manufacturer/programmer?
How will you program the cars self driving logic
Who will be liable for the outcome of that, how will that pan out in court?
Can't blame the occupants, they are just sitting there.
Can't blame the aircraft for the crash landing, it was a bird strike, he did the best he could
Can't blame the mother, she was just walking there, minding her own business

And sure it's a far fetched scenario, but you must admit, if you wait long enough, and enough self driving cars come out, sooner or later something like this will happen.


Situation 1 , estate of the cars occupants sue car oem for loss of life?
PR mess your self driving car will not do anything to save your life
Who will buy such a car?? Marketing Suicide

Situation 2 , estate of the cars occupants sue car oem for loss of life?
PR mess your selfdriving car will kill you to save others
Who will buy such a car?? Marketing Suicide


Situation 3 , the family of the poor mother and children sue owner of car and occupants annd OEM for loss of life
PR Mess AI car kills innocent mother and children to save rich geriatric owners
What governement will allow such a car on their roads? Homologation legislation suicide.

This is a No-Win situation to the OEM

So 100% Self driving cars, never going to happen on public roads. the Liability of it all can't be managed.

OEM's will at all times state that the driver is still responsible and must pay attention..
and the poor schmuck who trusts the car to drive while he takes a nap or reads a news paper.. Will always be the one that ends up on the chopping block whenever something goes wrong

The only alternative to this, is building in constraints
Like severely limited speeds and limits to what circumstances it can be automatic(to the point where it will never really be enabled or becomes a dead slow mode of transport)
Dedicated roads that are deconflicted from other types of traffic and pedestrians (no room in cities for that, + massive cost to infra)

In the above scenario, if a human is doing the driving.
NOBODY can blame him for plowing over the mother and children in a freak reaction to a plane in his windscreen.

The argument will simply be:
Well he was stuck between a rock and a hardplace.. split second reaction, you cannot blame somebody for instinctive self preservation, it was a terrible situation and there wasn't going to be any winners no matter what anybody did.

It only becomes a no win liability problem when the car is driven by programmable logic and that logic makes the call.
Because that means the OEM made it do that, and the same logic applies on all other cars of the same model/brand/firmware.

[Aurel]

How about the car makers get full liability protection like the vaccine makers…?
If the big Pharma companies can do it, I am sure the big automakers can too.
It only takes money to buy the right people.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Aurel

snip.

apples and cantiloops, let's not Parf it up

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by Aurel

How about the car makers get full liability protection like the vaccine makers…?
If the big Pharma companies can do it, I am sure the big automakers can too.
It only takes money to buy the right people.

Was going to reply with something really witty involving Dr. Fauci, kickbacks and political favoritism...but noticed this isn’t PARF, so I will refrain.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stealthn

Just wait till someone weaponizes one of them…

Good point. Something important that needs to be included is some pretty hefty security so they aren't hacked and then weaponized. And I would be pretty shocked if there was much security baked in.

[sc_rufctr]

Securing a system is often done after it's been hacked and people have already hacked smart cars.

But so far I haven't heard of anything about a Tesla being compromised.

[svandamme]

just put a flipping monkey in the trunk.
end of.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by masraum

Good point. Something important that needs to be included is some pretty hefty security so they aren't hacked and then weaponized. And I would be pretty shocked if there was much security baked in.

No matter how well secured it can be hacked. The IRS, Apple, Microsoft, Dept of Defense, and on and on have been hacked. Heck cars are hacked now, just look at what the GM On-star system can do, shut the car down remotely, and there are many manufacturers with that type of communications to a car.

We can all hope they have security as a top priority.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by svandamme

just put a flipping monkey in the trunk.
end of.

With a shotgun like Beaumont from Jackie Brown?

[svandamme]

Well Trunk Monkey had different responses for different threats.
versatile was the word.

[svandamme]

Also , Imagine a self driving car
Imagine the police wanting to arrest somebody with a self driving car

Now obviously, the police never makes any mistakes, and this would never happen to anybody innocent, nor would any system ever get crossed and do this to person A when B is targetted by the pohlice.

You're just getting into your car, you say Take me home, and read your news paper.
Then suddenly notice car taking wrong turn
not responding
and driving you through the gates of the local Jail where a bunch of cops are awaiting your ass with extreme prejudice.

Nope.. I'm not buying no self driving car, ever.
I already hate my current bimmers speed assist, and lane assist nonsense.

If I wanted public transport, i'de get a bus pass or call a cab. I don't want public transport imma garage.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by stealthn

Just wait till someone weaponizes one of them…

This has been my thought, although I'd not considered weaponizing one of them, but thousands.

Imagine hackers gaining control of thousands of self-driving cars at the same time.

_

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

No matter how well secured it can be hacked. The IRS, Apple, Microsoft, Dept of Defense, and on and on have been hacked. Heck cars are hacked now, just look at what the GM On-star system can do, shut the car down remotely, and there are many manufacturers with that type of communications to a car.

We can all hope they have security as a top priority.

Every single bit of code that is written can be compromised.

Layered approaches do slow things down hopefully enough to make the effort not worth the result.

I did a couple of years in the software defense industry.

DOD were one of our biggest clients.

I would have been fine never learning how porous they are, or were at the time.

Hopefully things have improved in 2 decades.

Government really needs to revisit their recreational use policies.

They miss out on a ton of top tier talent over smoking a plant on the weekends.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Securing a system is often done after it's been hacked and people have already hacked smart cars.

But so far I haven't heard of anything about a Tesla being compromised.

Oops... I just remembered. There's an active community out there using the Tesla running gear and batteries from wrecked cars for self built EVs. They have also hacked the Tesla operating system so they can change settings and fast charge their cars.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by svandamme

Also , Imagine a self driving car
Imagine the police wanting to arrest somebody with a self driving car

Now obviously, the police never makes any mistakes, and this would never happen to anybody innocent, nor would any system ever get crossed and do this to person A when B is targetted by the pohlice.

You're just getting into your car, you say Take me home, and read your news paper.
Then suddenly notice car taking wrong turn
not responding
and driving you through the gates of the local Jail where a bunch of cops are awaiting your ass with extreme prejudice.

Nope.. I'm not buying no self driving car, ever.
I already hate my current bimmers speed assist, and lane assist nonsense.

If I wanted public transport, i'de get a bus pass or call a cab. I don't want public transport imma garage.

I suspect in the future of true self driving cars, with no controls for a human driver, only people that drive a lot will have a car of their own. I can see a Uber like service. Pull up an app, and get in a car to take you to your destination. With thousands of cars in the system it should not take long to have a car show up. You get to the destination, and a different vehicle takes you back.

They would have to have different levels of service. Pay for premium service and it will be a nice clean car that is cleaned out and sanitized regularly. The low end will be the typical taxi of today with who knows what on the seats, and less than optimal cleanness.

One could hire a lot of rides for the average cost of owning, insuring a maintaining a car. Much less storing it safely or having to pay for parking. I know some people now that go downtown to go out to eat, and have a few cocktails. They have Uber drop them off, and no parking problems. To go home no drunk driving problems.

That will be many year off I suspect. Hopefully by the time I am too old to drive.

[911 Rod]

^^^ Sort of like the borrow a bike program they have in Toronto.
Actually I believe they have the same program for cars too.