College debt and how to reduce cost
 

I was going to carry over some of the conversation from the "dark side" in a thread I started that went sideways in a good way but Seahawk pooched it! :D

Z-man mentioned student loan forgiveness in my thread. From there I said that I felt part of the problem is the mandatory coursework that a college requires to make a "well rounded student". I feel that we could reduce student debt simply by giving the student more choice in the coursework. Colleges, in my opinion, should exist to prepare a person for the work in their degree field.

A few felt that the mandatory liberal arts classes were beneficial to their development as a person. I don't disagree with things like music, art, poetry, history and other subjects being part of an education. I just feel that it shouldn't be mandatory that a person be strapped with college debt if those subjects aren't something they are really interested in. My point was that it should be up to the student to determine if those things are important enough for them to pay for those classes or if they'd rather apply the money for those classes towards degree specific classes.

From my own experience, I enjoy art, music of all genres (and I do mean all), poetry, history and many other things without ever attending college to gain an appreciation for them. They were things I found interesting. They are things that I tried to introduce my kids to as well. I think that's partly why my oldest daughter said she would have rather had the money for certain required classes go towards her degree specific coursework.

So what do you guys say? Should students be required to take classwork they aren't necessarily interested in? Keep in mind that kids today are exposed to more things through the internet so they probably have a better feel for what they like or don't like.

I would like to point out that if people here in OT could have seen the discussion that took place, you'd find that there can indeed be good discussions over on the dark side.

I was not a good student and struggled through high school due to lack of interest. As we age, my interests are similar to ones you mentioned, history, arts and even some of the things that end with "ologies", cultural type stuff.

As a young buck, not if you they have to pay for it especially if its an expensive private school. I think you will get a different answer from a starving student then a financially established middle age or old man. We had to take three, a semester worth of absolutely worthless upper division humanity types classes jsut so we can move on with our lives. Oh yeah, it was mandatory and we had to pay for them. They sprung that on us couple years back. We were pissed to say the least. I ended up taking some type of religious studies class which I had to force myself to forget everything that was taught in that class. The other was artist from the St Lawrence River area. I forgoteen about the third one, but what a complete waste of time and money. Plus, live in the west coast, so what the hell do I care about the St Lawrence River? Many of us stuck it through because it was the last hurdle before we start working to earn money just so we can have a life.

Now, I say it great bit it should be offer or taken at a community college at a discounted rate, 30-50 bucks a unit?

Other that that, it is robbery just like making doming mandatory for freshmen. Oh, you gotta to pay for that too doesn't matter if you live 10 min from school. Spread those cheeks.

The college I work for used to be a community college then we started offering a few BAS degrees (Batch of Applied Science - think about a double AS degree for getting good jobs doing software dev, nursing, etc), and we're not legally allowed to call ourselves a community college...

But we're just shy of $100/credit hour for in-state tuition. Good news, is that our AA degrees take care of all of those "well rounding" courses at UF ("the other school in town") or any other state Uni in Florida. Undergrad courses at "the other school in town" are about $300/credit hour.

Also, a lot of the BS things we have students do like Life Skills or Violence Awareness are little courses in our LMS that students need to complete some of before registering, some of before registering for 2nd or 3rd term, some before graduation, some only if they are international students, etc. And, we don't charge for 'em. (They drive me nutz since I'm the guy that does the middleware to pull results, manage enrollements etc).

The only other BS "well rounding" things we do are involved with various classes (like when you take certain courses like ENC1101 or College Algebra you are added to a cohort that does some special tracking of your progress and issues early alerts to both you, your instructors and your advisors)

We have bridge programs to degree tracks at UF - like our Gator Engineering program. You apply to UF Engineering, you are accepted for a future date, and you get to take the weed out classes and geneds (college chemistry 1 &2, college fizzicks 1 and 2, math thru Calc w/ Diff Eq) at lesser cost and with 25 students per class and instructors where just about everyone either is a native english speaker or they are at least clear and fluent and everything they say will be understandable.... and after your first 2 years, you get to go to the big school....

We appear to be very similar. I had a tough time through school mostly because I wasn't interested. I often lament my youth and how I was in school because there are some things I wish I had paid more attention to. Poetry and music were really my two interests in H.S. Poetry mostly because the girls liked. Music because I had a music teacher that made classical music really cool.

Hold up.. I didn't say it was a replacement. I said they are exposed to more things and have a better feel for what they like.
Take your experience with PPGS, you say it "reinvigorated my love for..." You knew it was something you might like. You saw value in that course, so you took it because it was of interest to you. That's a good thing! That's money well spent.

I think if a student is degree focused, then that's the coursework they should be allowed to take to get them to their degree and into the workforce as quickly as possible.

My eyes were really opened to some of this from my son's experience as well. He was going to school to become a RN. RN only requires an associates degree but very few schools offer an associates degree for nursing. The difference in pay from associates and bachelors degree is negligible locally. He struggled in some of the coursework, nothing truly related to nursing, and ended up dropping out of the program. Not really disappointed since I knew that wasn't his real passion... but still.

The most competent RNs are those that can think critically, prioritize, communicate and are not prone to playing their get out of jail free card of 3 magic words--"I'm not comfortable."

Most newly minted 2 year RNs are several years at best from any of those. Most BSN are way ahead of them in this respect. The difference is education and maturity vs training.

Yeah, but you are still a lot smarter then me. Poetry? Only if someone explain it to me right after they read 'em. :D

If I has more time, after I retire in a few more years, I like to take some of those mindless classes. Its a complete turn around compared to when I was in school, tech based classes for better employment opportunities. Geology, geography, cultural anthropology and a boat load of history classes and of course gender study.:D All right, all right, I'm only kidding. I am not sure about reading books after books on history because that can get real boring quickly.

My sister is an RN and charge nurse now for Keck Medical Center here in LA. She may disagree with you on this matter. What matter is the experiences gain in the field that they can or need to read a patient's well being so they can be saved in a certain situation. Code red will make them jump like you have never seen before. No thinking required, its automatic after a few years into the job.

I agree with electives classes and that make us well rounded. There's are two side to this answer. I had to take a PE class when I was going to community college. HAD to take PE? I was already racing road bikes for 5 years by then so I could care less, so I opted for Tennis only because blowing was full. All other have said, bowling becasue its easy, indoors with AC, hang out and have a good time. That was the first time I actually hit a tennis ball and the last time when semester ended. I could have used those two hours building cabinets in my little shop making money to feed myself or help pay for my little sister's tuition. If I had to do it again, given the choice, I rather not waste my time with PE. Hell, I even took an meditation class and film history. All I did in meditation was sit there and fall sleep in the gym with lights out. Sure, I learn how to clear my mind, Hell, there aint anything between my eye anyway so there's that. Not one I meditated again since. Film? I did learn who Buster Keaton was as well as a few famous folks. That to me, its like learning about the Kadasians. Famous people.

And yet, the pay is relatively close. You'd think with all the added "value" of a BSN, there would be a pay advantage. Again locally that advantage does not exist. I can't speak to nationally but I would guess it extends to other areas. The biggest benefit is that a BSN can move into management... if that's a benefit at all. Many wouldn't want that headache.

On average, the pay difference is $3.00 per hour. Is an additional MINIMUM of 30K in student loan debt worth $3 per hour more?

What are RNs pay out where you are?

My sister had been making great money, even before she was a charge nurse. now, she clears over 130 but with overtime, its in the 150 range. I understand the RNs at a clinic just giving injections and such do not get pay that much. Two years experience at a hospital, out out to LA, she will hire then on the spot with a short interview. I think sing on bonus of 5k too but they must stay for 18 months. I think it pays 80k+ to start? will find out if you like next time I see her?

^^^
And yet... the pay difference is on average $3.00 per hour.

I know this for a fact that they will not hire without a Bachelor degree even if they passed the state's RN exam.

Will find out for ya next week when I see her.

I really don't know what the starting pay is here. My wife doesn't really work overtime. No weekends, no holidays. She has a nice gig. BSN for her. But she has said the only reason she has a BSN is because at the time, that's what was strongly recommended. If she was getting into nursing today, she'd save the money and get the associates degree.

At a time where we still have nursing shortages? That's nuts.

Before the pandemic, retiring nurses outpaced new entrants. Could that have something to do with the cost of education and the minimal amount of increase in average pay?

Sorry, that wasn't directed towards you. That was directed more to the quote about BSN lowering the mortality rate following common surgeries. It would be interesting to know what the pay difference is. But again what I'm quoting is a national average.

It's all about dollars and cents to me. Those dollars and cents need to make sense from a ROI standpoint. That's the business owner in me. To me, "well rounded" sounds like fluff or something a salesman will tell you as part of a hard sales pitch.

'Bout 5-8 years ago, they were recruiting nurses from India. A few were working at her hospital and busted their asses according to my sis. Not sure if they were RNs or not. What's wrong with our girls? Why aren't they getting work? She couldn't answer me and it was all coming from up top. She's wasn't a charge nurse then.

As someone who just finished an ADN program I think I can chime in on the Nurse stuff.

Here in South Carolina, you can be hired without a BSN.

Starting pay is $28/hr with $1/hr more if you have a BSN.

To get my ADN I took almost enough credit hours for a Bachelors. One more year of classes and a Bachelors is mine. My long term plans did not include working for a hospital as a nurse so I am currently working on my Bachelors in Business Management not Nursing.

Why do we have nursing shortages?

Average nursing class starts with 400 students. 60-80 graduate. That is all programs, ADN and BSN.

Nurses have a saying "eating the young" and nursing schools are a perfect example of old school nurses making life difficult for the sake of being difficult. I saw people who were brilliant with patients and couldn't pass the tests from the classes. Teachers usually have been out of the nursing for years. They use outdated medical information and do not take kindly to you pointing it out.

An example is: I work for a medical device company that treats epilepsy. As we were learning about epilepsy, they taught this technology that I see working everyday was experimental. I was reprimanded for pointing out its been used since 1997, hardly experimental.

I could share stories from other nursing schools that are similar.

Tests in Nursing school are unlike any other: Most questions all the answers are technically correct. You must pick the one that is "most correct."

Stephanie,
Thanks for chiming in! I was really hoping when the conversation turned to nursing that you'd comment!

Here is the trap - you are assuming every kid knows what they want to do entering college. Today most freshman major in "I don't know or I changed my mind".

I wanted to be an engineer from the get go. I hated high school and couldn't wait to get out of college. I had a simple path: my parents had no money to send me to school and loans were out of the question. Not smart enough or athletic enough for scholarship money. My dad gave me $80 for college and told me I'm on my own. Went to a Community college and U of I at Chicago. worked summers and paid my way. Nice story: this was between 1968 and 1972. A long time ago when college was affordable. Northwestern University in Evanston was $2000/yr.

Times change: I had the mind set everyone knew what they wanted to be going into college. I can tell you that is not the majority. And college costs have gone up and up. And some majors take long than the 4 years. One of the reasons is class scheduling - you miss the opportunity and you may need t o wait a semester or too when it is offered again. To me, it is a subtle way of paying more to the college.

I made a commitment to my son undergrad was on his mom and me, Grad school on him. It isn't easy and the way the system is set up - it is expensive.

The best path, IMO, is go to a community college and spend 2 years trying to figure out what is of interest to you and then go beyond. Might take a little longer but this is a marathon, not a sprint. And I am a fan of liberal arts education - there are too many success stories out there.

My first is headed to college in a couple months. Insanely expensive. But then if he sticks with the current major and manages a good gpa he'll likely earn 80-90k first year out. His debt is gonna be a little more than one year's salary. live cheap for 2 or 3 years and get it knocked out. docs do this for even longer. have been for some time.

Anyways my thinking is if you truly want to reduce college costs you max ANY borrowing for college at $15-20k per year. As in not legal to loan more regardless of the borrowers financial condition. this 'how much can you borrow' approach colleges use for setting tuition is simply a lost cause.

Depending on the young person, I agree. After I was injured in college I tutored at two JC's in the Bay Area, Chabot and Ohlone. They are both now 4 year colleges.

I tutored a mix of athletes and regular students in economics and finance, all basic 101/2 stuff.

They were all excellent and got a lot of mandatory liberal arts class wok completed very cheaply...and most went direct into the University of California system as juniors.

As I wrote in Cab's earlier thread (before I gooned it) I had a professor in econ that recommended we all take a speech class and an acting class: "Learn how to present your thoughts and pretend to care"...words to that effect.

He was right.

BTW, thanks for the insight, Stephanie, on nursing. I had no idea.

I think the reputation of good hourly pay for shift work attracts a fair number of less than exceptional people. People who underestimate the difficulty of the coursework. In lower income somewhat rural areas nursing is a perceived 'out' for people who think they aren't smart enough to do a 4yr college and don't want to be cops.

The perception seems to be if it is taught at a community college then anyone can do it and the dollar store isn't hiring right now so might as well give it a shot.

Not really making that assumption. I know young adults change course in college and often their major changes. This is where I think K-12 needs to improve.

A 17/18 year old person should have some sense of direction. At the H.S my kids attended, they're doing "internships" in their senior year. This wasn't the case six years ago when my oldest graduated. I think the exposure they get is helping kids decide on a major. I know in my youngest daughter's case it seems to have helped as she interned with my SIL, a nurse practitioner, which gave her interest in being NP.

I did the same as you with each of my three kids regarding undergrad. DEFINITELY not easy or cheap. My son opted to transition from college into the workforce so he gets to pocket what's left of his 529 or I suggested he leave it there in case he decides there's something he'd like to take to advance himself in his field of choice. He's planning to attend a class on vinyl wrapping vehicles. I told him that cost is covered! He smiled.

BTW, I like your idea on utilizing community colleges more. It made me think of something my orthopedic surgeon said to me that I found funny/interesting is "no one ever asks me where I went to school or what I scored on my exam". I think that was his way of saying the school doesn't ultimately matter.

One thing I was unaware of until recently is that student loans can go towards housing. I get that housing is kind of important but it surprised me that a person could use student loans for rent. Seems that might go a small ways in explaining why apartments are so expensive near colleges. It's going on a student loan!

BTW, thanks to Seahawk and Berettafan for chiming in on this thread. Both contributed to the earlier thread and I was hoping they would find this thread.

After 31 years of working with RNs, I've seen plenty of automatic jumping. After about 5 minutes, it's not helpful.

Cab this might be silly but you made my day. Suggesting i contributed to a discussion on something very important...and somewhat in opposition to your own feelings...well dude i'm humbled and grateful. Thank you.

I really liked your comments in the other thread and found them thought provoking. I liked Eric’s, Seahawk’s and even Fint’s contributions as well. It’s funny how the conversation took a right turn from the subject and evolved int a good discussion unrelated to the thread subject.

and your position grabbed my attention too! it's a real problem and it makes total sense to question the wisdom of excess classes when you're paying the equivalent of a starter home to take them. wish this topic would get more traction in the media and congress.

My daughter is an RN with a community college degree. Never had a problem finding a job. I don't think she feels deprived for not having taken a course in women's studies..

She's worked in many areas of medicine..ER, obstetrics, surgery, etc. Right now, in her early 50's, she combined her computer skill and understanding of medical terminolgy to work as a consultant, travelling to various USA locations, upgrading hospitals medical records systems. Don't ask me to explain beyond that...most of what she does flies right over my numb skull. But I can say the pay level is VERY good.

Everyone should have to take at least one course, and really should take many, on learning how to analyze issues, think critically and more importantly, how to change an opinion based on a clearly laid out set of facts (this cuts both ways). This could come in many different kinds of classes and course structures and majors from trades to community college to college. Want to call it Problem Solving 101? Sure. Philosophy. OK. Logic and Critical Thinking. Great. An analysis of form and vision in Chekhov's major plays. Why not. Robotics Engineering & AI. Absolutely. Organic Chemistry. Of course. And so on.

Our country has lost the ability to think.

I'll throw in a couple more observations about college and money:

Many years ago I went to NC State right out of high school. The tuition was not terrible (about $900/semester) and I paid out of pocket myself. All my professors there had written their own textbooks. You would buy the book and resell at the end of the semester. I left after my freshman year (met my husband, who was in the Army, and followed him with a Change in Duty Station to Ft. Benning)

Spent the next 20 or so years being a SAHM. As you all know, as son entered college so did I for nursing. Started at a tech school where the tuition per semester was more than my whole year at NCSU. Now at 4-year state school. I have not had a single prof who has written their own text book. Textbooks now are either loose leaf packs of pages you need a 3-ring binder for or digital. There is no selling back the books. I find the work load more intense now. Lots of what I consider busy work with no redeeming value. I do think the profs are more accessible now. And I do feel like if I needed more help, most would have no problem meeting with me.

Here in SC, during Covid the state started offering free tuition at Tech Schools. No idea how long that will last but that would certainly help with some cost issues. Here in SC, the lottery pays some tuition costs if you went to a SC high school and had good enough grades. Depending on scores you would get $1000 a year or $6500/ year with an additional $3500 if you had a STEM major. So my son has been attending a state engineering program where the lottery has paid $10,000/ year toward tuition. That goes a long way.

But tuition isn't the only cost: the engineering dept charges $1500/semester in fees. No idea what those fees go to and a professor is currently suing under a FOIA to find out where the money is going. I am sure these fees are common everywhere.

Dorms are, for the most part, not owned by the universities anymore. They are outsourced to private companies and rent in those dorms can easily be thousands more than tuition. They have pools, game rooms, Starbucks etc. All that adds to the cost.

This. Those "unnecessary" courses are also the important ones. When you hire a bachelor degree holder, or masters degree holder, particularly from a good university, you are doing so because of the likelihood that what you are getting is superior to someone who just completed a 2-year community college program.

One of my degrees came from Gonzaga University. GU is very keen on these "unnecessary" courses. Coincidentally, GU is also known for preparing some very productive and well-balanced professional workers.

In addition to statistics, I am very fold of organizational behavior studies and human resource management. In my opinion, the thing that separates the excellent companies from the rest is very simple. The people. Every company's competitive advantage comes from its people. Some companies understand that, and some do not.

Some educational degrees are cheaper than others. Those degree holders are also less expensive. But just not a particularly good deal, in my view.

I think that pretty well sums it up. 20K per year to play the game. There have to be better ways.

Don't get me wrong Supe, I'm not saying they're "unnecessary" I'm just saying that a person should have a choice in the matter. I'm not sure that an Engineer really needs to have an appreciation modern dance. That's all I'm saying.